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Old 2010-04-06, 14:54   Link #22921
bladeofdarkness
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so in addition to finding out that he was using her and her people from the start for his OWN goals (with freeing japan being just a part of it)
and the fact that he had a part in what happened to euphie
and the fact that he just up and left them in the middle of their battle for independence

he also ended up threatening both Suzaku AND her with a bomb for no apparent reason (she's on his side after all)
and the moment she runs away is RIGHT AFTER Suzaku throws away that bomb and points out that he (Lelouch) had used her and the japanese to his own goals

she wasn't exactly thinking clearly at that point
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Old 2010-04-06, 18:04   Link #22922
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
she wasn't exactly thinking clearly at that point
Well, neither was Lelouch when Nunnally was kidnapped, so... I think the comparison works.
But yeah, true.
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Old 2010-04-06, 21:31   Link #22923
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To my mind it's sorta like when life throws you a curve. Sometimes you just roll wit it, but other times it's such a shock that you literally run away just so you don't have to deal with it!
In Kallen's case it was just such a shock! Yeah, she did "drop the ball" but I have to ask this; What would you have done?
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Old 2010-04-06, 21:35   Link #22924
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
You know, some people are amazing and have a perfect control over their feelings. Those are the same people who thank Kallen was dumb both in Stage 25 and in Turn 19.

You have this girl who discovers her idol was a man she despised at school, that her ideol has been using people and using somr kind of screwed up power to create some massacre, and despite this, this girl should still stand by this man side no matter what.

Kallen was shocked and yet, people are hoping she might be able to act like a person whose got her fullsense.
LOL. It wasn't a point of emotional attachment to Suzaku. WTH does this idea come from ? It is all about Lelouch, Zero and her, who feels like having killed people because she was manipulated.
Suzaku has nothing to do with that, he is just using the right words, and what he and she, thinks is the truth.

This is the moment where I laugh.
And this is the moment when you can notice that everything is fine to blame Kallen. Cause she would have been blamed even if she had pick the opposite choice.
She was shocked AFTER Suzaku shot Zero in the face. She didn't make any effort to stop Suzaku from shooting Zero, that's my issue with her. I know there was no emotional attachment between the two, whatever there was as a result of their going to school together, and bonding time in kamine island was gone the moment he decided to execute her. This is exactly why she should not have hesitated and told Suzaku to drop his weapon or be shot, and if he pushed it then he should've shot him.
Btw, Lelouch didn't manipulate her into killing people, that's choice she made herself. She bought into his more blood for blood already spilled logic. Not to mention that Zero legitimately told her she could back out if she wanted.
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Old 2010-04-07, 04:11   Link #22925
Lolipopo
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
I still don't think she deserves a free pass for this just like Lelouch doesn't deserve a free pass for abandoning his army for Nunally.

Granted Kallen suddenly learns that someone she doesn't like is Zero, but I didn't get the sense she hated Lelouch, just that she was disappointed in him after what he said in Stage 9.

He does dismiss her concerns, but he also claims that Japan will be freed because of him.

Keep in mind this is all in the wake of Euphemia seemingly going ax-crazy and murdering civilians, with Lelouch killing her in "retaliation." Suzaku's little rant at the start of the scene is nowhere near enough for anyone not aware of Geass to understand what it is, let alone that it was Lelouch's fault that Euphemia did what she did.

As well, nothing is said about Lelouch being a prince, so she can't assume he created Zero as a means to grab power, at least not any more so than the next person.

I'm not saying she should accept all of this obediently by any means, but regardless of what was said in the cave, it was still blatantly obvious that the Japanese people needed Zero and whatever he was revealled to be here was still the lesser of two evils by leagues.
Yeah and that is said from an external point of view. No one said she deserved a free pass, but fact is while we are watching the scene, we have an emotional/impulsive girl who is living it.
It's not exactly the same.

She ran away cause at this very moment, it was just too much to take for her. Very un-Kallen~ish if you ask me (And I thought she'd be the one to shoot, so I was really surprised to see that) but it works nonetheless.

We know they needed Zero, and she knows that too, as she said in R2. But at this very moment, it's just like Milly told her in episode 9, when things are getting accumulated, you end up down on your knees. That was basically what happened there, she was overwhelmed by news and she had nothing left but two choices.
Save Lelouch, who she just learnt, was using her, got a weird power, wants to make a carpaccio of all of them, or run away.

It's not like if she had picked up the worst choice : Helping Suzaku ( What ? Had I been at her place I would have kicked Lelouch's butt, so yeah), she simply run away cause without any delay left to think, it was the most natural thing to do there.
Kallen isn't a Mary Sue and she is by no means perfect. She is a soldier, she killed people and she made wrong choices. Anyway, her choice was perfectly understable from the pov of the character who is in action.
I don't think I would have been able to think straight at her place either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist
She was shocked AFTER Suzaku shot Zero in the face. She didn't make any effort to stop Suzaku from shooting Zero, that's my issue with her. I know there was no emotional attachment between the two, whatever there was as a result of their going to school together, and bonding time in kamine island was gone the moment he decided to execute her. This is exactly why she should not have hesitated and told Suzaku to drop his weapon or be shot, and if he pushed it then he should've shot him.
Btw, Lelouch didn't manipulate her into killing people, that's choice she made herself. She bought into his more blood for blood already spilled logic. Not to mention that Zero legitimately told her she could back out if she wanted.
Then you problem isn't that she ran away ? That's fine then, I can understand what's your problem is now.
The thing is, it's the classica revelation moment, the character can kill someone and yet he doesn't cause it deserves the plot. I think that's what happened there, nothing more, nothing less.

Or if we really wanna grap at straws I'd say she was already shaken by the fact something was wrong with Zero, like Ogi said, and this tied to Suzaku's words, to her questions about Zero and so on lead her to drove more of an emotional reponse that a physical one.
Or maybe she knew it wasn't going to kill Zero and it was only about seeing his face; I don't remember the convo of this scene, But I think that might work. Had Kallen believe Zero was in danger, I'm sure she would have reacted, like she did countless times in the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune
Well, neither was Lelouch when Nunnally was kidnapped, so... I think the comparison works.
But yeah, true.
Wait. We have a leader and a subodinate. It doesn't work this way. The leader is way more responsible of his actions than the subordinate ever will.
It's even a rule in law :P (Actually, the leader is the one responsible for his subordinate actions. So If I wanna use my lawyer brain...Lelouch has to bear Kallen's mistake on his shoulder. Bah, more or less, at his point...: D)
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Old 2010-04-07, 06:06   Link #22926
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
Wait. We have a leader and a subodinate. It doesn't work this way. The leader is way more responsible of his actions than the subordinate ever will.
It's even a rule in law :P (Actually, the leader is the one responsible for his subordinate actions. So If I wanna use my lawyer brain...Lelouch has to bear Kallen's mistake on his shoulder. Bah, more or less, at his point...: D)
In that case, Suzaku can't be blamed for 90% of the mistakes he made. He just did what his superiors wanted him to do.

I'm far from an expert in law, but I'm pretty sure you can be sentenced even if you were just following orders, depending on the circumstances. Lelouch told Kallen she could back out if she wanted to, yet she didn't. Kallen was also ready to kill long before Lelouch came along, and even without his orders, she was thinking of getting rid of her friends from the student council more than once to keep her secrets safe or to dispose of Euphie's knight. It's once thing to kill on the battlefield, and another to cut the throat of someone who trusts you - especially if it's a civilian.

Now, Kallen had her reasons, but I believe every person is responsible for their actions, orders or not. It's too convenient an excuse for someone who prefers to not think for themselves.
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Old 2010-04-07, 06:26   Link #22927
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In fact, my Kallen suffer for what she did.

Only a real sociopath or a people with a past of complete suffering can be totally indifferent to kill people.
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Old 2010-04-07, 08:17   Link #22928
Sanger Zonvolt
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Kallen's past wasn't one of much suffering or terrible atrocities, yet she could kill so casually.

I guess it was just in her nature.
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Old 2010-04-07, 09:58   Link #22929
Arbitres
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...You people are giving me a headache... Narr.

Kallen didn't kill 'naturally', she knew HOW to kill. Cut a person's throat and they bleed to death, shoot them with the machine gun of a KMF, and they are shredded by the slugs. It's logic.

Let me use some dialogue from the first episode. The very first.

"We got the gas, why don't we use it here?!"

"Because that'd mean a bloodbath!"

For someone so casual about manslaughter, she seemed offended when Nagata suggested using the 'gas' in Tokyo Settlement -- Tokyo Settlement being where Britannians lived.

How, exactly, does that seem casual? Let's not forget when Zero comes along and after Narita, at the port battle she says "I was alright with the killing." Read in between the lines, the context is the answer. She didn't approve of it, but she did it.

Let me explain: If she was naturally killing people, how come she seemed against it? Yes she almost pulled wetwork on Shirley when she asked her if she was 'Hiding anything from them.', but judging from her expression - she probably didn't want to do it.

Indeed, Kallen is a devil on the battlefield -- What? You want her to negotiate and invite them to tea? Both sides enter battle expecting casualties, both expecting the other soldier to do their job and kill the opposition.

...That's all. Killing because you have to on the battlefield, someone doesn't have to be ax crazy or happy while doing it. Or ask stupid questions right before killing an enemy.

"The only ones who should kill are those ready to die themselves." being the quote i'm looking for when it comes to the battlefield line.

Kallen probably killed people other then soldiers, too. I won't say that isn't a possibility, but in her character she seemed like she wanted to avoid doing that as much as possible.

From what I remember, she killed soldiers and nothing but soldiers. Enemy soldiers. You don't go into battle expecting right or wrong to be the determining factor. You go into battle expecting life and death.
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Old 2010-04-07, 10:03   Link #22930
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Sanger Zonvolt View Post
Kallen's past wasn't one of much suffering or terrible atrocities, yet she could kill so casually.

I guess it was just in her nature.
Because spending your life under a brutal oppresion before finally losing the one person you love the most to said oppresion just doesn't count
Right ?

Lelouch didn't have much more to go on either but that didn't stop him from smilling like a psycho the first time he killed people
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Old 2010-04-07, 10:19   Link #22931
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
Because spending your life under a brutal oppresion before finally losing the one person you love the most to said oppresion just doesn't count
Right ?

Lelouch didn't have much more to go on either but that didn't stop him from smilling like a psycho the first time he killed people
Actually, I think Lelouch was a bit worse off. Kallen had her brother to protect her for the longest time, and a mother who - even if she didn't realize it - tried to ensure her a better life.

Lelouch was on his own. His own father threw him away, he was sent as a hostage to an enemy country, and later he had to rely on the Ashford family. He also had to protect his sister.
They could have been killed at any time when they were hostages, by assassins sent by family members or at the orders of Genbu Kururugi. And when they finally had found some happiness regardless, their father decided to invade Japan.

Lelouch found his mother lying in a puddle of her own blood, a crippled Nunnally burried underneath, and then had his father tell him that he had "no use for the weak", that he and Nunnally had never really been alive but only existed at someone else's whim.

I realize that Kallen has her own history to deal with, but I firmly believe Lelouch's past belongs in a class of its own. There's a reason he hates being powerless so much he'd rather put a gun to his own head. Kallen might have been hardened by war, but I sure as hell don't want to be Lelouch's therapist. The fact that he's a genius probably doesn't help.
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Old 2010-04-07, 11:00   Link #22932
Lolipopo
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
In that case, Suzaku can't be blamed for 90% of the mistakes he made. He just did what his superiors wanted him to do.

I'm far from an expert in law, but I'm pretty sure you can be sentenced even if you were just following orders, depending on the circumstances. Lelouch told Kallen she could back out if she wanted to, yet she didn't. Kallen was also ready to kill long before Lelouch came along, and even without his orders, she was thinking of getting rid of her friends from the student council more than once to keep her secrets safe or to dispose of Euphie's knight. It's once thing to kill on the battlefield, and another to cut the throat of someone who trusts you - especially if it's a civilian.

Now, Kallen had her reasons, but I believe every person is responsible for their actions, orders or not. It's too convenient an excuse for someone who prefers to not think for themselves.
Wait. I don't even remember what was the argument and I'm too tired to look back, but when it comes to law, if some conditions aren't fulfilled the basic rule is that the leader is responsible for his subordinate.
If we had to take the whole Kallen/Lelouch issue into custody, Lelouch would be responsible, you have everything to have him burn at stake for Kallen's mistakes.

But it's not about law so...I don't even remember what was said and what was the point. Will be back later, sorry, exams are killing my brain.

EDIT : And now we are going to compare this one and this one pain to see who had the most reason to act ? God, Kallen, run away, they'll never leave you alone. The girl didn't have reasons to fight now.
sqfhqsjldhglsgh I'm off.
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Old 2010-04-07, 11:06   Link #22933
Arbitres
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Don't worry Kallen! I'll protect you!... Marginally better then Nogitsune would, and she is liable to trade you in for a hug from Clovis.

I forgot what this was about, it's just when Zanger said Kallen killed 'casually' that ticked me off.

Anyway.. we shouldn't wage war on holy ground.... No, i'm not being metaphorical, i'm being serious.
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Old 2010-04-07, 11:29   Link #22934
bladeofdarkness
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Lelouch had a bad life
so did kallen
and given that Lelouch wasn't oppressed by the britannians like the japanese were, i find his joy at killing them rather odd

but whatever
i'm just glad someone's finally using one of my avatars
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Old 2010-04-07, 11:34   Link #22935
Sanger Zonvolt
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
Because spending your life under a brutal oppresion before finally losing the one person you love the most to said oppresion just doesn't count
Right ?
Kallen wasn't living under oppression, she was fighting for the people who were.

Quote:
Lelouch didn't have much more to go on either but that didn't stop him from smilling like a psycho the first time he killed people
I never said Lelouch didn't have trouble killing others as well.

Though the death of her brother who was pushing a resistance movement, against Lelouch's "innocent" mother being killed, and sister crippled and blind. Then thrown out on the streets with dead bodies for miles as a small child, can be quite more traumatic.
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Old 2010-04-07, 11:44   Link #22936
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Sanger Zonvolt View Post
Kallen wasn't living under oppression, she was fighting for the people who were.
she was until she was taken in by the stadfelds
which was NOT at the start of the war

Quote:
I never said Lelouch didn't have trouble killing others as well.

Though the death of her brother who was pushing a resistance movement, against Lelouch's "innocent" mother being killed, and sister crippled and blind. Then thrown out on the streets with dead bodies for miles as a small child, can be quite more traumatic.
not all that much
Lelouch spent the first part of his life in britannia
another year with suzaku's family (which he admits was the happiest time of his life)
and the rest living with the ashfords (another noble family)

he never suffered oppression by britannia
and hence his willingness to kill them all is quite perplexing

anyway, your claim that killing just comes naturally to Kallen is completely nonsensical
she's one of the few characters who actually HAS a reason to fight against her enemies (both Lelouch and suzkau fight against their own people)
she's never shown to enjoy killing, and clearly hates it when innocents get hurt (from either side of the conflict)
so its completely wrong on both counts
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Old 2010-04-07, 11:48   Link #22937
Sanger Zonvolt
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It isn't wrong, casually doesn't mean one enjoys it in the slightest or killing without a reason, only that she can kill without hesitating when she needs to.
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Old 2010-04-07, 11:50   Link #22938
Arbitres
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...I'll have you know I find this Guren avi F*cking awesome, Blade. I have shamelessly 'appropriated' it and a few others.

Don't judge me. I got 3 Kallen avi and 2 (one in use.) that you've made. Be proud of your avi workage. Once I yoink-- err.. 'Appropriate' a Kallen siggy I will be set.

...Anyways, I'm hoping this is done. I need to go look for something now... No, I won't be on Avatar Request thread. Don't be absurd.

Kallen and Lelouch deserve to be happy. With eachother! Lelouch has had a hard life... Kallen lost the person that meant most to her, and was forced to play invalid... They both deserve positive rep.

Kay you guys? You ready?! +Rep Kallen +Rep Lelouch

....----Rep Rolo
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Old 2010-04-07, 11:55   Link #22939
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Sanger Zonvolt View Post
It isn't wrong, casually doesn't mean one enjoys it in the slightest or killing without a reason, only that she can kill without hesitating when she needs to.
but then ALL of the characters fit the definition
because ALL of the combat characters kill people whenever they need to
suzaku STARTS OUT less then fine about it, but soon enough he gets over it

its not a unique kallen trait, and in her case its rather justified

@ Arbitres
glad you like it
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Old 2010-04-07, 12:09   Link #22940
Sanger Zonvolt
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Suzaku avoided killing at all cost, both in season 1 and R2, until he became the Knight of Zero. Kallen always went for the kill, and killing Shirley or any other innocents who were little suspicious of them would not of been justified.

Don't mistake it for a bashing of her though, it's one of the many aspects I enjoyed about her, her loyalty to the cause was strong.
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