AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Code Geass

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-05-18, 15:08   Link #23461
Kittenlady
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: UK
Age: 21
That's all well and good when people are getting killed left right and centre just because some crappy terrorists who don't make a difference keep 'trying'~ At least they can say they never gave up =D

Whatever, I don't care enough to get into an argument about it.
Kittenlady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 15:16   Link #23462
Nogitsune
Shameless Fangirl
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Lelouch couldn't see the knife, so she was covered in that respect. So was Shirley, and if Kallen had decided to kill her she'd probably have been quick about it. She's presumably smart enough to hide her involvement in a murder if necessary. Suzaku's the only one she'd have been caught on.
Wait. How was Kallen supposed to threaten Lelouch without showing him the knife? What was the point of the knife in the first place, then?
I was replying to the claim that she never planned to kill him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
That's all well and good when people are getting killed left right and centre just because some crappy terrorists who don't make a difference keep 'trying'~ At least they can say they never gave up =D
This. I also don't see how Suzaku's problem is that he never tries - rather, he tries things he should know will not make any difference. He's basically doing the same thing those terrorists were, except that he's actually supporting the oppressive system.
__________________
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia
Nogitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 15:41   Link #23463
morbosfist
Spinning Lotus
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Wait. How was Kallen supposed to threaten Lelouch without showing him the knife? What was the point of the knife in the first place, then?
I was replying to the claim that she never planned to kill him.
It was in case she needed to use it, not to let him know she meant business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
This. I also don't see how Suzaku's problem is that he never tries - rather, he tries things he should know will not make any difference. He's basically doing the same thing those terrorists were, except that he's actually supporting the oppressive system.
How is this better? Revolutions have happened all throughout history, some successful, others not, and most against a numerically and logistically superior foe. Giving up because your foe is stronger is hardly ever a valid excuse.
__________________
morbosfist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 15:44   Link #23464
Bigpoppasmurf1105
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
@Kittenlady. Was it ever clearly stated they were targeting civilians? We are talking about Kallen's group right? Her comments to Nagata to not use the gas seems to imply they weren't, atleast not purposely. Nothing really leads me to believe they did except the news claiming they were which should be taken with a grain of salt.

As for "probably" be less hostile is just as big of a risk as rebelling. No rebelling and the Britannians are free to do whatever they want which can just be as negative as it is positive. Yes pride was part of the fighting, but you can't tell me that's the only thing as many have stated why they really fight the system. Besides, everyone's pride drives them. My pride (as well as curiousity) is causing me to reply to you.

As for not resisting, let's explore this. Less resistance means a safer settlement. This means more will feel comfortable to move to area 11. This will lead to the need for expanding. Most likely, the ghettos will be affected and be cleared out to make room. The elevans with have less room leading to higher crime and disease. Japan is puny as it is. If not that, then refrain. remember Tamaki mentioning about turning to it if it weren't for the rebellion. I'm pretty sure he was supposed to represent the common man's views and feelings. This leads me to believe that many more would turn to the drug. And to quote my favorite school councelor, "Drugs are bad, M'kay?" Just because they are not resisting, doesn't mean they are safe.

Again, they knew they were no match, but they need to continue fighting and keeping that hope just so that "someone with an ounce of talent and magic mind control powers took over," which, unless I'm mistaken, did happen. Hell, good ole Suzaku would still be a front line human shield without the Lancelot if it weren't for them.

It's good though someone is trying to see his point, no matter how deluded he was. Afterall with all his faults, he still tried to do what he thought was right and that should be respected as much as it should be ridiculed.
Bigpoppasmurf1105 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 15:50   Link #23465
Nogitsune
Shameless Fangirl
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
It was in case she needed to use it, not to let him know she meant business.
So... she'd just have gone for a death threat without the knife and that would have produced better results? I'm a bit confused, to be honest. If we go with the theory that Kallen was not planning to kill Lelouch at all, then there was no reason for her to take out the knife if not to threaten him.

Quote:
How is this better? Revolutions have happened all throughout history, some successful, others not, and most against a numerically and logistically superior foe. Giving up because your foe is stronger is hardly ever a valid excuse.
How is what better? Suzaku? I never said he was better. Or do you mean giving up? Considering that the group was pretty much nothing without Naoto, the only thing they could achieve was the Shinjuku massacre. With Naoto... since he had come up with the plan to steal the poison gas, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he might have been able to change something. Maybe. However, Britannia was ridiculously powerful - terrorism just wasn't an efficient weapon. All they needed to do was send Cornelia or Schneizel to Area 11 and it would have been over.
__________________
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia
Nogitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 15:58   Link #23466
yvj
U Mad?
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Brooklyn NY
I don't even know what this current argument is about, and in my opinion it makes no sense.

By the definition of murderer Kallen is a murderer, hell she was on her way to murder (assassinate?) Lelouch by the end there. The thing is if you like Code Geass chances are your favorite character is a murderer. Even Shirley had two moments of attempted murder.

The show spices things up a bit by making almost everyone who got significant screen time a potential killer.

So let's narrow down the argument here, to the only thing that can even be disputed. And that's whether her actions with the BK before Lelouch came around were justifiable or not.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic81253_4.gif
yvj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 16:25   Link #23467
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 26
All I have to say is that, up until the Black Knights being put as the UN's military force, technically every kill made by Kallen was murder as she was a terrorist at the time and not a soldier, so in the eyes of the law (Britannia's, in this case), its murder.

And since history is written by the victor, in this case, Zero's, chances are history won't view Kallen as a murderer. Had Britannia won and Zero Requiem never taken place, Kallen would've been viewed as a murderer by the textbooks and such.
__________________
Rising Dragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 16:47   Link #23468
morbosfist
Spinning Lotus
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
So... she'd just have gone for a death threat without the knife and that would have produced better results? I'm a bit confused, to be honest. If we go with the theory that Kallen was not planning to kill Lelouch at all, then there was no reason for her to take out the knife if not to threaten him.
There wasn't any death threat, she just wanted to see what he knew, then she'd have killed him if necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
How is what better? Suzaku? I never said he was better. Or do you mean giving up? Considering that the group was pretty much nothing without Naoto, the only thing they could achieve was the Shinjuku massacre. With Naoto... since he had come up with the plan to steal the poison gas, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he might have been able to change something. Maybe. However, Britannia was ridiculously powerful - terrorism just wasn't an efficient weapon. All they needed to do was send Cornelia or Schneizel to Area 11 and it would have been over.
I meant Suzaku, so you covered it. How could Naoto have planned the theft of the poison gas? He was dead, and it couldn't have been recent.

Admittedly, they did not stand much if any chance as they were, but they had the resources to pull it off, just not the leadership.
__________________
morbosfist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 16:55   Link #23469
Nogitsune
Shameless Fangirl
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
There wasn't any death threat, she just wanted to see what he knew, then she'd have killed him if necessary.
I agree. But as I said, I was replying to the claim that Kallen was just going to threaten Lelouch, not kill him.

Quote:
I meant Suzaku, so you covered it.
Ah, all right.

Quote:
How could Naoto have planned the theft of the poison gas? He was dead, and it couldn't have been recent.
Hm, now that you mention it... either my memory is screwing with me, or it was probably a translation error. Because I could have sworn it was said somewhere that they used a plan designed by Naoto.

Quote:
Admittedly, they did not stand much if any chance as they were, but they had the resources to pull it off, just not the leadership.
The problem is that resources alone don't save anyone. In this case, they in fact hurt a lot of people, and personally, I consider what they did morally incorrect. Understandable, but still morally incorrect.
__________________
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia
Nogitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 16:56   Link #23470
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
It's more an issue of unlawful vs. state-sponsored terrorism.

And that capsule was property of Britannia. It would have been a safe assumption that it could have been used against the Elevens.
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 17:05   Link #23471
Nogitsune
Shameless Fangirl
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
It's more an issue of unlawful vs. state-sponsored terrorism.

And that capsule was property of Britannia. It would have been a safe assumption that it could have been used against the Elevens.
Why would they use poison gas on Eleven civilians? Shooting them is probably a lot less expensive than creating a special poison gas that can not be replaced, except if they'd only use them to test it. There's also no indication that Clovis was particularly trigger-happy; he ordered the massacre because he felt he was in danger of being disinherited, not because it looked like fun.

It would have made more sense to view the poison gas as a potential weapon against terrorists that could easily endanger civilians, but in that case, stealing it was not the most sensible option, as that would only provoke Britannia. Not to mention that Kallen was probably one of the very few members of the group who would not have used it on civilians themselves upon being driven into a corner.
__________________
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia
Nogitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 20:41   Link #23472
Knightrunner
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: United States--- California
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonzo View Post
Hehe...this image seems a appendix of my story:

Spoiler for nudities:
Wow, where did you get that and is there anymore that you can post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
The point is they might as well have been doing nothing~
Remember Kallen's cell is just one part of a huge organization rebelling. We have the JLF and The Blood Samarui, and other groups. If we combine all there efforts then it is sending the message Britanian does not own Japan yet and we can still keep fighting.
__________________
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6139/omk1.jpg
Credit to grylsygaeger
Knightrunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 21:57   Link #23473
Paladinoras
Pancakes
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Your House. No, really, look properly.
I honestly don't know who to quote, so I guess I'll just post this.

If you view things from Kallen's POV, then to her, it would be completely justified for her to kill Britannians. They killed her brother, and of course, she had seen the way "some" Britannian civilians treat the Japanese like crap in the ghettos...or any other place for that matter. Racism is alive and healthy in Area 11, and to say that the average Britannian citizen is as nice and tolerant as Shirley would be a long long stretch.

Additionally, for some strange reason, (Is it ever explained in the show btw?), she goes to an elite high-class Britannian school, and there she can she the massive difference in living standards between those Britannian students and Japanese who live in the ghettos. The prevalently ignorant and arrogant attitude of Britannian students who goes to school there is also influencing her perhaps. Hell, if it wasn't for the Student Council, I think Kallen would have no qualms about taking the whole school out.
__________________


Credit to Godlike1889 for the sig!
Paladinoras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 22:08   Link #23474
Knightrunner
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: United States--- California
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
I honestly don't know who to quote, so I guess I'll just post this.

If you view things from Kallen's POV, then to her, it would be completely justified for her to kill Britannians. They killed her brother, and of course, she had seen the way "some" Britannian civilians treat the Japanese like crap in the ghettos...or any other place for that matter. Racism is alive and healthy in Area 11, and to say that the average Britannian citizen is as nice and tolerant as Shirley would be a long long stretch.

Additionally, for some strange reason, (Is it ever explained in the show btw?), she goes to an elite high-class Britannian school, and there she can she the massive difference in living standards between those Britannian students and Japanese who live in the ghettos. The prevalently ignorant and arrogant attitude of Britannian students who goes to school there is also influencing her perhaps. Hell, if it wasn't for the Student Council, I think Kallen would have no qualms about taking the whole school out.
I believe Kallen still wouldn't take the school out even if she didn't meet the student council. Students are consider civilians and she wouldn't take anybody out without a good reason. Attacking high schoolers is a bit to far.
__________________
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6139/omk1.jpg
Credit to grylsygaeger
Knightrunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 22:13   Link #23475
Betteroffer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Hm, now that you mention it... either my memory is screwing with me, or it was probably a translation error. Because I could have sworn it was said somewhere that they used a plan designed by Naoto.
No, you're correct on this one, it's in the dub as well. Nagata curses that the Britannians found them out because Tamaki couldn't stick to Naoto's plan.
Betteroffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 23:03   Link #23476
morbosfist
Spinning Lotus
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Could have been something they were planning for a while.
__________________
morbosfist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-19, 03:41   Link #23477
Bonzo
I change anime endings.
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Italy
Age: 36
Send a message via MSN to Bonzo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightrunner View Post
Wow, where did you get that and is there anymore that you can post?
It's a example image I finded on mandarake, the doujinchi title is "claret relief".
Bonzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-19, 07:06   Link #23478
Nogitsune
Shameless Fangirl
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightrunner View Post
Remember Kallen's cell is just one part of a huge organization rebelling. We have the JLF and The Blood Samarui, and other groups. If we combine all there efforts then it is sending the message Britanian does not own Japan yet and we can still keep fighting.
During the hotel hostage situation, Lelouch killed the ones responsible precisely because they only cared about sending that sort of "message", and I'm with him there. To keep fighting when it only hurts people is not a very noble thing to do, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
If you view things from Kallen's POV, then to her, it would be completely justified for her to kill Britannians.
And for your average Britannian soldier, from his point of view, killing Elevens would also be completely justified. That doesn't make it right.

Quote:
They killed her brother, and of course, she had seen the way "some" Britannian civilians treat the Japanese like crap in the ghettos...or any other place for that matter. Racism is alive and healthy in Area 11, and to say that the average Britannian citizen is as nice and tolerant as Shirley would be a long long stretch.
So that gives her the right to kill innocents? Kallen endangered not only the very people she was trying to defend, but also innocent Britannian civilians. The majority of Ashford wasn't all that bad - they hesitated to accept Suzaku, but they invited Ougi to their festival despite knowing he was an Eleven, and said it didn't matter. More importantly, they're children, and there are children even younger than them, who really have never harmed a fly. If Kallen, as you say, would happily take out a school just because it's a Britannian one, that would make her just as racist as her enemies, though I don't believe Kallen would have done such a thing without a very, very good reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
No, you're correct on this one, it's in the dub as well. Nagata curses that the Britannians found them out because Tamaki couldn't stick to Naoto's plan.
Ah, that's good to know - thanks!
__________________
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia
Nogitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-19, 07:44   Link #23479
Kittenlady
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: UK
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigpoppasmurf1105 View Post
@Kittenlady. Was it ever clearly stated they were targeting civilians? We are talking about Kallen's group right? Her comments to Nagata to not use the gas seems to imply they weren't, atleast not purposely. Nothing really leads me to believe they did except the news claiming they were which should be taken with a grain of salt.

As for "probably" be less hostile is just as big of a risk as rebelling. No rebelling and the Britannians are free to do whatever they want which can just be as negative as it is positive. Yes pride was part of the fighting, but you can't tell me that's the only thing as many have stated why they really fight the system. Besides, everyone's pride drives them. My pride (as well as curiousity) is causing me to reply to you.

As for not resisting, let's explore this. Less resistance means a safer settlement. This means more will feel comfortable to move to area 11. This will lead to the need for expanding. Most likely, the ghettos will be affected and be cleared out to make room. The elevans with have less room leading to higher crime and disease. Japan is puny as it is. If not that, then refrain. remember Tamaki mentioning about turning to it if it weren't for the rebellion. I'm pretty sure he was supposed to represent the common man's views and feelings. This leads me to believe that many more would turn to the drug. And to quote my favorite school councelor, "Drugs are bad, M'kay?" Just because they are not resisting, doesn't mean they are safe.

Again, they knew they were no match, but they need to continue fighting and keeping that hope just so that "someone with an ounce of talent and magic mind control powers took over," which, unless I'm mistaken, did happen. Hell, good ole Suzaku would still be a front line human shield without the Lancelot if it weren't for them.

It's good though someone is trying to see his point, no matter how deluded he was. Afterall with all his faults, he still tried to do what he thought was right and that should be respected as much as it should be ridiculed.
~Not going to comment on the 'what if?' scenarios because neither of us will be right or wrong~

It all comes down to what circumstances you think it's OK to rebel against the State or not, and what circumstances and all that. I don't know. I don't particularly agree nor disagree, I just think they were crappy, inefectual terrorists who only succeeded in getting people killed.

Rebelling's all well and good in that particuar situation, I think, but they should do it properly. What were they hoping to do with that capsule? They weren't going to get anything substantial out of that by any stretch of the imagination. As far as I can tell, all they were going for was a big "FUCK YOU BRITANNIA", which is not a noble cause. Like I said before, something like that is just getting people killed needlessly.

If they wanted to be serious about it, they should, realistically (realism? In my CG?), have organised themselves properly and tried to become a more effective military force instead of attempting petty little vengences.


And lets be honest, the first ep of CG was just a massive clusterfuck of contrived coincidences. It had pretty explosions though, so I don't care much, just putting it out there. Yes, their 'messiah' did come, but he might not have, too.

Oh, SuzyQ and your fucked up little head <3 I don't think he was completely wrong about terrorism, but he should have dropped his vendetta when Zero became a proper threat to Britannia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightrunner View Post
Remember Kallen's cell is just one part of a huge organization rebelling. We have the JLF and The Blood Samarui, and other groups. If we combine all there efforts then it is sending the message Britanian does not own Japan yet and we can still keep fighting.
And they still accomplished nothing over the course of eight years~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
During the hotel hostage situation, Lelouch killed the ones responsible precisely because they only cared about sending that sort of "message", and I'm with him there. To keep fighting when it only hurts people is not a very noble thing to do, in my opinion.

And for your average Britannian soldier, from his point of view, killing Elevens would also be completely justified. That doesn't make it right.

So that gives her the right to kill innocents? Kallen endangered not only the very people she was trying to defend, but also innocent Britannian civilians. The majority of Ashford wasn't all that bad - they hesitated to accept Suzaku, but they invited Ougi to their festival despite knowing he was an Eleven, and said it didn't matter. More importantly, they're children, and there are children even younger than them, who really have never harmed a fly. If Kallen, as you say, would happily take out a school just because it's a Britannian one, that would make her just as racist as her enemies, though I don't believe Kallen would have done such a thing without a very, very good reason.
Also, this <3

Last edited by Kittenlady; 2010-05-19 at 09:19. Reason: fffffff typo
Kittenlady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-19, 09:26   Link #23480
Lolipopo
Srsly ?
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Age: 26
LOL Kallen and Co were murderer cause they didn't accomplish anything with their little group of terrorist.

So it's fine to stay put and sit on your chair while your people are being mistreated. It's way better than to find the courage to act and try.

Plenty of revolutions would have never happened, had people acted the way some people think it's better to act. If you don't move, nothing will change. People can say whatever they want about results but at least you try.

Anyway it doesn't change anything, Kallen is in no way a murderer or all of the soldiers are murderer. There is nothing defensive there, it's just stating a fact, I love how awesome double standards are. Kallen could have killed people. Then she would have been a murderer, but she never did, thus, she was a soldier, never a murderer. What ifs scenerio can lead us to think she might have take Lelouch to the pony's island, had he know something about Shinjuku, for all of we know.

Bad bad Kallen.
__________________

Lolipopo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 15:29.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.