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Old 2010-05-19, 09:43   Link #23481
Kittenlady
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But Kallen wasn't a solder, she was a terrorist. Which is irrelevent anyway because solders kill people as well. Nobody's trying to detract from her character or whatever, so don't be so defensive. She killed people, therefore she was a killer. That part isn't debatable.

And I'm not saying they should have done nothing, full stop. I'm saying that unless they could accomplish something worth those peoples lives, they should do nothing. The distinction is important.
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Old 2010-05-19, 09:59   Link #23482
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murder would have been to kill

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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
But Kallen wasn't a solder, she was a terrorist. Which is irrelevent anyway because solders kill people as well. Nobody's trying to detract from her character or whatever, so don't be so defensive. She killed people, therefore she was a killer. That part isn't debatable.

And I'm not saying they should have done nothing, full stop. I'm saying that unless they could accomplish something worth those peoples lives, they should do nothing. The distinction is important.
Wait. Do you have a proof that she killed people when she was in her terrorist group ?
She was against Tamaki's idea to use the gas, she didn't want to kill civilians; It looks like they were targetting soldiers, and britannians mitlitary institution.

Once again it's all supposition, when the serie began, the idea Okouchi gave of Kallen was of a girl who was against the idea to kill civilians. You can only make assumption she killed people when she was part of the rebels, but from what she said, it doesn't seem very likely. She certainly killed soldiers, which I don't consider a murder. A murder would have been to kill civilians, innocent people.

Her killing soldiers as a terrorist and her killing soldiers as Q1 is exctly the same. She is a killer, but definitely not a muder. Those don't have the same meaning.

And the point is, they wanted to accomplish something worth. They wanted freedom and unless you try you don't know if you can or can't do it. So it's basically the same of saying "they shouldn't have tried".
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Old 2010-05-19, 11:04   Link #23483
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They were intending for Suzaku to pilot it, so they must have wanted to give him a more powerful machine. They just got carried away.
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Old 2010-05-19, 11:11   Link #23484
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
Wait. Do you have a proof that she killed people when she was in her terrorist group ?
She was supporting a group who most likely did not care much about Britannian lives and was ready to kill first Lelouch and then Shirley to protect her secret. Even without that, she was risking innocent people's lives. The Shinjuku massacre was a result of Kallen and her group stealing the supposed poison gas.

Quote:
She was against Tamaki's idea to use the gas,
Hm, wasn't that the idea of that other guy, or am I mixing something up?

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she didn't want to kill civilians; It looks like they were targetting soldiers, and britannians mitlitary institution.
Which led to them making things worse for regular Elevens, and probably a few innocent bystanders getting hurt or killed. Considering the circumstances, they really couldn't be all that picky.

Quote:
A murder would have been to kill civilians, innocent people.

Her killing soldiers as a terrorist and her killing soldiers as Q1 is exctly the same. She is a killer, but definitely not a muder. Those don't have the same meaning.
*looks pointedly at Shirley's father*
Necessary sacrifices? Accidents? What do you call it when innocents get hurt? Kallen clearly resolved to follow the same path as Zero regardless.

Quote:
And the point is, they wanted to accomplish something worth. They wanted freedom and unless you try you don't know if you can or can't do it. So it's basically the same of saying "they shouldn't have tried".
Again, they never had more of a chance with their methods than Suzaku had a chance to change the system from within. Not even Toudou could do much, and Ougi didn't even want to be a leader. If it hadn't been Clovis in charge of Area 11 but Cornelia, they'd have been gone very, very quickly, and she could have been sent over there any time. Same goes for Schneizel, though he was probably a bit more busy. Heck, even Clovis could have made life hell for Elevens if he'd had the motivation (uh, even more hellish, that is).
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Old 2010-05-19, 11:50   Link #23485
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
She was supporting a group who most likely did not care much about Britannian lives and was ready to kill first Lelouch and then Shirley to protect her secret. Even without that, she was risking innocent people's lives. The Shinjuku massacre was a result of Kallen and her group stealing the supposed poison gas.

Hm, wasn't that the idea of that other guy, or am I mixing something up?

Which led to them making things worse for regular Elevens, and probably a few innocent bystanders getting hurt or killed. Considering the circumstances, they really couldn't be all that picky.

*looks pointedly at Shirley's father*
Necessary sacrifices? Accidents? What do you call it when innocents get hurt? Kallen clearly resolved to follow the same path as Zero regardless.

Again, they never had more of a chance with their methods than Suzaku had a chance to change the system from within. Not even Toudou could do much, and Ougi didn't even want to be a leader. If it hadn't been Clovis in charge of Area 11 but Cornelia, they'd have been gone very, very quickly, and she could have been sent over there any time. Same goes for Schneizel, though he was probably a bit more busy. Heck, even Clovis could have made life hell for Elevens if he'd had the motivation (uh, even more hellish, that is).
I remember Tamaki saying something about the use of the poison gas. Don't remember about Nagata, but Tamaki was part of those who wanted to use it. Kallen wasn't.

Your group action aren't yours. If the author made a point to show us though Kallen's words and actions that she was against the massacre of civilians it wasn't for nothing. It was because the girl doesn't attack civilians, she is against Britannia and it's army, not against civilians.

We don't care about what she could have risked. Fact is she didn't. You can't condemn someone for something he/she MIGHT have done. You condemn them for things they did. Kallen didn't kill Lelouch, neither Shirley. She isn't a murderer.

And The massacre of Shinjuku was the result of Kallen's group action ? Then I'll expand by saying the world at peace at the end was a result of their action as well. Had they never act, Lelouch would have never gotten his army, he would have never meet C.C. and nothing would have ever happened.
In the end, Good things come out of bad things. Just like in real life. French Revolution cost people dear, but it was for a greater good, no one would dare to complain about the actions which lead to that (meaning, the rebels.)

It's exactly the same in Geass.

About Shirley's father, you are coming into the Q1 territory. We know soldiers can commit burden, and that civilians can get involved by accident. It doesn't have anything to do with the current debate of Kallen as murderer since she was a soldier by then.
Shirley's father was an accidental loss, and those can't be avoided in war. It's not a murder.

Like it or not, violence can bring awesome result. Suzaku was alone, and his goal of changing Britannia from the inside was resting on luck (in the end, it was all it was). The terrorist actions (which were for me, a rebellion group) basically did more, since in the end, Lelouch joined them and they became an army.

Look at the truth of the real world. Important changes in history are mostly due to violence. Your feelings on this doesn't have anything to do with the debate. It's simply a fact. Saying that rebellion is useless cause you have little chance to change things is an insult to those who made of the world what it is today.

Anyway all of this debate is getting off topic. Kallen was a soldier, and she killed because of that. She never murderer anyone out of her KMF, no matter how much some people wish it might have been the case.

Moving on now ? It's getting annoying, coming here and seeing this discussion going in circle.
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Old 2010-05-19, 12:11   Link #23486
Paladinoras
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Lolipopo pretty much answered everything I needed to say.

Cookie to you! XD

Love your answers.

And especially at the last part, Kallen killing civilians was an absurd notion, she was always fighting from her KMF and not on foot.
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Old 2010-05-19, 12:14   Link #23487
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Tamaki might've wanted to use the gas, sure, but it was Nagata who made the suggestion to use it while they were being chased. Kallen said no to that.
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Old 2010-05-19, 12:17   Link #23488
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Who's...Nagata anyways? XD
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Old 2010-05-19, 12:18   Link #23489
Lolipopo
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Tamaki might've wanted to use the gas, sure, but it was Nagata who made the suggestion to use it while they were being chased. Kallen said no to that.
The result is the same, Kallen said no.

Paladinoras : I have the feeling I saw a different series from people around here.
A serie where Kallen was a murderer and not a soldier fighting for her cause. Weird stuuuuuff.

Anyway glad to see you again ^^

LOL. I'm sorry but no.
Civilians aren't soldiers. Civilian is the word used to differentiate soldiers and people who aren't soldiers. Soldiers aren't civilians when they are on the battlefield or in action.
They are human being but it's a war. Soldiers aren't murderer unless they are making some kind of genocide and are killing REAL civilians.
Civilians =/= Soldiers.

BTW someone made a vid with the Doujinshi Kaleidoscope. I think someone asked for it, but since those who did get the link didn't feel like sharing...
It's already good enough :')
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_lZjiVxC9Y
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Old 2010-05-19, 12:31   Link #23490
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
I remember Tamaki saying something about the use of the poison gas. Don't remember about Nagata, but Tamaki was part of those who wanted to use it. Kallen wasn't.
Hm, have to re-watch, but yes, Kallen wasn't.

Quote:
Your group action aren't yours. If the author made a point to show us though Kallen's words and actions that she was against the massacre of civilians it wasn't for nothing. It was because the girl doesn't attack civilians, she is against Britannia and it's army, not against civilians.
If I knowingly join and aid a group that kills civilians, then I can't wash my hands of their actions, especially if I am as helpful to said group as Kallen was to Ougi and the rest. Now, we don't know how many civilians died because of them, but we have reason to assume that they didn't have much sympathy for Britannians. Okouchi portayed Kallen as someone who doesn't like to kill innocents, but he also made Lelouch tell the future Black Knights that Britannian civilians are not their enemies, and that what they had been doing was childish. They were terrorists - it's highly unlikely that they went out of their way to protect Britannian civilians, considering that could have cost them their heads.

Quote:
We don't care about what she could have risked. Fact is she didn't. You can't condeman someone for something he/she MIGHT have done. You condemn them for things they did. Kallen didn't kill Lelouch, neither Shirley. She isn't a murderer.
This would be true if Kallen had decided not to kill Lelouch and Shirley because she felt bad about it. That wasn't the reason, though. She decided not to kill them because they took away her reason for doing so by clearing up a misunderstanding or, in Lelouch's case, deceiving her.

Quote:
And The massacre of Shinjuku was the result of Kallen's group action ? Then I'll expand by saying the world at peace at the end was a result of their action as well. Had they never act, Lelouch would have never gotten his army, he would have never meet C.C. and nothing would have ever happened.
It was predictable that Britannia would not take kindly to having something so valuable stolen from them, and that terrorism would cause even more discrimation. The comparison doesn't really work, except if Kallen was a seer.

Quote:
In the end, Good things come out of bad things. Just like in real life. French Revolution cost people dear, but it was for a greater good, no one would dare to complain about the actions which lead to that (meaning, the rebels.)

It's exactly the same in Geass.
So in your opinion, Suzaku and Kallen were equally justified in their actions from the start because they met Euphemia/Lelouch by chance, thus could have changed something, and ultimately helped achieving world peace?

Quote:
About Shirley's father, you are coming into the Q1 territory. We know soldiers can commit burden, and that civilians can get involved by accident. It doesn't have anything to do with the current debate of Kallen as murderer since she was a soldier by then.
Shirley's father was an accidental loss, and those can't be avoided in war. It's not a murder.
Civilians also get involved in actions performed by terrorists; that aside, you claimed that Kallen only ever killed soldiers, and that killing innocents would be murder.

Quote:
Like it or not, violence can brings awesome result. Suzaku was alone, and his goal of changing Britannia from the inside was resting on luck. The terrorist actions (which were for me, a rebellion group) basically did more, since in the end, Lelouch joined them and they became an army.
And Suzaku acquired the Lancelot and met Euphemia, and thus could have changed something had no one gotten in his way. He also helped achieving world peace, questionable methods or not.

Quote:
Look at the truth of the real world. Important changes in history are mostly due to violences. You acknowledging this fact is no concern of mine. It's simply a fact. Saying that rebellion is useless cause you have little chance to change things is an insult to those who made of the world what it is today.
I'm saying that terrorism is useless (well, they could have targeted Charles, I suppose...), not rebellion. A rebellion with a point was what Lelouch did - he risked people's lives, but he also had a chance to achieve something.

Quote:
Anyway all of this debate is getting off topic. Kallen was a soldier, and she killed because of that. She never murderer anyone out of her KMF, no matter how much some people wish it might have been the case.
Yes, I'm a terrible person who wants Kallen to be the epitome of evil, because, you know, it's not like I already have Clovis if I want to go and fangirl a character who unjustly kills a lot of people.

Quote:
Moving on now ? It's getting annoying, coming here and seeing this discussion going in circle.
Well, I suppose we can leave it at that, if you want.
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Old 2010-05-19, 12:41   Link #23491
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
......
There is no rudeness in stating a fact. Civilians aren't soldiers. Soldiers are what civilians aren't.

It's just vocabulary.

/Nogitsune : There are points I'd like to answer to, but I have an exam to attend, so maybe latter, though it's getting terribly OT.
Just, Kallen's group considered themselves as a rebellion. It's only a matter of point of view. Lelouch made of them an army, but they were rebels, not terrorists. Their actions looked like terrorism, just like the beginning of the actions of most of the rebellion. Doesn't change the fact they didn't consider themselves as terrorists. And now I'm late //
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Old 2010-05-19, 12:44   Link #23492
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
/Nogitsune : There are points I'd like to answer to, but I have an exam to attend, so maybe latter, though it's getting terribly OT.
Hm, well, it's still about Kallen, so I'd say it's all right.

Anyway, good luck with your exam!

Edit: Ah, darn, you edited. xD To make it short, I believe the main difference is that Kallen's group, especially without Naoto, never had a chance to begin with. Even Lelouch called them terrorists, at least indirectly, and I think he had a good reason for that, seeing how some of them were quite ready to use a poison gas they didn't know anything about in the presence of civilians.
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Old 2010-05-19, 19:20   Link #23493
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I think we're attempting to judge a character on her actions not her reasoning! First Kallen was a member of a resistance group, and to the Japanese they were Freedom Fighters/rebels. To the Britanian forces they were terrorists! Yeah Lelouch did refer to them as the latter, but then so did the British during our own Revolution refer to the Colonial Militia!
Secondly unless your just going about killing civillians indescriminatly and wearing a uniform, that's called murder. Killing the enemy is war, and as in most wars civillians do get killed, it's a tragic consequense of war!
So is Kallen a cold blooded killer? To my mind "No!" she's a solider doin' her job, trying to win Japan it's freedom!
Is killing wrong? "Yes!" BUT if someone threatened you or your loved ones, wouldn't you at least try to fight? Wouldn't you want to defend them? I would emphatically!! And if it meant killing, then so be it!
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Old 2010-05-19, 19:40   Link #23494
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I think we're attempting to judge a character on her actions not her reasoning!
I'd say it's a combination of both, and that's how I prefer to go about it.

Quote:
First Kallen was a member of a resistance group, and to the Japanese they were Freedom Fighters/rebels.
Where was it ever said that the Japanese supported their actions? The Black Knights became popular because they clearly did not act like your average terrorist, but once Suzaku became Euphie's Knight, his methods gained about as much support, because any form of resistance was dangerous for Japanese civilians and could easily make matters worse. It's highly likely that only the most extreme nationalists were supporting people like Naoto, while the rest just wanted to be left in peace. During the Shinjuku massacre, the Eleven civilians present were shown to blame Ougi and the rest for what was happening, and it doesn't look like them turning on people they used to support to me.

Quote:
To the Britanian forces they were terrorists! Yeah Lelouch did refer to them as the latter, but then so did the British during our own Revolution refer to the Colonial Militia!
Lelouch had no reasons to call someone a terrorist who was really a noble soldier fighting against a common enemy.

Quote:
Secondly unless your just going about killing civillians indescriminatly and wearing a uniform, that's called murder. Killing the enemy is war, and as in most wars civillians do get killed, it's a tragic consequense of war!
War is what happened between Britannia and Japan before one side was defeated. Everything that came after was a fight for freedom at best, violence as a futile form of protest at worst.

Quote:
So is Kallen a cold blooded killer? To my mind "No!" she's a solider doin' her job, trying to win Japan it's freedom!
No one said she was cold-blooded. However, her chances for winning Japan's freedom before Lelouch came along were not considerably better than Suzaku's chances for doing the same thing by going along with the system.

Quote:
Is killing wrong? "Yes!"
Depends. For example, there's self-defence, and no, I don't think that's wrong.

Quote:
BUT if someone threatened you or your loved ones, wouldn't you at least try to fight? Wouldn't you want to defend them?!
Sure. But if someone was oppressing me and my loved ones, and I had no realistic chance of winning, I'd not resort to terrorism. Even if I did, that would not make it morally correct.
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Old 2010-05-19, 20:37   Link #23495
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
She was supporting a group who most likely did not care much about Britannian lives and was ready to kill first Lelouch and then Shirley to protect her secret. Even without that, she was risking innocent people's lives. The Shinjuku massacre was a result of Kallen and her group stealing the supposed poison gas.
It was Clovis fault for the Shinjuku massacre not Kallen group.

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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
Please drop this Lolipopo. This is a matter of opinion and in which you have yours, I have mine as well. As I view Kallen as a soldier who murdered, you view Kallen as a soldier who killed. There is an impasse in opinion. Don't obstruct it with unnecessary rudeness.
I would not call or view Kallen as a Murderess or a Killer because saying that has its negative condensations. To be more appropriate I would say he or she was a soldier that killed enemies and that was it. I sure do not like to call a soilder or a police officer a murderer because they had to kill people that would harm other people. If an actual soldier was wearing a uniform drinking Starbucks and somebody called him a murderer the people around him/her would view it as a negative and, I bet the soldier would feel insulted too.
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Old 2010-05-20, 00:50   Link #23496
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For starters, a murderer is the legal definition of someone who commits unlawful and purposeful killing. Ergo, Kallen is a murderer in the eyes of Britannia and those countries who also consider her actions unlawful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill

Kallen is most certainly a killer, as evidenced by the episode The False Classmate, wherein she causes the death of a bee roughly 8 minutes and 18 seconds into the episode.
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Old 2010-05-20, 01:26   Link #23497
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That maybe the definition for murder but we must also consider that Kallen is participating in a rebellion. The unlawfulness of her actions depends on the probable outcome of that rebellion.
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Old 2010-05-20, 01:37   Link #23498
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That maybe the definition for murder but we must also consider that Kallen is participating in a rebellion. The unlawfulness of her actions depends on the probable outcome of that rebellion.
Right. In the eyes of Britannia she's probably a murderer. In the eyes of the rebels she's a soldier who is not committing unlawful homicide and resisting what they probably see as an unlawful occupation.


Things such as this are all perspective.
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Old 2010-05-20, 02:13   Link #23499
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For starters, a murderer is the legal definition of someone who commits unlawful and purposeful killing. Ergo, Kallen is a murderer in the eyes of Britannia and those countries who also consider her actions unlawful.
Actually, Britannian Constitution dictates that murder is acceptable as long as the strong defeated the weak. You have the right to take a life as long as you earn it via personal risks in committing the act. That's how the entire Britannian society justify death and destruction. That doesn't mean Kallen wouldn't be hunted down; the same constitution allow anyone to kill her for revenge if that's what they desire. There is essentially no legal protection for anyone. You need to be powerful, rich, influential or all three, to have any rights.
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Old 2010-05-20, 06:35   Link #23500
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It was Clovis fault for the Shinjuku massacre not Kallen group.
Sure it was Clovis' fault, but that doesn't mean it wasn't also the fault of Kallen and her group, if to a lesser extent. They knew they'd stolen something very valuable, and they could not possibly expect Britannia to just let it go. The Shinjuku massacre was the result of their actions, and generally, terrorists only made things worse for the majority of Elevens.
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