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Old 2010-07-31, 19:52   Link #23601
Roloko vi Britannia
The Dark Empress
 
 
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Meh I still like Kallen/Lelouch, but I prefer Kallen/Gino more now since I find them cute even though they are the exact opposite of each other. I hate it when people stick their opinions down my throat too especially when it comes to my most hated parings and characters when they now how much I already despise them to begin with.
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Old 2010-07-31, 20:25   Link #23602
azul120
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Hmmm, were you trying to say that the LelouchxKallen shippers are a result of Unresolved Sexual Tension?

And of course, Lelouch Breaking Kallen's Heart To Save Her wouldn't have happened if Ohgi and Villetta hadn't Swiss Messengered things.

As for Lord Soth's suggenstion for a fanservice continuation or alternate ending or whathaveyou, I'd even accept an End of Evangelion ending as an alternative. I mean, it still ended as something of a Crapsack World, so why not have Lelouch go Woobie Destroyer of Worlds for real and end it all?
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Old 2010-07-31, 22:04   Link #23603
azul120
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
wut? o_o
What I meant was that because their relationship was never fully consummated, the Kalulu shippers never got their fill.

Quote:
*facedesk* I'll ignore that.
What I meant was that even if Sunrise/Taniguchi/etc. were to go for that at the most, akin to how Hideaki Anno did End of Evangelion as sort of a middle finger to the fans who complained about the original series ending, it would still be more acceptable than Zero Requiem. Not saying much, but still.
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Old 2010-08-01, 12:37   Link #23604
Paladinoras
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I see even after a year of populating this thread, it's contents haven't really changed much. Hell, if any change occurred at all.
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Old 2010-08-01, 13:58   Link #23605
Lord_Soth
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
you missed the point then
its not a "Oh, ok see ya"
Lelouch knew at that point that nothing else he could say to her would make her leave his side
he did the only thing that has the power to break away someone's loyalty
betrayal

by making kallen think that he had betrayed her all along, he was able to push her away and have her spared
suzaku managed to do the same thing to her in ep 2 by pointing out that Lelouch just used her and japan for his own goals

nothing shutters loyalty like betrayal


I just used 'ok see ya' to drive a point.
Loyalty shuttered? It was already shuttered at the end of Stage 25, when she got in such an emotional state after witnessing Zero being Lelouch and listening to Suzakus words about using them all along, and using Euphimia to kill the Japanese and blame her.
She spends an entire year contemplating on that information.
Then she confronts him about it.
She gets 'semi convinced' by the answer but she still has doubts deep inside.
So she spends time searching and finding out more things about him and getting closer.
Then falls for the same trick again.

Between Stage 25 and Turn 19, there's a point where the foreshadowing is crystal clear that this couple has zero chance under these circumstances.. and that there will probably be no pairing at all.At least thats what it did for me, in Turn 7.

Kallen:Snap out of it, you are Zero now.
Kallen:You carry the responsibility of showing us a dream.
Kallen:Then... keep your lie up until the very end!
Kallen:This time perform Zero's act... flawlessly!

In a way, she's practically tell him to put all his feelings aside and maintain his composure because he's supposed to represent something bigger than that, and he needs to deliver, he's past the point where personal feelings about individuals should be holding him down.

In the same turn, there are CCs words to a Kallen that is holding Zeros mask in her hands, probably the first and only time in the series that CC addressed Kallen seriously instead of snatty comebacks or teasing.

-That mask is heavy.Not only the Japanese, but the one who wears it must bear the entire world on his shoulders.

Kallen struggles because her inner self is in conflict.One side is the rebelious and fighting spirit that is guided from a dream of a better world that she inherited from her brother, her own resolve to make this a kinder and peacefull world so people don't have to dwel on the past (much like her mother did when she used refrain), and the acceptance that in order to achieve that she needs to put everything else aside and use all the means necessary to do it - on the other side are her own personal feelings about a man that has decided to take the world upon his shoulders residing in loneliness and solitude, a man willing to commit evil to fight evil, a man who will stop at nothing even if that means hurting the people closer to him to achieve the goal set, and she's drawn closer to him even if it seems intimidating, she's intrigued and falls for him.


What happened to that inner struggle? Which side won? She had more than enough time to confront him.One month passed since Lelouch was resqued by Rolo until he crowned himself Emperor of Britannia, and even more time passed while he was tearing apart Britannias inner political structure , suppresing rebelions until he actually proposed to become member of the UFN, and the final confrontation in Ashford Academy.

To me personally, it seems that in the end the character got the short end of the stick because it was decided aeons ago that she had to fight Suzaku at the very end, since her KMF was the only one capable of defeating him (they have to sell KMF models after all) and in order to 'stick' to that, they watered things down, and made it shallow in the process.That's why she wasn't supposed to have a part in ZR.
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Old 2010-08-01, 18:08   Link #23606
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Lord_Soth View Post
What happened to that inner struggle? Which side won? She had more than enough time to confront him.One month passed since Lelouch was resqued by Rolo until he crowned himself Emperor of Britannia, and even more time passed while he was tearing apart Britannias inner political structure , suppresing rebelions until he actually proposed to become member of the UFN, and the final confrontation in Ashford Academy.

To me personally, it seems that in the end the character got the short end of the stick because it was decided aeons ago that she had to fight Suzaku at the very end, since her KMF was the only one capable of defeating him (they have to sell KMF models after all) and in order to 'stick' to that, they watered things down, and made it shallow in the process.That's why she wasn't supposed to have a part in ZR.
while i agree with the last paragraph about Z-R being out of place.
and i DO agree with her getting the short end of the stick.
THAT part i just don't get

what do you mean she had time to confront him ?
she didn't know where he was until he became emperor
and once he WAS emperor, she get to him to ask him those questions until she finally met him in ashford (where she was only able to meet him under the agreement that she'd be killed if she acted like she's under geass)
THAT was the point where she had a chance to confront him, and thats where he simply blew her off
he did so to protect her obviously, but from Kallen's POV, he was basically telling her that there is nothing there for her.
whatever his new life was about, she no longer had a part in it.

at which point, after already making a fool of herself by kissing him, she did the only thing she could do.
she said goodbye, and she left.
and when he later turned out to have betrayed EVERYTHING they ever fought for (he kidnapped the UFN leaders, conquered japan, etc), she ended up fighting against him.
its not HARD to figure out from a characterization POV.
its absurd on the STORY level (as is the rest of Z-R), but it makes sense character-wise.

what else was she suppose to do, beg him to love her ?
refuse to fight him and just LET him conquer the entire world, simply because she loves him ?

you ask which side won ?
the side that has ALWAYS been at the core of Kallens character
the side that fights against oppression no matter the cost
had Kallen done anything less then try her best to stop him, then she wouldn't be Kallen
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Old 2010-08-01, 19:54   Link #23607
azul120
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Originally Posted by Lord_Soth View Post
Between Stage 25 and Turn 19, there's a point where the foreshadowing is crystal clear that this couple has zero chance under these circumstances.. and that there will probably be no pairing at all.At least thats what it did for me, in Turn 7.
Actually, that's not it. Infact, you may remember Kallen gaining an even deeper understanding from her time spent with Nunnally in the middle of R2, and she would later console him in R2 19. It only shattered right after that when the Black Knights turned on Lelouch, and he was forced into lying to save her face in R2 19. And beyond that point, after that and everything else that had happened, he was pushed beyond the Despair Event Horizon and wished to put himself out of his misery.
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Old 2010-08-01, 20:14   Link #23608
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Despair Event Horizon
No oilspill in Kallen's thread please. Thanks =))
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Old 2010-08-01, 20:25   Link #23609
Lord_Soth
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
while i agree with the last paragraph about Z-R being out of place.
and i DO agree with her getting the short end of the stick.
THAT part i just don't get

what do you mean she had time to confront him ?
she didn't know where he was until he became emperor
and once he WAS emperor, she get to him to ask him those questions until she finally met him in ashford (where she was only able to meet him under the agreement that she'd be killed if she acted like she's under geass)
THAT was the point where she had a chance to confront him, and thats where he simply blew her off
he did so to protect her obviously, but from Kallen's POV, he was basically telling her that there is nothing there for her.
whatever his new life was about, she no longer had a part in it.

at which point, after already making a fool of herself by kissing him, she did the only thing she could do.
she said goodbye, and she left.
and when he later turned out to have betrayed EVERYTHING they ever fought for (he kidnapped the UFN leaders, conquered japan, etc), she ended up fighting against him.
its not HARD to figure out from a characterization POV.
its absurd on the STORY level (as is the rest of Z-R), but it makes sense character-wise.

what else was she suppose to do, beg him to love her ?
refuse to fight him and just LET him conquer the entire world, simply because she loves him ?

you ask which side won ?
the side that has ALWAYS been at the core of Kallens character
the side that fights against oppression no matter the cost
had Kallen done anything less then try her best to stop him, then she wouldn't be Kallen

Just tying loose ends, it happens every time you re-watch a series, you notice stuff you didn't notice before, and have questions about other things.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on something.Since I don't claim to have 'everything' released about Code Geass, and since I can't speak/read Japanese, the only way is to browse and talk to find out more staff.So if I'm missing something important here then fill me in, since I haven't seen anything in the extended series about it.

What basically got me into thinking is the intro of Turn 22.

There is a time gap after Lelouch sits on the throne as 99th Emperor of Britannia, until the time he meets Kallen in the Academy grounds, and Kallen asks him all these questions.

During that time, Lelouch spends a considerable amount of energy and he's focused on demoishing the entire Britannia royalty system,releasing numbers, making people equal before their emperor regardless of bloodlines, supressing revolts and rebelions from any Royal family that has enough resources and military power to object his rules.During that time, even the 'normal' people of Britannia view him as a fighter of 'Justice' and even the BKs in a moment of 'epiphany' in Ikaruga witness all that and in that scene among pretty much everyone important in the BK leadership Kallen is apparently absent.

In this time span, there appears to be some 'truce' when it comes to the UFN and the Black Knights as their official military force, and Britannia as an empire.Their fighting has stopped for a while, since Lelouch is busy reconstructing the empire from within, and Kallen has time to consider and think things more carefully.She knows Lelouch 'must' have something planned, she knows there 'has' to be a reason behind all this 'scheming' and some kind of 'hidden' agenta.

If she has 'accepted' the facts that Lelouch has 'changed' and he's doing all this in Britannia out of the 'good will' of his heart, then the part of her that feels affectionate towards him should drive her there earlier to find out more about how he feels towards her,since apprently things now have settled down and it's almost looking as if there will be eventually good grounds for world peace.
If she hasn't 'accepted' that this is all done due to Lelouchs 'change' and that he indeed has a 'plan' for all this afterwards, then shouldn't she feel 'threatened' that this might actually threaten the entire moral of the 'fight for a kinder and better world' and actually try to extract more information out of him about it? (Like flying the Guren there and grasping him with the claw and shake him up and down till he spills his guts out and reveals it)




Quote:
Actually, that's not it. Infact, you may remember Kallen gaining an even deeper understanding from her time spent with Nunnally in the middle of R2, and she would later console him in R2 19. It only shattered right after that when the Black Knights turned on Lelouch, and he was forced into lying to save her face in R2 19. And beyond that point, after that and everything else that had happened, he was pushed beyond the Despair Event Horizon and wished to put himself out of his misery.
I didn't say that was the 'end' on Kallens part.The fact that she persued more to gain a better understanding of him was her own will (and probably what made this pair more 'dramatic in a sense) and her own choosing in it.It was a very important part, amongst the other ones done in there, that basically brought Lelouch back to the ground and told him that in order for Zero to be successful and come through with his plans, he needs to alienate himself from 'personal' feelings, no matter how hard that seems, so he isn't held back in important decisions.Just as much impact CCs words had on him on how he needs to keep distance from the people he loves, Kallens words basically told him he should keep 'lying-cheating-using- the people he CAN'T distance himself from (the BKs,UFN,Tanzi, what ever) due to them playing interval plans into the entire 'dream' they have.She basically gave him a free pass into freely 'using' her in ANY possible way, if that meant it would further the plans of Zero and her dream.What Lelouch was asking at that time had nothing to do with 'freeing Japan and making the world a kinder and better place'.
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Last edited by Lord_Soth; 2010-08-01 at 20:37.
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Old 2010-08-02, 12:30   Link #23610
Lolipopo
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Lol I just read the two latest pages (I kinda like Lord Soth's point of view BTW. More than kinda.) and it's always the same toward the big bad Kalulu fans, even when they are doing anything. "They ruined Kalulu for me, baaaw"/ Kallen did something that everyone did but for SHE it sucks.

And since I don't plan to be part again of this lack of original topic...
Kallen/Lelouch is always the best pairing though, so, it was just to say.
Nothing new Kallen related lately btw ? Or CG related for that matters, been a while.
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Old 2010-08-02, 12:45   Link #23611
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The only news will be Kallen beat very hard Suzaku in the OAV second chapter, I know, no real news, but you asked....^_^
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Old 2010-08-02, 12:52   Link #23612
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
Lol I just read the two latest pages (I kinda like Lord Soth's point of view BTW. More than kinda.) and it's always the same toward the big bad Kalulu fans, even when they are doing anything. "They ruined Kalulu for me, baaaw"/ Kallen did something that everyone did but for SHE it sucks.
My, you're awfully defensive. No one's said a bad word against Kallen as far as I can see. I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I don't judge characters by who I see them paired with, I decide what I think of them based on their own merits. I rather liked Kallen, she was fun.

Quote:
And since I don't plan to be part again of this lack of original topic...
Kallen/Lelouch is always the best pairing though, so, it was just to say.
Nothing new Kallen related lately btw ? Or CG related for that matters, been a while.
And that is subjective, but good for you. It's nice you've found a pairing you enjoy so much.
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Old 2010-08-02, 13:13   Link #23613
Lolipopo
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OAV second chapter....Original animation video second chapter...ooooook I think I get it.

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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
My, you're awfully defensive. No one's said a bad word against Kallen as far as I can see. I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I don't judge characters by who I see them paired with, I decide what I think of them based on their own merits. I rather liked Kallen, she was fun.

And that is subjective, but good for you. It's nice you've found a pairing you enjoy so much.
Lol Am I defensive ? Really ? Well, if you want.

It's not only about the pairing and I think you know that. But It's not like if I really cared about your or anyone else opeinions about this or that. it's just terribly odd to see always the same stuff months and months later, from the same people. But to each it's way to entertain so, whatever.
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Old 2010-08-02, 13:22   Link #23614
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Lol Am I defensive ? Really ? Well, if you want.

It's not only about the pairing and I think you know that. But It's not like if I really cared about your or anyone else opeinions about this or that. it's just terribly odd to see always the same stuff months and months later, from the same people. But to each it's way to entertain so, whatever.
Yes, saying "Kallen did something that everyone did but for SHE it sucks" when no one's said anything like that is being overly defensive.

No, I don't know. A few people said they weren't fond of Kallen x Lelouch, then said who they preferred her paired with. If any characters being snubbed at all, it's Lelouch.

And if you didn't care, you wouldn't have said anything.
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Old 2010-08-02, 13:30   Link #23615
Lolipopo
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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
Yes, saying "Kallen did something that everyone did but for SHE it sucks" when no one's said anything like that is being overly defensive.

No, I don't know. A few people said they weren't fond of Kallen x Lelouch, then said who they preferred her paired with. If any characters being snubbed at all, it's Lelouch.

And if you didn't care, you wouldn't have said anything.
I don't care. If I cared, like I did in the past, I'd have posted an aversize and useless post to explain each words of my previous post. I didn't. Now, yeah, I care if you want. I'm defensive if you want as well.

Now, it's a barren topic since I'm not motivated enough to...reply for real.
The whole goal of my post was to underline the fact the topics didn't change in months and to ask if there was something new. Nothing to freak about, really, you can rest in peace.
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Old 2010-08-02, 13:35   Link #23616
Kittenlady
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If you didn't care, you wouldn't have said anything at all.

And Jesus, if you think that's a freak out, then god help you when you come across an actual argument.
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Old 2010-08-02, 13:58   Link #23617
Lolipopo
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If you didn't care, you wouldn't have said anything at all.

And Jesus, if you think that's a freak out, then god help you when you come across an actual argument.
*giggles* Sure, I never met an "actual argument" especially here, on Asuki.

Come on, it doesn't make sense. Making a statement means one cares about a situation ? Well, to each his way to define the word "care" but it's getting terribly off topic over a simple statement, and really, I think we both have better things to do. Curiosity takes the best of me, really.
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Old 2010-08-02, 16:08   Link #23618
Lord_Soth
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Basically the reason I am asking all this is this:::

I'm getting 'blackmailed' by my niece who happens to be my partner-in-crime in Anime-Watching weekends, and also my primary partner-in-crime when it comes to nightlife and partying.

So the cutthroat bitc.. I mean that lovely young lady wants me to write a fanfic about Kallen, since we recently watched the entire Code Geass saga (for the 5th time since the show ended).First I didn't actually plan to give in to such kind of vile extorcion, but given the fact that she threatens to call me 'dad' (I'm 32 she's 20) every time we're in a bar and I happen to be in a conversation with another female of intrest, or the fact that she plans to crash in my appartment every time there's a slight possibility of me having someone else there (since I was dum enough to give her a key) then I don't see a lot of ways out of here.

So, after she set her 'rules' (Has to be about Kallen, has to be after ZR timespan, has to be in english, and she needs to waste a box of cleenex while reading it) I felt that perhaps someone here could possibly direct me to a better understanding as to how some things transpired and how they went down.
Trying to understand Kallens POV simply by following her steps and her character development through out Season 1 and Season 2 can lead to some ways of how she behaves/acts given different circumstances.Yet there are questions that remain unanswered even when I remove everything else from the scene and try to think 'What would Kallen do in this situation'.So on these occasions I had to rely on the story/plot to find more information about it.Yet the story/plot/sub-plots got so utterly messed up and revised during Season 2 (and even in Season 1 in some cases) that this doesn't help me at all at some points.

I'm not aware if the original writer of the series planned to release the manuscript, or either licencing someone to write a novel-book about the whole deal.I've watch pretty much all the Picture Dramas, listened to all the Sound Episodes , yet even if they answered 'some' of the questions, they created new ones in the process.Her last phrase (I think it goes like that, from the Miraculous Birthday part) of "You idiot.Now I can't forget you, even when I want to" doesn't make things more clear, at least for me, on what exactly she means.Especially that 'now' part.Maybe its the translation, or maybe you guys have already discussed this in lenght, yet I can't find more info about it after searching around in threads.

What it boils down to basically, is this: From my understanding so far, Kallen never really got an answer to the question that 'bothered'/'tormented' her during the entire R2 era.Yes she understood why Lelouch did what he did, yes she thanked him for giving her a second chance in life, yes she fell for him (character songs and poem helped clarrify these things more) - But eventually, after witnessing her character struggling to find out what she means to him / needing an answer to move on, that part hasn't been touched at all, has it?

I'm not exactly asking for canon information, I'm simply trying to find out if people believe that Kallen can actually figure out, after ZR, that Lelouch held her in a 'higher' esteem and regard than let's say Rivalz or Milley.What he did, he did it for pretty much everybody, that part she understands, yet what about what she 'really meant for him', that question will probably never be answered in order to allow the ambiguidy of the entire series, correct?
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Old 2010-08-02, 21:37   Link #23619
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
*giggles* Sure, I never met an "actual argument" especially here, on Asuki.

Come on, it doesn't make sense. Making a statement means one cares about a situation ? Well, to each his way to define the word "care" but it's getting terribly off topic over a simple statement, and really, I think we both have better things to do. Curiosity takes the best of me, really.
Just the impression you give me, dear.

Generally? Yes, that does mean you cared enough to write out a reply. Now, perhaps it's just me, I know it's a pet peeve of mine, but I can't help but see someone continuously replying with half-arsed arguments and 'justifying' it with "I don't care enough" as a total cop-out.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Soth View Post
What it boils down to basically, is this: From my understanding so far, Kallen never really got an answer to the question that 'bothered'/'tormented' her during the entire R2 era.Yes she understood why Lelouch did what he did, yes she thanked him for giving her a second chance in life, yes she fell for him (character songs and poem helped clarrify these things more) - But eventually, after witnessing her character struggling to find out what she means to him / needing an answer to move on, that part hasn't been touched at all, has it?

I'm not exactly asking for canon information, I'm simply trying to find out if people believe that Kallen can actually figure out, after ZR, that Lelouch held her in a 'higher' esteem and regard than let's say Rivalz or Milley.What he did, he did it for pretty much everybody, that part she understands, yet what about what she 'really meant for him', that question will probably never be answered in order to allow the ambiguidy of the entire series, correct?
As long as it's well-written, just about anything can be believable <3

And you're right, all of that's completely subjective. Personally, I don't really think Kallen knew Lelouch that well, as in he never really opened up to her, but she got a good grasp and perception of his character from what she did see of him.

However, if you're pushing for Kallen x Lelouch pairing, then it's not at all inconceivable for them to be a little closer.
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Old 2010-08-02, 22:49   Link #23620
Lord_Soth
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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
However, if you're pushing for Kallen x Lelouch pairing, then it's not at all inconceivable for them to be a little closer.

I'm not pushing so to speak, my hands are actually 'tied' in a sence that when she reads it she wants to give her a sad and dramatic aroma in a way.I could write about something like her witnessing her brothers death or something, but it has to be post-ZR, so there's not much I can work with.

Personally I'm a Kallen fan above all.If Kallens character was developed in a way to get closer to XXX or YYY or ZZZ, then it wouldn't bother me, since thats what Kallen wants deep down.So, if we were to ask Kallen per se, right after the moment that Lelouch closes his eyes for the final time, what would she change in ZR if she could, then her most probable answer would be 'not to lose the one I fell in love with'. So in essence, I'm not actually pushing Kallen x Lelouch because thats what -I- want, I'm doing it because that's what -she- would want, if you get my drift.
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