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Old 2013-04-02, 00:43   Link #23861
Syaokura
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Even Kallen was wondering wtf is up with Ougi and Villetta hooking up (like the rest of the fans, I imagine), but hey, as long as they're happy...

Still, I'm happy to see new material translated, especially if it's Kallen-related. And aww, she still misses Lelouch.
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Old 2013-04-02, 04:34   Link #23862
azul120
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Originally Posted by Syaokura View Post
Even Kallen was wondering wtf is up with Ougi and Villetta hooking up (like the rest of the fans, I imagine), but hey, as long as they're happy...

Still, I'm happy to see new material translated, especially if it's Kallen-related. And aww, she still misses Lelouch.
The pairing itself wouldn't be a problem if Ohgi knew well enough of all the circumstances and didn't side with her so blindly over Lelouch. From a fanfic titled "The World That I Knew", this is the type of exchange that by all rights should have happened:

Quote:
"I told you all that we've should have never believe that blond hair Brit prince. Now, look where our asses are." yelled Tamaki.

"But Schneizel said that Zero had Geass and that he was manipulating us to follow him." said Chiba. "And besides, Zero himself said so."

"But he never used it on us." said Kallen.

"What are you talking about Kallen?" asked Ohgi with Villetta standing next to him.

Kallen clutched her knuckles before answering. "I knew about Zero's... Lelouch's geass beforehand."

The group gasped, knowing that one of their own knew about Zero's powers before any of them else did.

"Did you also know about his identity as well?" asked Ohgi.

Kallen remained quiet.

"Kallen?"

"Yes."

"For how long?"

"After the First Black Rebellion failed and when he was captured."

"Kallen, why would keep something like that from us?" asked Ohgi.

"Oh, you're the one to asked, Ohgi, since you believe not only two members of the royal family but also someone who works for them. I saw you and Villetta together at the school festival last year and I saw her again at the school. She was there, monitoring Lelouch to see if he would become Zero and then locate where the rest of the Black Knights were and sell us out to the Britannians so that she could keep her title as Baroness." yelled Kallen. "After all wasn't she the one who shot you?"

"Hey, yeah, why are you even here? You probably did this to us so you could probably gain a higher title." Tamaki yelled, pointing at Villetta.

"Chigusa had nothing to do with it. She was trying to warn us of the danger Zero possessed and if it wasn't for her, Zero would probably have thrown us away as pawns. Isn't that right, Chigusa?" Ohgi said as he defended the woman he loved.

Villetta remained quiet as she did not answer, for some parts were true.

"Chigusa?"

"Well...I had to. Zero was going to expose my relationship with Ohgi and my possible connection to the Black Knights if I continued on following him to see if his memories came back as Zero."

"His memories?"

"Yes, the Emperor, his father, erased his memories making him forget that he was ever a prince of Britannia or that he was Zero or that he had a younger sister which is why the Emperor had Rolo pretend to be his younger brother."

Ohgi couldn't believe what he was hearing. The woman that he saved and loved was afraid of being exposed about their relationship and was willing to kept her title as a baroness instead of loving him.

"Get out."

Villetta was shocked. 'Did Ohgi just told me to...'

"I SAID GET OUT! I DON'T EVER WANT TO SEE YOU AGAIN!" Ohgi yelled from top of his lungs. "It's your fault that we ended up like this. I thought you were doing this to protect me because you loved me but now I see that you only cared about your useless title of being a Britannian baroness. I don't ever want to see you again. Now get out."
Instead she gets a happy ending, while Lelouch winds up dead. What a charlatan.
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Old 2013-04-02, 07:11   Link #23863
somersault
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Instead she gets a happy ending, while Lelouch winds up dead. What a charlatan.
That was the biggest travesty on the show; she, who backstabbed everyone along with her dipshit pet, got a complete happy ending, whereas Kallen, (I just mention her, since it's her thread but you could also include Suzaku, Nunally, Rivalz, Milly aka the not crappy characters or annoying as hell) got the epitome of the bittersweet one.

Oh well.
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Old 2013-04-02, 13:59   Link #23864
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Could have been more succinct; their happiness came at the expense of Lelouch and the victims of the Zero Requiem.
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Old 2013-04-02, 18:24   Link #23865
Bonzo
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Villetta's dream was the career and become very important and rich.
In fact to protect her title of baroness was the first place and well...try to kill Ougi in R2 was the only option to remove a dangerous witness, in a normal situation, love passion or not, without Sayoko presence, Ougi was dead.

I think the absurd idea of Ougi new japan first minister was the only way the writer had to justify their union, because Villetta become first lady of japan.

If you read the manga version, Ougi never had a contact with Villetta, at last they are just two co-worker at school.
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Old 2013-04-03, 04:12   Link #23866
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Ohgi is like a Shiro Armada expy gone horribly wrong.
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Old 2013-07-20, 14:20   Link #23867
pinguyFrank
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have some images of a set of poker cards
Spoiler for images:
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Old 2013-08-02, 04:28   Link #23868
Fireminer
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have some images of a set of poker cards
Spoiler for images:
Nice! But I think it should be Queen!
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Old 2013-08-21, 02:47   Link #23869
ingo505
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So, I've been thinking about it for some time and I still can't get over how great the ending was in my opinnion. I really liked the bittersweetness. And, I feel like had there been some kind of last confrotation or convo it would have been cliched or came off lame. I really have come to appriciate the "titanic" ending for her and all the subtle hints that prove that they really loved each other. It really feels like two lovers were seperated by lack of time and circumstances.
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Old 2013-08-21, 07:09   Link #23870
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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So, I've been thinking about it for some time and I still can't get over how great the ending was in my opinnion. I really liked the bittersweetness. And, I feel like had there been some kind of last confrotation or convo it would have been cliched or came off lame. I really have come to appriciate the "titanic" ending for her and all the subtle hints that prove that they really loved each other. It really feels like two lovers were seperated by lack of time and circumstances.
Well, the director was proud of it too. He said on record that he was forced to make many changes in Season 2 by higher ups, but in the end he managed to twist the story to end up exactly how he wanted to end it.

It might have required breaking some laws of physics, but the story ended the way it was always meant to end. Not many TV series can claim that.
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Old 2013-08-21, 07:34   Link #23871
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Kallen may be a beauty as a character but she made critical mistakes in r1.
1. You seemingly brushed off the fact that the voice not only knew who u were where you lived and how to contact the council.
2. You didn't find it odd that lelouch simply handed you the phone with the voice.
3. You had 3 chances to see zero's face before it was revealed by suzaku but u never took any even after u had a suspect.
4. Zero killed clovis yet why is it that he didn't kill euphy on kamine island in secret and even moreso why was euphy walking so closely with the man who killed her brother without a shred of worry.
5. In the episode black knights you didn't find it odd that zero's entire plan would've fallen apart had he not known that euphy was in the hotel and moreso that cornelia would stop just to protect her.

These 5 things should've been red flags to kallen but never really panned out. Her shock wasn't nearly as impressive.
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Old 2013-08-21, 13:39   Link #23872
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What's that line Aizen used to explain how/why he stabbed Hinamori. Something like "adulation is the farthest emotion from reason". Karren was so head over heels for Zero-sama that she refused to recognize any faults in him until it was made so painfully obvious that she couldn't ignore it anymore.

As for why she didn't question the closeness between Zero and Euphy. She had other things on her mind atm. Besides, she could have rationalized it as Zero having converted her into a spy/mole within the royal family. I mean Dietard was Britanian after all.

Last edited by S.Freedom; 2013-08-21 at 15:15.
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Old 2013-08-21, 22:05   Link #23873
azul120
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Well, the director was proud of it too. He said on record that he was forced to make many changes in Season 2 by higher ups, but in the end he managed to twist the story to end up exactly how he wanted to end it.

It might have required breaking some laws of physics, but the story ended the way it was always meant to end. Not many TV series can claim that.
Unfortunately those changes made it all complete bunk. And those who weren't cheated out of happiness were among the least deserving. Karma in the Geass-verse is mostly inverted.
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Old 2013-08-22, 09:41   Link #23874
Xander
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That's too much of a subjective generalization. Karma is an abstract concept, not a force of nature, and it can be inverted or avoided just as often in the real world.

Though that's rather pointless talk in a Kallen thread, considering she did deserve a good ending.

Which I'm glad that some people can appreciate without being all doom and gloom.
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Old 2013-08-22, 10:03   Link #23875
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Unfortunately those changes made it all complete bunk. And those who weren't cheated out of happiness were among the least deserving. Karma in the Geass-verse is mostly inverted.
The show was never about rewarding the good and punishing the bad. By the end of the show no one has clean hands. And in fact Kallen herself was no saint. What did you think she was doing with what she thought was poison gas?

If everyone got what they deserved, there would be a LOT more dead people. Indeed, the war would have kept going. That's the point; that peace is not compatible with revenge.

Kallen was given a new life. A new life that arguably, she didn't earn. No one earned it, because no one wanted peace. Lulu was the one who decided it was time to drop the issue of who needing to punish who.
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Old 2013-08-22, 14:05   Link #23876
azul120
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The show was never about rewarding the good and punishing the bad. By the end of the show no one has clean hands. And in fact Kallen herself was no saint. What did you think she was doing with what she thought was poison gas?

If everyone got what they deserved, there would be a LOT more dead people. Indeed, the war would have kept going. That's the point; that peace is not compatible with revenge.

Kallen was given a new life. A new life that arguably, she didn't earn. No one earned it, because no one wanted peace. Lulu was the one who decided it was time to drop the issue of who needing to punish who.
Another problem was that it didn't really even work out to that; it was more about Lelouch having a personal death wish, and in the process he undoubtedly took more people with him than there were casualties during his time as Zero. There were other paths towards peace, ones that would have likely amounted to less bloodshed all around.

As for Kallen and the gas canister, she didn't want to use it (she specifically calls it a bloodbath in episode 1). She wanted to get it out of Britannian hands so the latter would have one less weapon.

And to say no one's hands were clean entails a bit of false equivalency; some were dirtier than others, while others were cleaner by the converse. The problem in the end was that some of the former had happier endings, and for a few annoying contrivances at that. Relating a little more directly to Kallen, she should have never let the whole thing with Ohgi and Villetta slide. She should have brought up her complicitness with the OSI.
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Old 2013-08-22, 17:24   Link #23877
Xander
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Relating a little more directly to Kallen, she should have never let the whole thing with Ohgi and Villetta slide. She should have brought up her complicitness with the OSI.
You seem to be assuming:

a) That she knows as much about this as the viewers.

Which is very questionable. Kallen barely knew anything about Villetta to begin with. She didn't really interact with the OSI (including Rolo, for that matter). The comments Kallen made after the first school festival in R2 seem to suggest she considers Villetta a past acquaintance of Ohgi who might have been a collaborator for him during S1. It doesn't seem she knows about her Britannian military record. There's no indication about what information, if any, she could actually bring up about her OSI connections.

b) That she cares as much about this as (some of) the viewers or would react the same way.

Kallen spent a lot of the season in jail. After getting out, her main concern was Lelouch himself, her relationship to him and what he did or didn't do to the world. It doesn't help that she didn't witness the betrayal herself, so one can't really tell what, if anything, Ohgi might have told Kallen beyond what little we saw both of them talk about. It's entirely possible that she's still mostly in the dark about Villetta's true role in this.

What's more, there's also the fact that Ohgi was a close friend of her brother. It's not like Kallen can ignore that. She did question him about how they turned against Zero, but her reaction was a desire to directly talk to Lelouch, hoping that he would explain himself, rather than trying to debate the subject to death.

Given her reaction post-Zero Requiem, it's also fair to say that Kallen appreciates what Lelouch did for her and for the world, rather than holding any petty grudge for whatever happened in the past. I don't really think she is in the mood to throw rocks at anyone, literally or figuratively speaking.
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Old 2013-08-22, 17:55   Link #23878
azul120
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You seem to be assuming:

a) That she knows as much about this as the viewers.

Which is very questionable. Kallen barely knew anything about Villetta to begin with. She didn't really interact with the OSI (including Rolo, for that matter). The comments Kallen made after the first school festival in R2 seem to suggest she considers Villetta a past acquaintance of Ohgi who might have been a collaborator for him during S1. It doesn't seem she knows about her Britannian military record. There's no indication about what information, if any, she could actually bring up about her OSI connections.

b) That she cares as much about this as (some of) the viewers or would react the same way.

Kallen spent a lot of the season in jail. After getting out, her main concern was Lelouch himself, her relationship to him and what he did or didn't do to the world. It doesn't help that she didn't witness the betrayal herself, so one can't really tell what, if anything, Ohgi might have told Kallen beyond what little we saw both of them talk about. It's entirely possible that she's still mostly in the dark about Villetta's true role in this.

What's more, there's also the fact that Ohgi was a close friend of her brother. It's not like Kallen can ignore that. She did question him about how they turned against Zero, but her reaction was a desire to directly talk to Lelouch, hoping that he would explain himself, rather than trying to debate the subject to death.
She was one of the few BKs who were on the lam during the interim year, and had been looking at pictures of Lelouch, which meant she might have known something about Villetta's OSI role.

And unfortunately, Ohgi disrespected her brother's memory by, without telling her about what was going on with the meeting, using her to bait Lelouch into the betrayal and her on gunpoint with him without letting her have any say, especially since she had just been busted from Britannian imprisonment where she was about to be executed.

Quote:
Given her reaction post-Zero Requiem, it's also fair to say that Kallen appreciates what Lelouch did for her and for the world, rather than holding any petty grudge for whatever happened in the past. I don't really think she is in the mood to throw rocks at anyone, literally or figuratively speaking.
It was still highly implausible she would so easily forgive them. On a superficial level, they basically cockblocked any hopes she had of a life with Lelouch, and more critically, the end of the conflict was more destructive than what could have been. Not to mention Villetta, one of the people to get a happy ending instead, was part of the problem instead, not the solution.

Last edited by azul120; 2013-08-22 at 18:14.
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Old 2013-08-22, 18:32   Link #23879
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So what should she do? Compromise the peace Lelouch obtained by throwing a fit to make herself and angry fanboys pissed Lelouch died feel better?

What could she possibly gain from holding a grudge against Ougi and Viletta at that point? What's done is done, and there's no point getting angry at what might have happened otherwise.
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Old 2013-08-22, 20:47   Link #23880
Xander
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She was one of the few BKs who were on the lam during the interim year, and had been looking at pictures of Lelouch, which meant she might have known something about Villetta's OSI role.
You're perfectly free to assume that, but she seemed to know little or nothing about it according to R2 episode 5.

Quote:
And unfortunately, Ohgi disrespected her brother's memory by, without telling her about what was going on with the meeting, using her to bait Lelouch into the betrayal and her on gunpoint with him without letting her have any say, especially since she had just been busted from Britannian imprisonment where she was about to be executed.
That's one possible interpretation, from an external observer, but her actions indicate a different thought process with another focus.

First, Kallen tried to defend Lelouch and die with him if necessary. Second, she was fooled by his lies and was willing to abandon him once he pushed her away. Third, she was confused by Lelouch's last words and tried to defend him again. Fourth, Kallen expressed her doubts about what Ohgi and the other Black Knights had done, but she still felt conflicted and wished to talk to Lelouch again. Fifth, they talk and there's a kiss but nothing happens. And finally, Lelouch pulls off the Evil Emperor act and she realizes it is necessary to stop him.

If Lelouch had been willing to be more forthcoming with her, perhaps Kallen would have calmed down or assumed the attitude you're suggesting. But we can tell her mind was too full of anxiety and uncertainty about Lelouch during a lot of the post-betrayal events, which tends to preclude making a big deal about what you're mentioning, since that requires firmly knowing he is actually right.

Quote:
It was still highly implausible she would so easily forgive them. On a superficial level, they basically cockblocked any hopes she had of a life with Lelouch, and more critically, the end of the conflict was more destructive than what could have been. Not to mention Villetta, one of the people to get a happy ending instead, was part of the problem instead, not the solution.
On the contrary, I find it entirely plausible for her character as portrayed in the series. Kallen is a very emotional girl and while she did love Lelouch, it was a relationship marked by a lot of tension and conflicting thoughts. I've already addressed the Villetta angle above.
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