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Old 2008-09-17, 12:58   Link #11281
bladeofdarkness
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before the events of ep 19 kallen was also kept away from lelouch and hence the plot (since lelouch is the main character, the plot natually happens wherever he's at)
but while her imprisonment did more or less remove her from any plot importent events (aside from the refrain bit) it didnt feel that pointless since
a)she was still involved in enough stuff to keep us intersted and
b)we were under the assumption that there is an actually meanning to her time in prison
ep 18 saw her return to the plot for about one and a half episodes and then once again she was shelved (ep 22 aside) from the plot
if ep 24 doesnt see her return to the plot in a big way then sunrise has pretty much been jerking us off for the entire course of the season
i know that the common joke is that the motto of the kalulu fandom is "there has to be a reason" but at this point i rather think it applys not to kalulu fans but rather to kallen fans
admittidly these two groups usually overlap since the vast majority of kallen's character this season has been about the romantic angle
but if kallen really doesnt end up becoming an essential part of the plot then her entire character is a story without a point or a joke without a punchline
no good show can exist on WTF value alone since who cares what events happen to characters you dont care about
and code geass has done an amasing work in terms of making us attached to the character which is why spending so much screen time developing kallen as a character and then not actually doing anything with her is both a waste and a kick in the balls to everyone who likes the character
cornelia was bad enough but at least she was a minor character and didnt have that much plot relevence beyond the geass hunt
kallen on the other hand is a main character and for getting all that screen time and development she has yet to play an essential part in the plot
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Old 2008-09-17, 13:05   Link #11282
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Which may be to die.

Seriously. C.C.'s statement of the Geass making Lelouch a lonely man has almost come true. Suzaku's by his side, but he's still there for the plan, and Kallen is/was the one other person Lelouch has/had left. The ownership of Geass basically certifies that the bearer will lose everything.
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Old 2008-09-17, 13:06   Link #11283
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller View Post
Which may be to die.

Seriously. C.C.'s statement of the Geass making Lelouch a lonely man has almost come true. Suzaku's by his side, but he's still there for the plan, and Kallen is/was the one other person Lelouch has/had left. The ownership of Geass basically certifies that the bearer will lose everything.
i rather she die after doing something really essential then stay on the shelf
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Old 2008-09-17, 13:18   Link #11284
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Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller View Post
Which may be to die.

Seriously. C.C.'s statement of the Geass making Lelouch a lonely man has almost come true. Suzaku's by his side, but he's still there for the plan, and Kallen is/was the one other person Lelouch has/had left. The ownership of Geass basically certifies that the bearer will lose everything.
That definitely makes sense, thematically, but there is always a chance that Lelouch's end will not follow that curse, and that he'll be able to break free. Some people think that would be unfair, but others disagree. We'll see.

If she's going to die, I hope that at least Kallen finally understands Lelouch in the process, not dying with doubts and leaving unanswered questions. Again, not because of romance, but for the sake of all the time they spent giving her character a role in the story that she wouldn't need to play otherwise.
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Old 2008-09-17, 13:18   Link #11285
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
before the events of ep 19 kallen was also kept away from lelouch and hence the plot (since lelouch is the main character, the plot natually happens wherever he's at)
but while her imprisonment did more or less remove her from any plot importent events (aside from the refrain bit) it didnt feel that pointless since
a)she was still involved in enough stuff to keep us intersted and
b)we were under the assumption that there is an actually meanning to her time in prison
ep 18 saw her return to the plot for about one and a half episodes and then once again she was shelved (ep 22 aside) from the plot
if ep 24 doesnt see her return to the plot in a big way then sunrise has pretty much been jerking us off for the entire course of the season
i know that the common joke is that the motto of the kalulu fandom is "there has to be a reason" but at this point i rather think it applys not to kalulu fans but rather to kallen fans
admittidly these two groups usually overlap since the vast majority of kallen's character this season has been about the romantic angle
but if kallen really doesnt end up becoming an essential part of the plot then her entire character is a story without a point or a joke without a punchline
no good show can exist on WTF value alone since who cares what events happen to characters you dont care about
and code geass has done an amasing work in terms of making us attached to the character which is why spending so much screen time developing kallen as a character and then not actually doing anything with her is both a waste and a kick in the balls to everyone who likes the character
cornelia was bad enough but at least she was a minor character and didnt have that much plot relevence beyond the geass hunt
kallen on the other hand is a main character and for getting all that screen time and development she has yet to play an essential part in the plot
Yes it would be rather disappointing if Kallen dies without even having a specific purpose to why she had much more screentime in this season.
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Old 2008-09-17, 13:25   Link #11286
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Quote:
Seriously. C.C.'s statement of the Geass making Lelouch a lonely man has almost come true
Things is, C.C also said that whoever success in breaking that curse would be worthy of being called King. (paraphrasing).

Meaning, if Lelouch "succumb" to the Geass's curse, he actually lose. By the way, in the episode where Kallen meet CChi, she commented that he was all alone now, i.e. she didn't include herself in his "to-lose" category then.
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Old 2008-09-17, 13:27   Link #11287
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
Things is, C.C also said that whoever success in breaking that curse would be worthy of being called King. (paraphrasing).

Meaning, if Lelouch "succumb" to the Geass's curse, he actually lose. By the way, in the episode where Kallen meet CChi, she commented that he was all alone now, i.e. she didn't include herself in his "to-lose" category then.
she doesnt know what she means to him
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Old 2008-09-17, 13:35   Link #11288
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
ep 18 saw her return to the plot for about one and a half episodes and then once again she was shelved (ep 22 aside) from the plot
if ep 24 doesnt see her return to the plot in a big way then sunrise has pretty much been jerking us off for the entire course of the season
i know that the common joke is that the motto of the kalulu fandom is "there has to be a reason" but at this point i rather think it applys not to kalulu fans but rather to kallen fans
YES, Like me, I don't care that much if she doesn't end up with Lulu in the end, but she better do something important though instead of being all emotional and stuff.. but unlike most of you guys, I still think she wont find out anything in the next episode... her gum line thing will probably be said in the last episode, when all is said and done.. and she FINALLY finds out why Lulu did what he did, and she probably asks him why he kept her out of it.. It sucks... but I have a feeling that is what they are going to do.. .... It makes no sense for her to confront Lulu then fight Suzaku after, but that's what happening in the next episode..so that means she still is not with Lulu
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Old 2008-09-17, 13:48   Link #11289
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Originally Posted by lovecakecookies View Post
YES, Like me, I don't care that much if she doesn't end up with Lulu in the end, but she better do something important though instead of being all emotional and stuff.. but unlike most of you guys, I still think she wont find out anything in the next episode... her gum line thing will probably be said in the last episode, when all is said and done.. and she FINALLY finds out why Lulu did what he did, and she probably asks him why he kept her out of it.. It sucks... but I have a feeling that is what they are going to do.. .... It makes no sense for her to confront Lulu then fight Suzaku after, but that's what happening in the next episode..so that means she still is not with Lulu
again
consider past events in the last episode you have
1)C.C having doubts about the plan
2)suzaku vowing to make lulu keep their promise by removing his weakness
so if kallen crashes into the hanger and confronts lulu
its probable that he wont tell her about what he's really after since he doesnt want to taint her with his sins
but its very possible that his actions would clue C.C unto the fact that while she cant make him turn away from the plan (since he trully believes that its the right thing) kallen might be able to (since he wont allow her to get involved, and if he doesnt tell her then he's willing to die by her hand rather then make her a part of it)
its very possible that C.C would keep kallen there while lulu leaves but once he's gone she could tell kallen the truth knowing that kallen would go after him to stop him
on her way she ends up confronting suzaku who views her as a risk to the plan (she is one of lulu's major weaknesses) and then they fight
both of them fighting all out becouse its for what they believe in

edit:
since one of you buggers is likely to point out the fact that he didnt stop the plan for nunnaly's sake then he wouldnt for kallen
allow me to point out one fact
he was in a great deal of pain at the very idea that he would have to fight nunnaly and it took suzaku violently shaking him inorder to get him back on track
this is not a balanced way of thinking since its like having a devil sit on one shoulder and no one on the other
C.C asked him about quiting but by that time he had already spent a great deal of time alone with suzaku's last words ringing in his ear (and you know someone is not stable when he puts the dead ona higher priority then the living in terms of who is effected by his actions)
at that point its too little too late and since C.C pretty much saw that she wont convince him she didnt even bother to try all that much
but if C.C sees that kallen could be in a position to oppose him and to sway him from the plan then she would also know kallen would not just take no for an answer
she would likely be more aggresive and more deceisive in her attempts to get him to turn back or to change the plan to something that does not include him destroying himself
my bet is that in the hanger scene lulu would not try and explain himself to kallen
im guessing he would either try and actually convince her to strike him down (rather then tell her the truth)
or refuse to tell her anything at all (which considering he just took the ikaruga down, is about the same thing)
either option is enough to let C.C know that kallen could be her way to convince lulu to back out of the plan
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Old 2008-09-17, 14:32   Link #11290
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
again
consider past events in the last episode you have
1)C.C having doubts about the plan
No she didn't. She never did either.

She proposed ending the plan because she wasn't sure if Lelouch would be able to handle having Nunnally onboard the Damacoles. She was speaking out for Nunnally's safety in which Lelouch replied that he could no longer treat Nunnally special. That was her main argument, "but Nunnally is on board...everything's been for her sake wasn't it?."

Quote:
2)suzaku vowing to make lulu keep their promise by removing his weakness
so if kallen crashes into the hanger and confronts lulu
its probable that he wont tell her about what he's really after since he doesnt want to taint her with his sins
but its very possible that his actions would clue C.C unto the fact that while she cant make him turn away from the plan (since he trully believes that its the right thing) kallen might be able to (since he wont allow her to get involved, and if he doesnt tell her then he's willing to die by her hand rather then make her a part of it)
So Zero Requiem is not the right thing to do?

We got a guy who wants to launch nukes across the world yet you guys are making Zero Requiem out like some sort of Neon Evangelion ending where everyone dies and is reborn.

I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
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Old 2008-09-17, 14:55   Link #11291
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
So Zero Requiem is not the right thing to do?

We got a guy who wants to launch nukes across the world yet you guys are making Zero Requiem out like some sort of Neon Evangelion ending where everyone dies and is reborn.

I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
We really do need to stop postulating on what the Zero Requiem is, we don't know. All we know is that it is a promise between Lelouch and Suzaku, and that it involves stopping Schneizel and dismantling the Britannian empire. There is likely more to it than that, but we cannot say if the rest of it is a good or bad direction for Lelouch and Suzaku to take. Once we know what it actually is, we can guess at what Kallen is supposed to do in lieu of knowing it.
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Old 2008-09-17, 15:02   Link #11292
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We really do need to stop postulating on what the Zero Requiem is, we don't know. All we know is that it is a promise between Lelouch and Suzaku, and that it involves stopping Schneizel and dismantling the Britannian empire. There is likely more to it than that, but we cannot say if the rest of it is a good or bad direction for Lelouch and Suzaku to take. Once we know what it actually is, we can guess at what Kallen is supposed to do in lieu of knowing it.
Yeah, I agree. There is just WAY too much that is still up in the air about it. We could probably make a better guess after 24, but that may not even be the case depending on if this final battle drags on into Episode 25 or not.
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Old 2008-09-17, 15:08   Link #11293
bladeofdarkness
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here is what we know
putting aside the fact that the plan would stop shnizels plan which we assume to be worse
we all know that the plans aim is probably for what lulu and suzaku think is best for the world
but even with all the best of intentions we are confronted by the fact that the first part of the plan involved lulu changing
from a morally ambigues but over all "good" person (for a given value of good) who goes to extreme lengths to protect those he loves and refrains from using his power in ways to would be considered vile (again, for a given value of vile) or despicalbe
into some kind of hybrid of hitler and skeletor
he uses his powers in the most viles ways imagineble and has thrown away or otherwise discarded what little moral restraint he once had

no matter how you look at it this plan has already destroyed lulu utterlly
this is not a man anymore
he is a monster in every sense of the word and while he is aware of the fact that its for a good couse it does not make him any less of one (him keeping kallen away might have something to do with him knowing that)
there are two kinds of monsters
those who can be still changed
and those who are beyond help
now the question is whether or not he can still be saved
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Old 2008-09-17, 15:32   Link #11294
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Hm... I still think Lelouch and Suzaku are doing the "right" thing.
And neither of them has become a monster.
I don't care what Lelouch does, as long as it doesn't bother me. It bothered me when he killed Clovis. It also bothers me that he is ready to "destroy" himself in order to reach his goal.
But I trust him and those around him to get it right in the end.
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Old 2008-09-17, 15:33   Link #11295
bladeofdarkness
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Hm... I still think Lelouch and Suzaku are doing the "right" thing.
And neither of them has become a monster.
I don't care what Lelouch does, as long as it doesn't bother me. It bothered me when he killed Clovis. It also bothers me that he is ready to "destroy" himself in order to reach his goal.
But I trust him and those around him to get it right in the end.
your faith may be misplaced
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Old 2008-09-17, 15:35   Link #11296
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your faith may be misplaced
Nah.
And "those around him" was supposed to include everyone he cares about. Like his old friends... and Kallen. ;P
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Old 2008-09-17, 16:01   Link #11297
lovecakecookies
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
again
consider past events in the last episode you have
1)C.C having doubts about the plan
2)suzaku vowing to make lulu keep their promise by removing his weakness
so if kallen crashes into the hanger and confronts lulu
its probable that he wont tell her about what he's really after since he doesnt want to taint her with his sins
but its very possible that his actions would clue C.C unto the fact that while she cant make him turn away from the plan (since he trully believes that its the right thing) kallen might be able to (since he wont allow her to get involved, and if he doesnt tell her then he's willing to die by her hand rather then make her a part of it)
its very possible that C.C would keep kallen there while lulu leaves but once he's gone she could tell kallen the truth knowing that kallen would go after him to stop him
on her way she ends up confronting suzaku who views her as a risk to the plan (she is one of lulu's major weaknesses) and then they fight
both of them fighting all out becouse its for what they believe in

edit:
since one of you buggers is likely to point out the fact that he didnt stop the plan for nunnaly's sake then he wouldnt for kallen
allow me to point out one fact
he was in a great deal of pain at the very idea that he would have to fight nunnaly and it took suzaku violently shaking him inorder to get him back on track
this is not a balanced way of thinking since its like having a devil sit on one shoulder and no one on the other
C.C asked him about quiting but by that time he had already spent a great deal of time alone with suzaku's last words ringing in his ear (and you know someone is not stable when he puts the dead ona higher priority then the living in terms of who is effected by his actions)
at that point its too little too late and since C.C pretty much saw that she wont convince him she didnt even bother to try all that much
but if C.C sees that kallen could be in a position to oppose him and to sway him from the plan then she would also know kallen would not just take no for an answer
she would likely be more aggresive and more deceisive in her attempts to get him to turn back or to change the plan to something that does not include him destroying himself
my bet is that in the hanger scene lulu would not try and explain himself to kallen
im guessing he would either try and actually convince her to strike him down (rather then tell her the truth)
or refuse to tell her anything at all (which considering he just took the ikaruga down, is about the same thing)
either option is enough to let C.C know that kallen could be her way to convince lulu to back out of the plan
As much as I agree that C.C doesn't like the plan, I mea her words may say one thing in the scene with Lulu, but looking at C.C's eyes...there is reason why they zoomed in so many times... they show doubt/worry in my opinion ...I think she may be up to something, but I don't know if it will have anything to do with letting Kallen know everything... I don't know, C.C doesn't seem to be the type to do such a thing.. If she does indeed try to do anything, I think she will just do it on her own.. IMO.....
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Old 2008-09-17, 16:21   Link #11298
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Originally Posted by lovecakecookies View Post
As much as I agree that C.C doesn't like the plan, I mea her words may say one thing in the scene with Lulu, but looking at C.C's eyes...there is reason why they zoomed in so many times... they show doubt/worry in my opinion ...I think she may be up to something, but I don't know if it will have anything to do with letting Kallen know everything... I don't know, C.C doesn't seem to be the type to do such a thing.. If she does indeed try to do anything, I think she will just do it on her own.. IMO.....
I would say her eyes primally represented longing.
Her expression was quite empty (as she was gazing into eptiness), yet mellow(as her motions were really calm and words were dyed in worry/concern ), and a bit exhausted.
I personally would say she was really concerned over the fact that Lelouch would face Nunaly aswell as in doupt how he could execute his plans.
So we agree at some point
And I doupt she would make Kallen to persuade Lelouch as you pointed out.
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Old 2008-09-17, 16:23   Link #11299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiter View Post
I would say her eyes primally represented longing.
Her expression was quite empty (as she was gazing into eptiness), yet mellow(as her motions were really calm and words were dyed in worry/concern ), and a bit exhausted.
I personally would say she was really concerned over the fact that Lelouch would face Nunaly aswell as in doupt how he could execute his plans.
So we agree at some point
She looks like a mother caring for her offspring
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Old 2008-09-17, 16:23   Link #11300
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Here is an idea that I don't think I've seen anyone else try and float yet. What if instead of C.C. telling Kallen about "Zero Requiem" (which may/may not motivate Kallen), what if C.C. addressed a topic much closer to Kallen's relative interest. What may that be do you say? Easy. Kallen's previous 2 conversations with Lelouch both ended with the exact same question.

"Lelouch, what am I to you?"

Now considering that Kallen has learned most of what she knows from other sources than Lelouch himself, I would not be overly surprised by the idea that her key question (Key, because she was willing to die depending on the answer) would be answered by someone other than Lelouch. Now we have a situation where Kallen may still not have a clue in the world what lelouch is planning...but her own motivations may be completely flipped.

added note : and I do not mean answer as in "hey, you want to know what he thinks about you ne?", but just tells kallen. To our knowledge, C.C. doesn't know kallen has asked this specific question, but probably does know Kallen cares about lelouch as more than just a leader.

Last edited by kir44n; 2008-09-17 at 16:26. Reason: additional note
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