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Old 2008-09-20, 16:58   Link #12201
Revolutionist
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Originally Posted by Vito View Post
Terrorist brother? Do we even know what he did, sure he was part of the group, but do we know what role he played? Kallen certainly isn't innocent, but this is war for independence, should she sprinkle the enemy with flower petals? Have they even shown Kallen killing any civilians?
well, she killed a ton of civvies including Shirley's dad. This was indirectly though, and part of Lelouch's plan, but she did pull the trigger so she's just as guilty as the guy who planned it all.
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Old 2008-09-20, 17:01   Link #12202
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
well, she killed a ton of civvies including Shirley's dad. This was indirectly though, and part of Lelouch's plan, but she did pull the trigger so she's just as guilty as the guy who planned it all.
So apart from that incident? She's not as guilty as the guy who planned it all. She was merely following orders. I'm not saying she's innocent but you've got one hell of a black and white approach here Aside from that, I belive the device was more effective than it was thought to be, so it was also more of a planning error.
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Old 2008-09-20, 17:16   Link #12203
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
well, she killed a ton of civvies including Shirley's dad. This was indirectly though, and part of Lelouch's plan, but she did pull the trigger so she's just as guilty as the guy who planned it all.
IIRC, even Lelouch didn't expect the explosion to be that big. I think he was only aiming for the Brittanian military but Nina's calculations were off.

Of course, he didn't care much since he got the result he wanted anyway until he found out about Shirley's dad.
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Old 2008-09-20, 17:16   Link #12204
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Here's my thing with Kallen, she's killed so many people under the pretense of being a resistance fighter and avenging her dead terrorist brother, that at this point she must die in order to atone for her sins.
Lelouch killed so many people under the pretense of giving his sister a peaceful world and avenging his mother. Suzaku killed so many people under the pretense of 'changing Britannia from within.' C.C. wanted to (in essence) kill everyone on earth w/ Charles and Marianne until Lelouch convinced her otherwise (and allowed Lelouch to kill alot of people under a false pretense).

As early as season 1, episode 9, Kallen showed signs that she regretted killing people, and in episode 13 she admits that she hates doing it, but does it for the sake of justice. Compared to most people in the show who don't seem to have a problem with killing people, I'd say Kallen is one of the few people that doesn't deserve to die.
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Old 2008-09-20, 17:25   Link #12205
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Lelouch killed so many people under the pretense of giving his sister a peaceful world and avenging his mother. Suzaku killed so many people under the pretense of 'changing Britannia from within.' C.C. wanted to (in essence) kill everyone on earth w/ Charles and Marianne until Lelouch convinced her otherwise (and allowed Lelouch to kill alot of people under a false pretense).

As early as season 1, episode 9, Kallen showed signs that she regretted killing people, and in episode 13 she admits that she hates doing it, but does it for the sake of justice. Compared to most people in the show who don't seem to have a problem with killing people, I'd say Kallen is one of the few people that doesn't deserve to die.
Uh, Suzaku was the same way until the F.L.E.I.J.A. incident he believed that the ends achieved by using the wrong means are meaningless, since he created peace through murder. So who cares she regretted it murder is murder regardless did she regret killing Lucanio and the Valkyries, no, she's a warrior on the battlefield and that's different from someone like say Rolo who kills gleefully for the hell of it and never thinks of the results ahead time. Kallen fate is just your personal preference about her, doesn't deserve to die, bah! Everyone's fair game in the series my friend she's no different than anyone else. The atrocities of everyone cannot be forgotten.
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Old 2008-09-20, 17:25   Link #12206
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If anyone truly deserves to die, it certainly isn't Kallen. Suzaku and Lelouch deserve it far more, and even C.C. for spreading Geass around. Her chances of dying are at best 50/50. I seriously doubt they'll kill her, though.
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Old 2008-09-20, 17:27   Link #12207
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I don't think people are obligated to die for their sins since everyone has committed a sin one way or another and that justification of it is based on the lie that is your moral intention. If people die, it isn't because they deserve it. It's because they were in the wrong place and wrong time. Just the way it is. But seeing as this is an anime certain characters have plot armor
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Old 2008-09-20, 17:30   Link #12208
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Like the four main characters, though C.C. is actually less likely to live through all of this than she is to die.
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Old 2008-09-20, 17:32   Link #12209
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
If anyone truly deserves to die, it certainly isn't Kallen. Suzaku and Lelouch deserve it far more, and even C.C. for spreading Geass around. Her chances of dying are at best 50/50. I seriously doubt they'll kill her, though.
Please elaborate, the only person I see that doesn't deserve to die are Milly and Rivalz since they had no involvement with this war Lelouch has started. Like Isaid before Kallen is a warriror on the battlefield as Suzaku was a soldier for the Britannian Army before he decided to join Lelouch so it was their duty to kill under orders that's how war is, granted her kill count isn't as high as his (live command accident mind you) it still doesn't change the fact that to this day they've killed to achieve their goals.
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Old 2008-09-20, 17:44   Link #12210
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Originally Posted by Dandylion View Post
Please elaborate, the only person I see that doesn't deserve to die are Milly and Rivalz since they had no involvement with this war Lelouch has started. Like Isaid before Kallen is a warriror on the battlefield as Suzaku was a soldier for the Britannian Army before he decided to join Lelouch so it was their duty to kill under orders that's how war is, granted her kill count isn't as high as his (live command accident mind you) it still doesn't change the fact that to this day they've killed to achieve their goals.
If you want an explanation, fine, but I don't intend on arguing it any further. This is the Kallen thread, after all, and it's only slightly relevant. Plus the episode is coming up and will settle this anyway.

Suzaku deserves to die far more because he, especially in the second season, has no problem with killing people, especially when they're not doing things his way. Hell, he killed his father for that very reason. God forbid the Japanese fight for their country, despite the odds. No, the violence was wrong so he killed his father. Sure he regrets it, but he was old enough to know what he did was wrong. Then he joins up with the people who enslaved his country in the first place, and fights against his own people trying to free it. I've never liked Suzaku because of this. He simply has no pride.

Lelouch has taken all the lives he has for a primary desire for revenge. Only recently has world peace even superseded that revenge. Then there's all the lives he's ruined through Geass.

Kallen has done comparatively little killing, and all of it as a soldier and/or freedom fighter. From the beginning she has been fighting an unjust empire to free her country. Even now she's fighting the guy she loves because he's using deplorable methods to conquer the world (at least at face value).

So in short, Kallen has hardly sinned to any significant degree, whereas those other two are much worse in the sins they've committed.
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Old 2008-09-20, 18:08   Link #12211
youngde
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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
I don't think people are obligated to die for their sins since everyone has committed a sin one way or another and that justification of it is based on the lie that is your moral intention. If people die, it isn't because they deserve it. It's because they were in the wrong place and wrong time. Just the way it is. But seeing as this is an anime certain characters have plot armor
THANK YOU for posting that. My whole point of my post was that EVERY, SINGLE person in this series has done some really bad stuff. And every single one of them have done it for their own selfish motives one way or another. There's no such thing as a completely selfless act; all people have their own agenda. Lelouch is one of the worst of them all. Granted the worst have been Lelouch's parents (subduing the world to get hold of a weapon that can fry all of humanity is NOT cool) and Schneizel (wanting to rain down destruction and fear from on high as god, also, NOT cool). But everyone's done some crappy stuff.

At least some people in the series (Lelouch, Kallen, C.C. once the truth of Marianne came out, and Suzaku before he went a little nuts) have shown some amount of remorse for the things that they have done/are doing. That makes them somewhat more sympathetic.

The fact of the matter is, if everyone got what was coming to them, everyone except maybe Rival and Milly would die at this point, which I'm pretty sure won't happen. I'm not saying Kallen is a saint; she probably did alot of bad crap as a terrorist, but she did overcome her hatred of Britannians in general (mostly because of her friends on the student council) and she's hasn't intentionally hurt civilians (in series at any rate). So at least she's gotten better.

Personally, I don't want anyone to die due to their 'sins.' Judge not lest ye be judged and all that. I would rather everyone make it and be able to atone for what they've done. But we'll just see.
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Old 2008-09-20, 18:20   Link #12212
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
If you want an explanation, fine, but I don't intend on arguing it any further. This is the Kallen thread, after all, and it's only slightly relevant. Plus the episode is coming up and will settle this anyway.

Suzaku deserves to die far more because he, especially in the second season, has no problem with killing people, especially when they're not doing things his way. Hell, he killed his father for that very reason. God forbid the Japanese fight for their country, despite the odds. No, the violence was wrong so he killed his father. Sure he regrets it, but he was old enough to know what he did was wrong. Then he joins up with the people who enslaved his country in the first place, and fights against his own people trying to free it. I've never liked Suzaku because of this. He simply has no pride.

Lelouch has taken all the lives he has for a primary desire for revenge. Only recently has world peace even superseded that revenge. Then there's all the lives he's ruined through Geass.

Kallen has done comparatively little killing, and all of it as a soldier and/or freedom fighter. From the beginning she has been fighting an unjust empire to free her country. Even now she's fighting the guy she loves because he's using deplorable methods to conquer the world (at least at face value).

So in short, Kallen has hardly sinned to any significant degree, whereas those other two are much worse in the sins they've committed.
I think you missed the entire point, but whatever you obviously want to stick by this notion and once agin you've excused her since she's in your favorites list so at this point why go any further if your going continue defending her over the same damn reasons.
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Old 2008-09-20, 18:30   Link #12213
youngde
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Personally, I don't particularly blame Suzaku OR Kallen for the deaths that occured while they were fighting for the Britannian Military and the OotBKs, respectively. Both were soldiers fighting for what they honestly believed was right. Both regretted the fact that they needed to kill in order to do what they believed was right. I don't want to get into a huge debate as to whether killing during a war is heroic or murder; I think such things are out of the scope of an anime internet forum. Even they, themselves, agreed to keep their differences on the battlefield when they discovered what each other were (until all hell broke loose at any rate).
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Old 2008-09-20, 18:36   Link #12214
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Personally, I don't particularly blame Suzaku OR Kallen for the deaths that occured while they were fighting for the Britannian Military and the OotBKs, respectively. Both were soldiers fighting for what they honestly believed was right. Both regretted the fact that they needed to kill in order to do what they believed was right. I don't want to get into a huge debate as to whether killing during a war is heroic or murder; I think such things are out of the scope of an anime internet forum. Even they, themselves, agreed to keep their differences on the battlefield when they discovered what each other were (until all hell broke loose at any rate).
I agree I'm serving in the Air Force right now and when war is an issue its not just your life on the line its everyone's else as well, I agree wholeheartedly with you and I don't want this to turn into a morality debate of whether killing is wrong, my issue stems from the fact people excuse Kallen for her actions as a whole and just because she feels bad for killing doesn't qualify as a worthwhile indebt, hell Shirley shot someone and felt bad for it and look what happened. Anyway I think I'll end this right here.
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Old 2008-09-20, 18:43   Link #12215
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Originally Posted by Vito View Post
So apart from that incident? She's not as guilty as the guy who planned it all. She was merely following orders. I'm not saying she's innocent but you've got one hell of a black and white approach here Aside from that, I belive the device was more effective than it was thought to be, so it was also more of a planning error.
When anyone else obeys orders, they're the evil scrappy/a horrible terrorist.

When Kallen obeys orders, she still farts pixie dust and kittens.

Got it.

Hey, we're getting SOMEWHERE. Oppression of females is gone, it's just going in the opposite direction.
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Old 2008-09-20, 18:57   Link #12216
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When anyone else obeys orders, they're the evil scrappy/a horrible terrorist.

When Kallen obeys orders, she still farts pixie dust and kittens.

Got it.

Hey, we're getting SOMEWHERE. Oppression of females is gone, it's just going in the opposite direction.
That's what everyone thinks I suppose....
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Old 2008-09-20, 18:58   Link #12217
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That's what everyone thinks I suppose....
I don't agree with that point of view.

At least Suzaku was following orders from an established government, Kallen in the other hand was just a TERRORIST. It doesn't get more clear cut that than IMO ^_^
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Old 2008-09-20, 19:00   Link #12218
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I don't agree with that point of view.

At least Suzaku was following orders from an established government, Kallen in the other hand was just a TERRORIST. It doesn't get more clear cut that than IMO ^_^
Now, Suzaku's my favorite character...but I don't think it's really that simple. >_> A well established government doesn't equal out to a good one. His intentions were noble, but damn if he didn't make plenty of mistakes along the way. But at the same time, people are WAY too easy on Kallen just because she apparently has this GIANT fanboy/fangirl following all of a sudden. Seriously, they weren't quite this insane before, say, ep 15ish. Now that we're at the penultimate episode, they've grown rather rabid.
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Old 2008-09-20, 19:02   Link #12219
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Now, Suzaku's my favorite character...but I don't think it's really that simple. >_> A well established government doesn't equal out to a good one.
Yep. You'd think someone with the ID "Revolutionist" would know that before hand.
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Old 2008-09-20, 19:03   Link #12220
youngde
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I don't agree with that point of view.

At least Suzaku was following orders from an established government, Kallen in the other hand was just a TERRORIST. It doesn't get more clear cut that than IMO ^_^
Along that line of reasoning, the American Revolution was a big act of terrorism and the USA's founding fathers were terrorists. At any rate, this has been discussed before, and I'm not going to do it again. This is the last you'll hear from me on this particular subject.
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