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Old 2008-09-23, 20:48   Link #13641
prototype_sky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
Because the ground collapsed; We could tell the same about the Turn 6 of R2 fight, Kallen obtain her wing pack and dominated Suzaku who had already his wing pack...hard to see who is better imo.

Eliarine : We don't even know what is Zero requiem, how you can "activate" it, and what is neeed to do so; Moreover Suzaku could very well join Lelouch even if he is defeated, nothing is changing there.

And Kallen's resolution is important to the plot; She is a main character (yeah, I swear it's the case) and her devellopment took a bunch of screentime...add this to her gumline and it's not hard to get that she is going to see Lelouch one more time. :P

She could be defeated, but she could defeat too. The 25 of S1 where with the whole Lelouch, Suzaku and Kallen confrontation, in Kaminejima because of Nunally. Everything is there to put a new parallel at this point.

Uchiha : Tsss Suzaku has the Live On geass, but Kallen has the Live on Love. And Koi wa pawaaa !
*Already off*
Well its the final battle

Suzaku is fighting for his promise
Kallen is fighting to end Lulu

Suzaku advantages
-Live Geass
-Fightning with protaganist (Pretty Much his last line of defense)
-Latest Model Mech
-Better Win Record Vs Aces
-His mech is more promoted
-Fighting to Protect
-Kinda Lost the Battle
-Spin Kick
-In on the master plan
-Has a deeper relationship Lulu
-Less likely to kill anyone since the 0/5 last episode

Kallen advantages
-Berserker
-Radiation Arm
-Gino Support?
-Gum Line?
-Fan Service
-Could be considered the Underdog

Suzaku disadvantages
-Defensive Fightning
-Had to Fight too many opponents leading up to this fight
-Too many reasons for him to win this fight
-The protaganist is all shades of grey

Kallen disadvantages
-Fighting against protaganist
-Rushes in too much not to big on Strategy
-Shooting down CC
-Not in on the master plan
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Old 2008-09-23, 20:58   Link #13642
Lolipopo
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While in Tvtrops, I saw that Kallen have been labelled in a whole of new sections, and I particulary like those two :

Quote:
[Moment Killer: Taken to truly ridiculous degrees in the second season when almost every single conversation she has with Lelouch will A) seem to bring them closer only to B) interrupted in some random way (causes of interuption can range from a simple radio call to someone walking in on them [usually that someone seemingly appears out of thin air] to them walking into a deadly ambush)
Typically Kalulu-ish...

Quote:
Die For Our Ship: After kissing Lelouch and choosing her beliefs over the Evil Overlord persona he's projected lately, Lelouch x C.C and Suzaku x Lelouch (more the first than the latter, apparently) fans have been bashing her ferociously.
Hard to deny it here, humm ?

And other truth as...

Quote:
Love Martyr: Arguably since Magnificent Bastard (or not) Lelouch has some problems.
Finally, people admit it !
And By the way, about Lelouch...

Quote:
You know Lelouch has Publicity problems when even Kallen herself (KALLEN!) is now willing to take him down.
It's fun to read Tv trops sometimes :P

Opps I didn't saw this.

Suzaku is fighting for his promise = For his ZR ? yeah, but is he really necessary to the plan ? Right now he is fighting to keep kallen away from lelouch.
Kallen is fighting to end Lulu = She is fighting toreach Lelouch. No one knows what she will do really when this will happen.

Suzaku advantages
-Live Geass = Granted
-Fightning with protaganist (Pretty Much his last line of defense) = When the protagonist is to the whole world the antagonist, hard to give this as an advantage.
-Latest Model Mech = Well SEITEN is....
-Better Win Record Vs Aces = Kallen can defeat an army alone, I think they are pretty equal right now.
-His mech is more promoted = Huh ?
-Fighting to Protect = To stop Kallen, his point isn't ā la Kira yamato "I'm fighting to protect the world"; at this state, he isn't really a good guy since we know nothing about ZR.
-Kinda Lost the Battle = ?
-Spin Kick = Kallen already defeat it once, it's no more a problem :P
-In on the master plan = One more time, we don't know if his presence is required
-Has a deeper relationship Lulu = On a different level I'll tell, and since he knows him since his childhood...
-Less likely to kill anyone since the 0/5 last episode = ?

Kallen advantages
-Berserker = Badass. I prefer.
-Radiation Arm =This is only an arm...
-Gino Support? = Are you kidding ? Gino can't do anything in his state.
-Gum Line = No need of the "?" this line is a very fact.
-Fan Service = LOL
-Could be considered the Underdog = LOLē

Suzaku disadvantages
-Defensive Fightning = Not all the time...
-Had to Fight too many opponents leading up to this fight = And Kallen was drinking some tea.
-Too many reasons for him to win this fight =Same for Kallen maybe ?
-The protaganist is all shades of grey = And ?

Kallen disadvantages
-Fighting against protaganist = Not from everyone's point of view, she is actually fighting for what she is seeing as the justice. The Protagonist is an anti hero...hard to use this as an advantage to him.
-Rushes in too much not to big on Strategy = This has never been a problem to her and well...Suzaku isn't really the type of guy who is using his brain in fight.
-Shooting down CC = And so ? CC admit her defeat (but about what..;?)
-Not in on the master plan = Push away by Lelouch to her own good and is ready to everything to reach him.

So some of your advantages are disavantages to me and vice versa...nothing is really coming out of this.
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Last edited by Lolipopo; 2008-09-23 at 21:10.
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Old 2008-09-23, 21:02   Link #13643
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
Hey, you seem to know a lot more about this super secret plan than the rest of us. Care to share the knowledge?

Also, last time they met Kallen destroyed the Lancelot in a second. I don't see her winning that easily after such a clear victory.
It's a matter of common sense. They're not taking over the world in what, generously, amounts to half an episode, especially when Lelouch gave up his hostages. Damocles is the only threat left to the future he wants, and he all but controls it now.

As for Kallen winning last time, she had the vastly superior mech, and Suzaku needed to nuke Tokyo. It doesn't mean anything to an even fight. You forget that Suzaku got to Hadron blast her into the ocean in Turn 6.
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Old 2008-09-23, 21:10   Link #13644
lousylaus
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
It doesn't mean anything to an even fight. You forget that Suzaku got to Hadron blast her into the ocean in Turn 6.
Wasn't this when she got that upgrade right after and was right back to him and got the upper hand then. No one got the win.
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Old 2008-09-23, 21:10   Link #13645
prototype_sky
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
It's a matter of common sense. They're not taking over the world in what, generously, amounts to half an episode, especially when Lelouch gave up his hostages. Damocles is the only threat left to the future he wants, and he all but controls it now.

As for Kallen winning last time, she had the vastly superior mech, and Suzaku needed to nuke Tokyo. It doesn't mean anything to an even fight. You forget that Suzaku got to Hadron blast her into the ocean in Turn 6.
Yeah but in that same episode she got an upgrade and proceeded to damage his mech until he had to runnaway focusing on nunnally
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Old 2008-09-23, 21:14   Link #13646
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by lousylaus View Post
Wasn't this when she got that upgrade right after and was right back to him and got the upper hand then. No one got the win.
Still, he got to defeat her and she got to come back. He lost his Lancelot and got Albion when he came back.
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Old 2008-09-23, 21:24   Link #13647
prototype_sky
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
Suzaku is fighting for his promise = For his ZR ? yeah, but is he really necessary to the plan ? Right now he is fighting to keep kallen away from lelouch.
Kallen is fighting to end Lulu = She is fighting toreach Lelouch. No one knows what she will do really when this will happen.
Well yes suzaku is still necessary. Lulu said so himself back in episode 22
(JD = Keeping BK from raping Lulu before the plan has been executed
So until Gino and Kallen are not longer a threat the mission still stands)

From a show stand point Suzaku and Kallen main purpose now is to put on an
awesome final mech battle show a draw is the most likely outcome. Either way
Lulu and Nunnally conversation cannot be interrupted and will probably reach a conclusion before Kallen or Suzaku can intervene

Also unless Suzaku says or does something to calm her down or make have to reach him on foot Lulu is a dead man. Time for asking questions seemed to expired back in episode 22. Either that or Nunnally begs her to spare her brother if she's there
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Old 2008-09-23, 21:49   Link #13648
youngde
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You know Lelouch has Publicity problems when even Kallen herself (KALLEN!) is now willing to take him down.
Well, it's not so much publicity as a series of delibrate and not delibrate actions Lelouch did that distanced her from him:

-Takes away any assurance that he had ever given her by saying that the WHOLE time he has been playing a game with her. (Delibrate)
-Tells her to 'Live On,' but then is unexpectedly rescued by Rolo. Kallen has no way of knowing that wasn't planned. (Not Delibrate)
-Kallen's other source of assurance, C.C., takes off on her own. (Not Delibrate).
-After a month long absense, Lelouch appears as the new Emperor of the power he always swore he would destroy w/ the person that tried to use Refrain on Kallen taking over her position (Delibrate).
-At this point, Kallen's faith is very delicate, being held together by the fact that he told her to 'live on.' However, w/ everything that's happened, it could have very well been a mind screw. She tries to get answers from Lelouch, but he (presumably because he can't lie to her) says nothing. (Delibrate)
-Her faith is shattered when Lelouch's typical double intention becomes 'known' where he attacks a peace summit and takes hostages. Kallen, of course, has no way to know that this particular plan has a triple intention. (Delibrate)
-During the battle he uses pretty underhanded techniques such as blowing up a mountain, destroying BKs and his own troops. The fact that all his troops follow him because their Geassed can't help much either (Delibrate).

Why did Lelouch do it? I'm thinking a combination of things: his feeling for her (romantic or friendship), not wanting her to have to make the decision of fighting him or her friends in the BKs, not wanting her to be villified w/ the rest of them so she can return to a normal life, to offer her some degree of protection, to not have someone not committed to the 'Demon's Path' on his side and be a potential liability, etc.

Here's hoping there's an answer for this in the last episode. Otherwise, I'll be pissed. It's not like it would take that long.

youngde, signing off.
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Old 2008-09-23, 21:51   Link #13649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
A badass mother is facing him. And she is pissed off. I'll be a little worry, if I was him.
Sorry. Had to backtrack and fix that. It was begging to be fixed.
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Old 2008-09-23, 21:53   Link #13650
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by youngde View Post
-Takes away any assurance that he had ever given her by saying that the WHOLE time he has been playing a game with her. (Delibrate)
Lelouch negated that with his next line. I doubt she believes he was serious given her attitude about the betrayal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prototype_sky View Post
Also unless Suzaku says or does something to calm her down or make have to reach him on foot Lulu is a dead man. Time for asking questions seemed to expired back in episode 22. Either that or Nunnally begs her to spare her brother if she's there
We don't know if she really would have pulled that trigger in the hanger. C.C. had her pinned real quick.
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Old 2008-09-23, 21:58   Link #13651
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Still, he got to defeat her and she got to come back. He lost his Lancelot and got Albion when he came back.
Are we all basing this on the fact that since person A got this win then person B must get the next win to be fair?

The two have a promise to keep and that is to enact Zero Requiem. Summary for episode 25 states that specifically.

Nunnally and Kallen are therefore Lelouch's and Suzaku's last obstacle before this plan comes to fruition. I'm guessing Damacoles is their instrument to do it (or not). I don't see any parallels to S1 ending because it was a mexican stand-off. Here each man has his own obstacle to defeat.

I'm hoping for the fight to go this way.
-They fight in the air
-Albion damages Guren's arm (but not completely disable it)
-Guren tackles Albion into the fortress
-Lancelot loses its gun and sword
-Brutal hand to hand combat results (Remember S1 where Suzaku completely smashed Lelouch's mech when he killed those JFL? Let's see that between Albion and Guren, THEN it'll be a fair fight)

Quote:
Takes away any assurance that he had ever given her by saying that the WHOLE time he has been playing a game with her. (Delibrate)
Which he admitted in S1.

Quote:
Her faith is shattered when Lelouch's typical double intention becomes 'known' where he attacks a peace summit and takes hostages. Kallen, of course, has no way to know that this particular plan has a triple intention. (Delibrate)
Which he did before during the China Arc

Quote:
-During the battle he uses pretty underhanded techniques such as blowing up a mountain, destroying BKs and his own troops. The fact that all his troops follow him because their Geassed can't help much either (Delibrate).
Which he's done before as many people have already pointed out.

Not that I don't want to label Kallen an idiot (cause even the BK's dont' realize it) but I don't see why she can be pissed at his actions when he's been doing the same thing when she was on his side. (On the outside it looked evil, but on the inside he had a hidden motive)

Quote:
We don't know if she really would have pulled that trigger in the hanger. C.C. had her pinned real quick.
Yeah having a giant claw aimed at you and coming towards to crush you defintely means she wasn't going to do it. I doub there was suppose to be any hidden meaning in the scene.

She's not eager to do it though.
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Old 2008-09-23, 22:05   Link #13652
dec4rhapsody
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngde View Post

Why did Lelouch do it? I'm thinking a combination of things: his feeling for her (romantic or friendship), not wanting her to have to make the decision of fighting him or her friends in the BKs, not wanting her to be villified w/ the rest of them so she can return to a normal life, to offer her some degree of protection, to not have someone not committed to the 'Demon's Path' on his side and be a potential liability, etc.

Here's hoping there's an answer for this in the last episode. Otherwise, I'll be pissed. It's not like it would take that long.

youngde, signing off.

Hmm, perhaps + her being a handicap to his plan.
Fighting her friends=>hesitation

Plus, he should've cared less.

Diethard: partiality!
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Old 2008-09-23, 22:05   Link #13653
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Are we all basing this on the fact that since person A got this win then person B must get the next win to be fair?

The two have a promise to keep and that is to enact Zero Requiem. Summary for episode 25 states that specifically.

Nunnally and Kallen are therefore Lelouch's and Suzaku's last obstacle before this plan comes to fruition. I'm guessing Damacoles is their instrument to do it (or not).
I'm basing it more on last season parallel and general desire. I think Kallen, as she is now, isn't going to be stopped by Suzaku, and I don't see him being the one to calm her down.

As for their promise, Knightmare combat is not going to be an issue much longer. Whatever their plan, this is the crux of it. Worst-case, Suzaku ejects back into Damocles and takes the elevator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I'm hoping for the fight to go this way.
-They fight in the air
-Albion damages Guren's arm (but not completely disable it)
-Guren tackles Albion into the fortress
-Lancelot loses its gun and sword
-Brutal hand to hand combat results (Remember S1 where Suzaku completely smashed Lelouch's mech when he killed those JFL? Let's see that between Albion and Guren, THEN it'll be a fair fight)
I don't think Kallen can make a proper fist with the radiation hand. Also, Suzaku had the superior mech against Lelouch. Remember when he tried it on Kallen in Stage 23? He broke his hand off. Hand to hand melee combat won't work well here.
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Old 2008-09-23, 22:05   Link #13654
prototype_sky
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I don't see why she can be pissed at his actions when he's been doing the same thing when she was on his side.
This is my problem with Kallen, she should be the last person in the BK wanting to attack him because she knew since the start of Season 2.
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Old 2008-09-23, 22:07   Link #13655
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Um. She is the last person wanting to attack him. Everyone else decided to attack lelouch loooong before Kallen did.
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Old 2008-09-23, 22:09   Link #13656
prototype_sky
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Um. She is the last person wanting to attack him. Everyone else decided to attack lelouch loooong before Kallen did.
That was the Kallen back in Episode 19 when Lulu was still an ally in her book

In Episode 24 she is the first person rushing to Kill him
Xingke seem more concerned about the hostages than Lulu
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Old 2008-09-23, 22:12   Link #13657
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by prototype_sky View Post
That was the Kallen back in Episode 19 when Lulu was still an ally in her book

In Episode 24 she is the first person rushing to Kill him
Xingke seem more concerned about the hostages than Lulu
Kallen only cares about Lelouch, that's why. Xingke cares about Tianzi.
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Old 2008-09-23, 22:17   Link #13658
youngde
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post

We don't know if she really would have pulled that trigger in the hanger. C.C. had her pinned real quick.
Which, begs the question, how did she get into her KMF so damn quick? She was on the floor w/ Lelouch when Kallen busted, Kallen said Sayonara, and then went after him. Then Bam, C.C. cold-cocks her. She got into the pink Lancelot and had it running in like 4 seconds. I can't get into my car and get it started that fast.
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Old 2008-09-23, 22:20   Link #13659
prototype_sky
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Which, begs the question, how did she get into her KMF so damn quick? She was on the floor w/ Lelouch when Kallen busted, Kallen said Sayonara, and then went after him. Then Bam, C.C. cold-cocks her. She got into the pink Lancelot and had it running in like 4 seconds. I can't get into my car and get it started that fast.
She had just got out of it

the keys was still in the ignition
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Old 2008-09-23, 22:21   Link #13660
dec4rhapsody
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She had just got out of it

the keys was still in the ignition
And I thought it was teleport....
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