AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Code Geass

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-01-28, 14:37   Link #18101
yvj
U Mad?
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Brooklyn NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post


Good analysis, as expected of you. {and i mean it, honest |D}


Hee hee now I'm blushing


Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
Though, frankly, i am 50/50 if Kallen would go through with Zero Requiem. I mean, i guess, eventually she would accept it and probably would help him, but, i believe she would not agree at all in the beginning. Oh well, we'll never know how she would react for sure, so let's leave it like this.
You're right that we can't know for sure what she would have done. I do believe she would have been against it at first but I also believe that Lelouch could have found a way to make her see that the "END RESULT" was all that mattered.

Kallen was a terrorist, then she became a soldier. Assuming she could have accepted Lelouch bombing those old guys in the sub, Euphie and Shirley + when she learned the truth of ZR she seemed to have forgiven him for hitting her friends with a Volcano. Its not that hard to see that Kallen could accept "The ends justify the means" In fact I think it's 60-40 she would have accepted it if (AND only him) Lelouch explained how he would bring the world peace by creating a monster role.

Not even lying to her. If he flat out told her the truth.

Though obviously Kallen would have wanted to limit as much casualties as possible. Which probably would have made ZR unrealistic. By the end Suzaku and Lelouch had no qualms about the number of lives lost on the battlefield.

And most likely she wouldn't have been down with Lelouch wanting to kill himself. Unlike Suzaku I don't think she would have accepted living on and having Lelouch be the only one to die. She probably would have insisted on dying with him.


Yeah it's hard to know what she would have done....I may be down to 55-45 actually


Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
And btw, since the kiss-scene was mentioned, i tend to see that a few people still use the "cold-kiss-scene, it meant nothing" card. And i honestly fail to see this, in terms that it was completely the opposite. Even before the NT booklet or anything.
I mean, everything seems cold and distant, and yet when she reaches for him and pulls him close, he can’t help but close his eyes and relish in her touch/kiss. {i always have to add a romantic touch when it comes to this couple even when i am trying not to, beats me why. |D;;}
Lelouch basically lets Kallen take him

Seriously though there couldn't be more visual cues for there to show that Lelouch felt something during that kiss. It leads me to believe either people gloss over subtext, do not believe in the existence of subtlety, or are ignoring things because it's convenient.

Apparently Lelouch had to forget what was going on around him and grab Kallen's ass before some people would even consider that they were really close.


Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
Overall, romance or not {as leaving that one aside}, Kallen shares a very deep bond with Lelouch, from the start of S1. He was like her Pygmalion, from the moment he appeared in her life, he gave her hope, dreams and all these things she mentions in her poem.
So, it would actually be out of character if she had not insisted on following him more than one time.
Rationality + feelings for her are in sync, till episode 22.
After the confrontation with Lelouch and the "goodbye", it is her rationality {aka ideals+beliefs} that keeps her going, she tosses her emotions aside because she has to. <--in reference to Levy's post about the month-skip.
Nice analogy with Pygmalion. I do believe in the end her ideals and beliefs had taken over but I don't think Kallen tossed her emotions aside. She channeled them into something else. Her fierce admiration for Lelouch turned into a fierce determination to stop him. She tried to change love into hate and seemed to have succeed until EP 25
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic81253_4.gif
yvj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-28, 15:04   Link #18102
incorrupts
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greece
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to incorrupts
Quote:
Originally Posted by yvj View Post

Nice analogy with Pygmalion. I do believe in the end her ideals and beliefs had taken over but I don't think Kallen tossed her emotions aside. She channeled them into something else. Her fierce admiration for Lelouch turned into a fierce determination to stop him. She tried to change love into hate and seemed to have succeed until EP 25

Now it is my turn to blush. {i blush in canon? |DD}
But yeah, i see him as her Pygmalion. It actually sounds romantic which serves me well. |DD;;

Oh about that, i did not make it clear. When i said "emotions" i meant all those quality-emotions {even romantic love as well} that made her love him.
And it was really hard for her to "let go" and push away her feelings, it still was {you can see her crying before she fries his ass, and btw, that was not "revenge" feeling a lot of people said back then. Revenge does not trigger tears, love does, especially when it is this kind of love.} even in the moment in #24, but at some point i think the theme after their kiss was "we might as well be strangers", with the "syaonara" and stuff.
And Kallen's principles were in conflict with her feelings, but she had to go with the principles in the end. {not literally "end", i do not mean finale, you get it}
incorrupts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-28, 15:35   Link #18103
Levy
differently sober
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Italy
Age: 31
well, thanks for your interesting thoughts, guys, you actually made me feel less depressed about the poem. Now blush you both! =P
In detail...

@yvj: I particulary liked how you put the argument of 'she sensed ZR even if she cannot know that by that time'.

@sky: lol you really renamed for nothing my dear XD I completely agree with the fact that the non-romantic impact Lelouch had on Kallen's life is equally big, but it is frequently overlooked - btw this was also my main reason for not being fond of this character development for her and of the pairing.
Levy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-28, 16:36   Link #18104
Frostfire
No Eyes
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Levy View Post
btw this was also my main reason for not being fond of this character development for her and of the pairing.
Wait, what is? Because this was pretty much all of her character development and her character. The evolution she underwent was pretty linear overall and following pretty normal steps.

I just find it funny that one could argue that she wasn't the first one to fall in love, but that's just for fun.
Frostfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-28, 17:05   Link #18105
Nogitsune
Shameless Fangirl
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
Actually, most of her character development outside her mother, was about Lelouch. They never did anything with her brother, so it pretty much was everything. Even her mother took a back seat to him.
Why is rather sad, in my opinion, but... oh well.
Lelouch > Naoto.
We probably all saw it coming.
Lelouch is just too awesome. xD

Quote:
My point was that Kallen's character development went linearly from the platonic-admiration to a natural falling-in-love context. The things he gave to her are pretty much everything. He gave her a reason to live, a reason to dream, and a reason to love. I see nothing wrong with focusing on the conclusion of their development with one another. Even if you stop halfway and focus on just what he gave to her, you still end up with the romantic or at least bonded characterization. He was(is) her world.
Then again, you can be someone's world even if they don't love you romantically.
And I see what Levy means.
Of course the connection there can not be denied - it's rather questionable if Kallen would have fallen for Lelouch that way if it hadn't been for Zero -, but Kallen's development in season one could very well stand on its own.
__________________
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia
Nogitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-28, 17:20   Link #18106
SonOfHeaven
Metal Gear!?
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa
Kallen's bond with Lelouch could have stayed based on loyalty, admiration etc. I would have been fine with that. When the staff developed Kallen's character romantically, I thought it was an understandable/logical way to develop her that way. They didn't need another love interest since there were already two possible candidates to handle that. I find their relationship to be truly beautiful to my eyes.

Lelouch did become her world as even noted even during turn 21. She needed an answer from Lelouch since she knew she couldn't move on otherwise.

Well, Lelouch and Kallen are quite similar to one another. Similar reasons for initial starting fighting, how important people in the past are and always putting others ahead of themselves. Not surprised they had such a strong bond without spending much time together.
__________________

Last edited by SonOfHeaven; 2009-01-28 at 19:09. Reason: grammar
SonOfHeaven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-28, 17:22   Link #18107
Nogitsune
Shameless Fangirl
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
Lelouch shaped her from nothing into something.
Uhm... I really wouldn't call the old Kallen "nothing", but I'm not going to argue over semantics.
Even if I would probably be somewhat of a Naoto fangirl if we had actually gotten to see him in R2. xD
But I'll at least mention that Kallen's ideals weren't worthless even without Lelouch. Just hopeless.
And that's not the same, because, as I see it, Naoto was important.
__________________
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia
Nogitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-28, 18:11   Link #18108
Frostfire
No Eyes
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
And that's not the same, because, as I see it, Naoto was important.
He was important enough for her to die for him, but she had no hope from him. It is somewhat the same. Like I said before, her hopeless ideals would have amounted to nothing without Lelouch. In this fictional case, her ideals were nothing without him.

This is not really life where hopeless ideals can amount to something, in this very fictional specific situation, her ideals would have amounted to nothing. They had no hope and no real form.
Frostfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-28, 22:13   Link #18109
linkinstreet
[Your] clan on Steam
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to linkinstreet Send a message via Yahoo to linkinstreet
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven View Post
Kallen's bond with Lelouch could have stayed based on loyalty, admiration etc. I would have been fine with that. When the staff developed Kallen's character romantically, I thought it was an understandable/logical way to develop her that way. They didn't need another love interest since there were already two possible candidates to handle that. I find their relationship to be truly beautiful to my eyes.

Lelouch did become her world as even noted even during turn 21. She needed an answer from Lelouch since she knew she couldn't move on otherwise.

Well, Lelouch and Kallen are quite similar to one another. Similar reasons for initial starting fighting, how important people in the past are and always putting others ahead of themselves. Not surprised they had such a strong bond without spending much time together.
honestly I had a feeling that they already wanted to push Kallen and Lelouch together, which is why she was the one that witnessed Lelouch vs Spinzaku's last fight in R1.

And besides, opposite does attract, and we do know that's always the case in anime

Another thing that I see in Kallen is that she won't really agree with ZR if she knew. Yes, she might be told that it's for the bigger picture. But Kallen is always a girl that has a simple view on thing. If the plan sounds too complicated, she wouldn't agree on it, as she will be convinced that there would be a better simpler plan.
__________________

Tsundere Asuka is a Turn On. No one can deny that faggots!
linkinstreet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-28, 22:57   Link #18110
roon
_(:q 」∠)_ _(ФωФ*」∠)_
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by yvj View Post
Here is my explanation on how Kallen is not OOC

[...]
She had so much faith in him that she was ready to believe in a plan that she couldn't imagine or had any proof of.
[...]
*comes out of lurkdom*

Very nice analysis! A lot of people think that Kallen was dumb as bricks toward the end of the series, but I always felt that her reaction was called for when she thought she and Lelouch were no longer on the same side. I never took it as a "WOE, HE DOESN'T LOVE ME" reaction, and honestly.. I thought it was obvious that it wasn't like that at all. When people were bashing her left and right for being 'butthurt heartbroken love interest,' I couldn't quite grasp it.

As for me, I did think Kallen would have stopped ZR from happening, but I guess I was wrong. It makes me wonder how it would've played out had she actually participated in it.
roon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-29, 12:24   Link #18111
Revolutionist
Puppet Master
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
Why did Kallen end up living in an apartment when her father had a nice mansion in the Britannian settlement? Did she hate her father that much that she didn't want anything to do with him? It seems odd that she is more attached to her mother than her dad when girls usually are the opposite...

Besides, w/o her there be no Japan since the BK's would have been defeated. She single-handedly killed hundreds of knights, one would think a hero like her would get at least a decent house or something from the gov't. Ougi sure as hell wasn't living in a humble 1 bedroom apartment, least he could do was give his old friend's sis a nice crib
__________________
I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark
Revolutionist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-29, 12:33   Link #18112
Frostfire
No Eyes
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Why did Kallen end up living in an apartment when her father had a nice mansion in the Britannian settlement? Did she hate her father that much that she didn't want anything to do with him? It seems odd that she is more attached to her mother than her dad when girls usually are the opposite...
It feels like they completely forgot/deleted her father's existance. From my understanding, the original R2 would have had him confronting Kallen while she was captured and turning her against Lelouch. There would have likely been a lot going on there and it would likely have explained what she felt about her father. We know from S1 that she did not "love" him as much as her mother, so it could be that in R2 he would have used her mother against her. Ultimately probably being killed or left behind by Kallen for her mother in a more logical progression. In our R2... he's just not there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Besides, w/o her there be no Japan since the BK's would have been defeated. She single-handedly killed hundreds of knights, one would think a hero like her would get at least a decent house or something from the gov't. Ougi sure as hell wasn't living in a humble 1 bedroom apartment, least he could do was give his old friend's sis a nice crib
It's possible she washed her hands clean of the Order and the war, refusing any reward for what she probably does not see as a real victory. Since she knows the truth, I doubt she thinks she won or that she deserves some reward for it.
Frostfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-29, 13:13   Link #18113
Levy
differently sober
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Italy
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Why did Kallen end up living in an apartment when her father had a nice mansion in the Britannian settlement? Did she hate her father that much that she didn't want anything to do with him? It seems odd that she is more attached to her mother than her dad when girls usually are the opposite...

Besides, w/o her there be no Japan since the BK's would have been defeated. She single-handedly killed hundreds of knights, one would think a hero like her would get at least a decent house or something from the gov't. Ougi sure as hell wasn't living in a humble 1 bedroom apartment, least he could do was give his old friend's sis a nice crib
I think that Kallen simply wanted to live in a 'normal' place among 'normal' people, and that the flat she has now is quite plain - yet more.. warm, emotionally speaking - like that to show the contrast with her old house, that she actually hated =)
Levy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-29, 18:11   Link #18114
SonOfHeaven
Metal Gear!?
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
It feels like they completely forgot/deleted her father's existance. From my understanding, the original R2 would have had him confronting Kallen while she was captured and turning her against Lelouch. There would have likely been a lot going on there and it would likely have explained what she felt about her father. We know from S1 that she did not "love" him as much as her mother, so it could be that in R2 he would have used her mother against her. Ultimately probably being killed or left behind by Kallen for her mother in a more logical progression. In our R2... he's just not there.
I remember when Kallen was captured, I was thinking they would have used her mother in order to get her to fight against the BK and Lelouch would get her back with the BK somehow. Then I totally forgot about the KOR. If Britannia had all the KOR's plus Kallen in the mix, that's too much fire power against Lelouch. Probably one of the reasons why they didn't do that.
__________________
SonOfHeaven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-29, 19:22   Link #18115
Xander
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
It feels like they completely forgot/deleted her father's existance. From my understanding, the original R2 would have had him confronting Kallen while she was captured and turning her against Lelouch. There would have likely been a lot going on there and it would likely have explained what she felt about her father. We know from S1 that she did not "love" him as much as her mother, so it could be that in R2 he would have used her mother against her. Ultimately probably being killed or left behind by Kallen for her mother in a more logical progression. In our R2... he's just not there.
I think a lot of people, including me, were expecting something like that to happen...but I don't know if it's fair to take the idea for granted just because it matches our expectations. For example, would Kallen have been captured in the "original R2" and if so, would her father be in a position to make an appearance?

Don't misunderstand, I would have liked to see something like that too,...but by now I don't think it was completely and absolutely necessary for her father to show up.

Season one didn't really focus on his existence, outside of being mentioned a couple of times, and it is questionable whether the story would have demanded his presence. He was already treated as an absent father, not someone who was on top of things. Maybe he would have assumed a larger role, maybe not. I imagine that Kallen's background could have received more attention, but this could still be done without making her father an important character who had to show up on-screen. It would have been nice though.

As for why Kallen isn't living in a mansion at the end of R2...well, it's not unheard of for young adults to want more independence. Kallen isn't pretending to be weak at school now...and in fact, she seems to be taking care of her mother too. I can't really imagine that Kallen's evil stepmother would want to have someone convicted for Refrain offenses around the main house, much less someone who she doesn't even like. What happened to her father then? I don't know, but then again we never knew much about him to begin with.
Xander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-29, 19:34   Link #18116
Frostfire
No Eyes
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
I think a lot of people, including me, were expecting something like that to happen...but I don't know if it's fair to take the idea for granted just because it matches our expectations. For example, would Kallen have been captured in the "original R2" and if so, would her father be in a position to make an appearance?

Don't misunderstand, I would have liked to see something like that too,...but by now I don't think it was completely and absolutely necessary for her father to show up.
I am pretty sure that the "change sides because of father" idea was a concept in the original script but was scrapped because it did not work with R2 (probably due to the entirely pointless KoR). If anything, what I could have seen happen, was Kallen becoming Lelouch's enemy(and aside from Suzaku only enemy) and forcing him to get her back. But with the introduction of the KoR and the changes in R2, she just ended up sitting around for 8 episodes.

Her father's role can be easily justified by whatever his work is, he could have been a KoR for example. If he appears in front of Kallen, instead of her sitting around for 8 episodes we could have had her have to fight against her will. It could have brought about more development for her, her father, and even Lelouch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
Season one didn't really focus on his existence, outside of being mentioned a couple of times, and it is questionable whether the story would have demanded his presence. He was already treated as an absent father, not someone who was on top of things. Maybe he would have assumed a larger role, maybe not. I imagine that Kallen's background could have received more attention, but this could still be done without making her father an important character who had to show up on-screen. It would have been nice though.
The story, really, did not require him, you are right. He was simply something that could have been used to some end. Few characters are really required in the story, Kallen's mother did not have to appear it could have been made clear in comments what she was fighting for. (A crude example.) He simply could have added another element to a time where Kallen did nothing but sit around and think about Lelouch. (Could have given a little more reason to the Nunally/Kallen talks, and her conflict with everything. Development under duress would have been interesting to see for her character.)
Frostfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-29, 20:10   Link #18117
Xander
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
I am pretty sure that the "change sides because of father" idea was a concept in the original script but was scrapped because it did not work with R2 (probably due to the entirely pointless KoR). If anything, what I could have seen happen, was Kallen becoming Lelouch's enemy(and aside from Suzaku only enemy) and forcing him to get her back. But with the introduction of the KoR and the changes in R2, she just ended up sitting around for 8 episodes.
That's news to me, but I'll take your word for it. That sounds interesting and would have given her father a good reason to come up again during the show...at the very least it would give Kallen more inner conflict. Even if she switched sides for her father's sake, I don't think she would be happy about it. On the other hand, since the series was going to have a similar ending anyways, perhaps Kallen would have still fought against Lelouch during "Zero Requiem"? She would then have to regret everything after Lelouch died. In either case, I see your point.

Quote:
The story, really, did not require him, you are right. He was simply something that could have been used to some end. Few characters are really required in the story, Kallen's mother did not have to appear it could have been made clear in comments what she was fighting for. (A crude example.) He simply could have added another element to a time where Kallen did nothing but sit around and think about Lelouch. (Could have given a little more reason to the Nunally/Kallen talks, and her conflict with everything. Development under duress would have been interesting to see for her character.)
I definitely agree though, in the sense that would have given more depth to Kallen and those conversations between her and Nunnally could have used more relevance than what they had...which was barely any, if at all. Kallen's imprisonment felt a little too long and unproductive as it actually happened. You can justify it from Lelouch's point of view, since he lost someone who was already fairly close to him and things only got worse from that point forward, but from her side...not much. Which is why many of us expected to have her father come up, even if she didn't have to meet him or anything like that.
Xander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-29, 20:40   Link #18118
Frostfire
No Eyes
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
That's news to me, but I'll take your word for it. That sounds interesting and would have given her father a good reason to come up again during the show...at the very least it would give Kallen more inner conflict. Even if she switched sides for her father's sake, I don't think she would be happy about it. On the other hand, since the series was going to have a similar ending anyways, perhaps Kallen would have still fought against Lelouch during "Zero Requiem"? She would then have to regret everything after Lelouch died. In either case, I see your point.
It would have, if you ask me, made it far more clear on Kallen's own emotions and feelings towards Lelouch. Instead we were left extrapolating and having it "cleared" up by the staff to what they were actually meaning for her to feel/uncover. It would have given us development on three fronts, whereas her imprisonment gave us development on... Lelouch losing someone. Not much.

As for ZR, I doubt it would have changed her role. It would, probably have made certain "romancy" things from Lelouch's end possibly clearer or at least her conclusion a bit more clear/conclusive... or, even more likely, it would have given us a true bittersweet wartime-drama ending.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
I definitely agree though, in the sense that would have given more depth to Kallen and those conversations between her and Nunnally could have used more relevance than what they had...which was barely any, if at all. Kallen's imprisonment felt a little too long and unproductive as it actually happened. You can justify it from Lelouch's point of view, since he lost someone who was already fairly close to him and things only got worse from that point forward, but from her side...not much. Which is why many of us expected to have her father come up, even if she didn't have to meet him or anything like that.
I think we agree here.
Frostfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-30, 19:46   Link #18119
incorrupts
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greece
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to incorrupts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
I am pretty sure that the "change sides because of father" idea was a concept in the original script but was scrapped because it did not work with R2 (probably due to the entirely pointless KoR). If anything, what I could have seen happen, was Kallen becoming Lelouch's enemy(and aside from Suzaku only enemy) and forcing him to get her back. But with the introduction of the KoR and the changes in R2, she just ended up sitting around for 8 episodes.
I do not think that Kallen's character development up until that point would "allow" her to change sides. She was ready to die for Zero {as she said on R2 episode #2 and well frequently it was obvious} and considering, the route they took with her in the later episodes before her capture, it seems unlikely that Kallen would switch sides.
I could only see this, if they blackmailed her with her mother or something on this account and still, really difficult.

Even if that was on the original script, i find it really hard to buy it.
S1 #13, pretty much established, that Kallen would go forward with Zero no matter what. I don't think how a papa-storyline would fit in. {not dismissing any info/not, just if that ever happened, i know i would be "so OOC for her".}
incorrupts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-30, 20:17   Link #18120
Bonzo
I change anime endings.
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Italy
Age: 36
Send a message via MSN to Bonzo
If you add together all the not told stories etc...you can write a book.

However, tomorrow I'll show something of new about Kallen, a good work in my opinion.
Bonzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.