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Old 2009-02-27, 08:15   Link #18281
dec4rhapsody
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ジーサス!

The poem is set after the ending/realizations/and other crap, what Kallen says are afterthoughts...
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Old 2009-02-27, 08:24   Link #18282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody View Post
ジーサス!

That was so insightful, i think i need to elaborate 97898 pages. {not}

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Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody View Post
The poem is set after the ending/realizations/and other crap, what Kallen says are afterthoughts...
No one denied this.
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Old 2009-02-27, 08:29   Link #18283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post



That was so insightful, i think i need to elaborate 97898 pages. {not}



No one denied this.
I'm sorry. One of my brain partitions is just formated...
I was trying to say that what Kallen says in the poem doesn't 100% apply to what she could have done given that she was in a different mindset during Turn 22.
But still, this is more or less my "意淫"/yi4 yin2/mousou/interpretation/imagination/fantasy...
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Old 2009-02-27, 08:31   Link #18284
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What does it change if those are afterthoughts...?
Still the ZR took all the mass murder it took and I can't see Kallen accepting all of that basing this only on the feeling of love (both in positive and negative sense) that's it. I can't make this fit in the picture completely, I'm still working on that.

By the time she asked that questions directly, yes, the mixture of feelings was pretty much explosive and surely there's a lot of subtext in such a simple question. But it summed up well everything, the question itself "what am I to you?"

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ジーサス!
....wow. enlightening concept.
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Old 2009-02-27, 08:31   Link #18285
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I continue to say the characterization in R2 was a total chaos made in a hurry without a logic.
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Old 2009-02-27, 08:32   Link #18286
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levy View Post
....wow. enlightening concept.
which i am sure is even more complex to people who actually understand what the heck it means

@bonzo
and it was completely derailed after ep 21 for much of the cast
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Old 2009-02-27, 08:34   Link #18287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody View Post
I'm sorry. One of my brain partitions is just formated...
I was trying to say that what Kallen says in the poem doesn't 100% apply to what she could have done given that she was in a different mindset during Turn 22.
Well i do go a lot of times "whut, whut?" when it comes to Kallen discussions but if i start using greek words in the middle of a discussion, then sure. We are all gonna understand each other.

Anyway, you got a semi-point there. It is weird to explain this. Sometimes i feel that Kallen "can't win" in the end. She fights, then she is just a useless-fighter-chara.
She falls in love, then noess, she is kinda a whorish person.


Seriously.
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Old 2009-02-27, 08:41   Link #18288
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By ep 21? more before for me.

I believe 18-19.

19th episode was the "idiocy festival".
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Old 2009-02-27, 08:44   Link #18289
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We started again with the circus-R2? You do know, that if some things did not make much sense, or if R2 was generally a chaos, this downgrades the relationships as well.
Hell, a CCxL fan could say that Kalulu was just caught in the chaos that R2 was. Or that Kallen was never meant to play a bigger role, but "woah, R2-circus code."
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Old 2009-02-27, 08:46   Link #18290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
Well i do go a lot of times "whut, whut?" when it comes to Kallen discussions but if i start using greek words in the middle of a discussion, then sure. We are all gonna understand each other.

Anyway, you got a semi-point there. It is weird to explain this. Sometimes i feel that Kallen "can't win" in the end. She fights, then she is just a useless-fighter-chara.
She falls in love, then noess, she is kinda a whorish person.


Seriously.
It seems that I only type trivia/nonsensical stuff recently...whether it's English or Japenese or Tocharian (j/k).

I don't know how to explain this, I think that we are sorta overdoing the analysis of the poem and thus overrating its importance.
It is, a poem of afterthoughts after all, and therefore mixed with different signals such as "I would have done this and that" and even "I should have done that".
I had a discussion with FF and kinda feel that the poem is, to some extent, tricky because it's mingled with truth and lies and assumptions and ifs.

As for the other controversial part of the poem. *cough*Aishiteru*cough*
Had it been as clear-cut as Nunnally's there wouldn't be so much fuss over it.


And I am very curious if the new *smuggled* *truthful* interpretation/translation of the poem fits what I got from the original text with my limited Japanese.


@Levy
I remember I told you to ignore my non-english parts, because they are more or less just expressions of unspeakable emotions~
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Old 2009-02-27, 08:48   Link #18291
Levy
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Yep. too bad is a english language board. *grin*

Dai, blade, rispondimi una cosa a caso qualunque in ebraico e vediamo quanto riusciamo a contribuire alla discussione.

No really guys, the Babel Fish'd have been an awesome pet and kick a rare amount of ass, but please, for the tenth time or more, try to keep in in a language understandable to everybody.

EDIT:
@sky: now, com'on, don't make it sound like this was a bashing discussion, because it's not. We continue to use the term 'whore/whoring' because Nobodyman9 did it in his post, but it was mostly of a humurous post. The girl had conflicting feelings and difficult choices ahead of her, but that's due to the complexity of her 'placing' inside the geass plot, and I think pretty much every character has been criticized at some point with people putting very small effort in understanding their reason. Karen is in any way the one that has been given the hardest time by fandom.

@dec: Mh, I can understand the 'change of mood' you imply in the 'afterthoughts' now. Tricky poem indeed...

EDIT x2 : okay, R2 wasn't the festival of coherence and rushed in the ending, but let's try not to exagerate.. derailed is way too much.
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Old 2009-02-27, 08:53   Link #18292
bladeofdarkness
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after ep 21 half the cast develop full on character derailment
lelouch turns into a well intentioned monster

suzaku stops giving a shit about any morals he used to have (and euphie with them it seems)

C.C stops using lelouch for her own goals of ending her life, only to help him end HIS

nunnaly (NUNNALY!!!) starts nuking people (FTW)

xing-ke forgets that shnizel is too much of a threat to join forces with (a fact he accused the eunichs of forgeting) and joins forces with him
then from some odd reason forbids him from using the ONLY WEAPON HE BRINGS TO THE TABLE
and then hands him control of the army

shnizel goes from decent diplomatic magnificent basterd anti-villain to being a knock off of dilando from GSD (and his IQ drops about 50 points, which is often what happens when a magnificent basterd type gets a dooms day weapon)

cornellia gets shot by shnizel after hearing that he plans to kill millons, and then later comments that he would make a great king

gino hooks up with the OOBK, the how and why and "how the hell did he transport the broken grounded tristan from britannia to japan when he is lelouch's enemy" is never really explained (and why would he even turn to the OOBK, aside from kallen he doesnt know anyone there, and she is NOT his friend)

and thats just off the top of my head

@Levy
תודה רבה על המסר הנחמד הזה שלך
אני מסכים לגמרי
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Old 2009-02-27, 08:55   Link #18293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levy View Post
Yep. too bad is a english language board. *grin*

Dai, blade, rispondimi una cosa a caso qualunque in ebraico e vediamo quanto riusciamo a contribuire alla discussione.

No really guys, the Babel Fish'd have been an awesome pet and kick a rare amount of ass, but please, for the tenth time or more, try to keep in in a language understandable to everybody.

Mh, I can understand the 'change of mood' you imply in the 'afterthoughts' now.

EDIT:
@sky: now, com'on, don't make it sound like this was a bashing discussion, because it's not. We continue to use the term 'whore/whoring' because Nobodyman9 did it in his post, but it was mostly of a humurous post. The girl had conflicting feelings and difficult choices ahead of her, but that's due to the complexity of her 'placing' inside the geass plot, and I think pretty much every character has been criticized at some point with people putting very small effort in understanding their reason. Karen is in any way the one that has been given the hardest time by fandom.

Did i make it sound like a bashing discussion? It was more of a general "ah-ah, here it goes again."
I just can see, that for everyone else is like "that is ok" but for Kallen, most of the people just like to have double standards.

If i say, that Shirley loved Lelouch more than her father, because she forgave Lelouch, will this make sense? Not really. "Romantic Love" in fiction, is probably the most powerful feeling. It does not have to have to make sense.
Same applies to Kallen.

@dec:: Tricky? I do not think so. The poems are clear, in the message they want to deliver.

eta: Levy didn't you know? it is NOT derailed, only when it comes to pairings. Because, srs bzness.
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Old 2009-02-27, 09:03   Link #18294
dec4rhapsody
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LOL, 大家都哪儿凉快哪儿呆着去吧<-Very "amiable" way to say "take a walk" in Beijing dialect.

@sky
Well, life sucks for those who don't have green-long-hair to back up their LI-existence in CG universe.

The poem is unspeakably tricky...
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Old 2009-02-27, 09:09   Link #18295
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Okay, I just wanted to make it clear that none was accusing her just for the sake of accusing her...
I can answer only for myself, and I don't think I held double standards.
Now Karen's situation in ep.22 is unparalleled in the cast: "all I've loved and fought for and the ideals the person I thought I loved promoted" on one side and the very same person on the other.
It's a very conflictuous situation.

If Kaguya would have had a development with Lelouch similar to those of Shirley and Kallen, she might have made a similar case, but Kaguya, although she held devotion and still faith in her Zero-sama, hardly know him for real....

Shirley's case maybe better parraleles what Kallen did in ep.2: she forgave Lelouch for having used the BK for his revenge and abandoned them during the black rebellion and sdeveral other things because she still wanted to believe in him...
One thing is to forgive something you list as wrong and that hurted you because of love, another thing is to actively take part in something that goes against your principles ins such a global scale because of love. Surely, people do it... people do far crazier things for love.
I'm just not sold on the idea completely.
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Old 2009-02-27, 09:24   Link #18296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody View Post

@sky
Well, life sucks for those who don't have green-long-hair to back up their LI-existence in CG universe.

The poem is unspeakably tricky...

What does C.C have to do in here?

Tricky's universal definition, is for someone/something to be marked with the skill of deception. I do not think that was the case with Kallen's poem. Unless, you try to make it sound like "oh mi god, this is deceptive and only smart people will get it." // the other definition, is more of "kinda difficult to follow something."

I am willing to give her poem, the definition of semi-tricky, as in complicated a bit, compared to others i suppose.



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Okay, I just wanted to make it clear that none was accusing her just for the sake of accusing her...
I can answer only for myself, and I don't think I held double standards.
Now Karen's situation in ep.22 is unparalleled in the cast: "all I've loved and fought for and the ideals the person I thought I loved promoted" on one side and the very same person on the other.
It's a very conflictuous situation.

If Kaguya would have had a development with Lelouch similar to those of Shirley and Kallen, she might have made a similar case, but Kaguya, although she held devotion and still faith in her Zero-sama, hardly know him for real....

Shirley's case maybe better parraleles what Kallen did in ep.2: she forgave Lelouch for having used the BK for his revenge and abandoned them during the black rebellion and sdeveral other things because she still wanted to believe in him...
One thing is to forgive something you list as wrong and that hurted you because of love, another thing is to actively take part in something that goes against your principles ins such a global scale because of love. Surely, people do it... people do far crazier things for love.
I'm just not sold on the idea completely.
Lelouch started the whole BK-deal, for finding out about his crazy-mama assassination and to create a "peaceful" world for Nunally. He at times, helped genuinely the BK, but the other two "themes" for his fight, often came to conflict with the Bk-liberate-this-hur-hur.

Kallen believed in Zero, for all the reasons she stated on Turn #22. She pretty much sums up her thoughts there.
Result-wise, it was not something that went against her principles. Maybe the real-methods in the beginning, they were. But as time progresses, Lelouch's "lie" kinda became "true" when concerning the BK order.
One thing, that Kallen pointed out in #7 as well.
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Old 2009-02-27, 09:26   Link #18297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levy View Post

If Kaguya would have had a development with Lelouch similar to those of Shirley and Kallen, she might have made a similar case, but Kaguya, although she held devotion and still faith in her Zero-sama, hardly know him for real....
And this Explain the drama made by me, when Kallen reply very badly to Kaguya about feelings for Zero/Lelouch.
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Old 2009-02-27, 09:46   Link #18298
Levy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
Kallen believed in Zero, for all the reasons she stated on Turn #22. She pretty much sums up her thoughts there.
Result-wise, it was not something that went against her principles.
That was true untill Lelouch wear his 'Emperor' mask. The tyranny he established, and what he did immediatly after their encounter in Turn22 is something that conflicts openly with what Karen believes in. Is that the part I can't see her approving - this, along with Lelouch letting himself be killed.

anyway, I think that the stress Dec put it the 'afterthoughts' is a better key to the poem than anything, and a poem is still only a poem.. in the series, Karen is caught in her contraddiction fully as she fight Emperor Lelouch still keeping her faith hin Zero and her love for him, and she was proven right in the end, so nothing of this was in vain.

Quote:
Maybe the real-methods in the beginning, they were. But as time progresses, Lelouch's "lie" kinda became "true" when concerning the BK order.
One thing, that Kallen pointed out in #7 as well.
This, I don't know... I'm more of the opinion that it took the defeat of Tokyo second battle- with the loss of Nunnaly, the betrayal and even MummyMarianneis*lobelia*insane for Lelouch to fully understand what he should have done or not done to truly fit in the role he has took as Zero. Before he was sometimes fooling himself too a bit about his real goals...

Anyway, 'lies' becoming 'truths' is one of the main themes of Lelouch's character - maybe the most fascinating =) - and of the whole series and I think it found a perfect climax in the ZR.
You know, the non-serious part of the ending? that one.. =P
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Old 2009-02-27, 09:50   Link #18299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levy View Post
That was true untill Lelouch wear his 'Emperor' mask. The tyranny he established, and what he did immediatly after their encounter in Turn22 is something that conflicts openly with what Karen believes in. Is that the part I can't see her approving - this, along with Lelouch letting himself be killed.
Their encounter in #22, was before Lelouch committed the "atrocities" he had in mind in order for the ZR to succeed.
After that, then yes Kallen chose to oppose him even if she loved him. I do not get which part you do not get.
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Old 2009-02-27, 09:58   Link #18300
bladeofdarkness
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the reason she confronted him rather then just "join" him (as in come out and say, i want in) in ep 22 was becouse even before he started acting like a prick he was already way off his usual self
the events of 19 were already enough to have her in tears over her confusion
but then lelouch becomes emperor of britannia
joins forces with suzaku...

no wonder she had to confront him about his intentions first
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