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Old 2009-05-17, 11:30   Link #19281
Frostfire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
this is not an "off the wall" archtype
this is how the director discribed kallen's character
if she was your lover, she'd never betray you, but if you betrayed her, she'd never forgive you
i'm saying that given all evidence presented within the show
lelouch IS the kind who WILL betray her (manipulation is a form of betrayal)
not possibly, not probaly, WILL betray
its the core basis of his character
its the core of his geass ability
and its the core of his final master plan (deceving the entire world)
there were no "who would make the best husbend" thing
but if there were im pretty sure lelouch wouldnt get ONE start when it comes to devotion becouse there he uses EVERYONE at one point or another
I didn't say Kallen's character was off the wall, I said the situations the characters were placed in were off the wall. You can't apply the situations where they had their backs to the wall, with guns in front of them and being forced to act, to "what would it have been like".

Lelouch was the kind to betray her, but when everything came down to it in ZR. He didn't betray her. He kept her on the right side and with what Lelouch had always fought for. Which is the point, he trickery may be the heart of his character, but like Kallen said, he treated her differently. Case in point, he wouldn't betray her as easily as you seem to imply, if at all.

Like I said, the way you frame your argument, you can apply the exact same to Euphemia and Suzaku's relationship and say that she would have been better off (and alive) had she not fallen for Suzaku.
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Old 2009-05-17, 11:30   Link #19282
demon_god04
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@blade

Betray her? If Lelouch really did betray her, then she would not be thinking fondly of him in the epilogue. Deceiving is not the same as betraying. You have to take into account of why Lelouch deceived her and the circumstances. If he really was the power mongering emperor he made himself look then yes that would be betraying her. But while she may have deceived everyone, Lelouch fulfilled Kallen's wish and proved that the results of his actions did not betray her.
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Old 2009-05-17, 11:31   Link #19283
Bonzo
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@bladeofdarkness:

I sent you a PM about a suggestion for Kallen/Lelouch dialogue.
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Old 2009-05-17, 11:32   Link #19284
Lolipopo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and would you consider this a GOOD THING for kallen ?

@Bonzo
what messege ?
That is a normal thing at least.
If those girls enjoy falling for the good guy, that's because if they can hurt them badly, they can as well make them happy like no one else. (Kallen was hurted because of him but eventually he gave her more happiness than anyone, ironically, thanks to those bad treatments.)

Ahhh, love~
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Old 2009-05-17, 11:32   Link #19285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
Didn't you know ?
Girls are maso.

So yeah, Lelouch was just the perfect guy for Kallen ;

Once they stop believing in prince charming, girls have a bad tendancie to fall for bad guys who can't help but hurt her willingly or not/cheat on her/mock her. (Revenge on their pink dreamd of little girl ? Who knows )And while they are crying on that they can't help but stay with the bad guy.
And if they stay with them that's because they enjoy that.

Woah, you just gave me one more argument when it comes to Kallen/Lelouch. Congrats !
Word on that. 8D

And anyway, we are talking about Lelouch as the hurt-Lelouch towards Kallen. If he really intended to hurt her, then that would be a valid argument.
Since, we are talking about a what-if, functional {?} relationship between those two, without lies and circumstances kicking them in the butt, i am pretty sure, it would have worked nicely.
Remember, Lelouch, could not ultimately manipulate her with words {one of Kallen's rhetorical {?} questions, as in why she did not manipulate her <--yeah, why, Kallen, why? lol} when he was supposed to. Kind of the whole point.
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Old 2009-05-17, 11:33   Link #19286
bladeofdarkness
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what lelouch betrayed during ZERO-R was her TRUST
but in doing so he kept her safe and gave her a future so i suppose that one could be seen as less of a betrayal and more of "i want my beloved to be happy"

and euphie's death didnt come becouse she was with suzaku
it was beocuse she was trying to fullful what SHE wanted to achive
she and suzaku got together becouse they were both of the same mindframe
even if she didnt do the SAZ as is, she would still be a threat to lelouch becouse she represents an ulternative to his way
she might have ended up just the same anyway

not that this is on topic mind you

in the end lelouch DIDNT betray kallen in the broadest sense of the word
but he did betray her temporeraly (he made her believe that he had either BECAME a monster, or that he had ALWAYS BEEN one)
can you how much pain that must have caused her
she did after all bare a great deal of resposibility for allowing him to become so strong
she protected him, supported him, and kept his secret from the others OOBK' members
can you imagine what must have been going through her mind during the two months between the damocles battle and his death
for all she knew she was to blame for allowing the world to come under the heel of the worst tyrent in human history just beocuse she wanted to believe in him instead of seeing what was right infront of her (when the OOBK saw the same thing she learned about in season 1 final, they tried to kill him)

@Bonzo, didnt get any PM
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Old 2009-05-17, 11:35   Link #19287
Bonzo
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For the rest, the wait time before to see Kallen and her marriage is day after day more few.

However, without to kill Euphemia, the ideas to keep continue the war were.....zero.

Then it was to happen in some way.
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Old 2009-05-17, 11:39   Link #19288
incorrupts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
what lelouch betrayed during ZERO-R was her TRUST
but in doing so he kept her safe and gave her a future so i suppose that one could be seen as less of a betrayal and more of "i want my beloved to be happy"
Theme of love. Pretty much the whole point x 2. 8D
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Old 2009-05-17, 11:41   Link #19289
Bonzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
@Bonzo, didnt get any PM
Damn, I'll try again, try to control.
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Old 2009-05-17, 12:03   Link #19290
Kid Ying
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
Ahh well done, well done...maybe I shall continue to make of this night...a night to remember...?
Or maybe I should just...walk away

(Ahahahahahaha we suck Kid, really XD)
It's hard to believe that i couldn't see that we really suck.

And i can't argue with that argument about girls being maso, hehe. But i don't know... Lelouch was not an asshole all the times, so i don't think if they did get to a relationship or something he would continue to be an asshole... Unless Kallen wanted to.
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Old 2009-05-17, 12:08   Link #19291
bladeofdarkness
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its not about him being an ass-hole all the time
but it is about him hurting her to the point of tears over and over again during the course of the show
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Old 2009-05-17, 12:12   Link #19292
Bonzo
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@bladeofdarkness:

Reply received and I sent you a possible solution.
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Old 2009-05-17, 12:19   Link #19293
Kid Ying
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Ah, but that's totally different. At the first season, okay, he did some nasty stuff, but Lelouch hardly cared about her. She was just a girl that happens to being in the same school.

At the season 2, when he started to show his emotions towards her, mostly of the bad stuff was just to protect her. Kallen is a pawn? Well, she's better be, otherwise she's dead. Kallen is not important to him? Hell yeah, Kallen can't be important and go with him, otherwise she's pretty much fucked for the rest of her life.

Even the turn 7 was not that bad, Lelouch was just in a bad hair day, hehe. So i don't think Lelouch was that bad of a guy with her after he discovered his emotions towards Kallen. It's just Lelouch was a natural douche that think he got the best solution for everyone in the world, but he did all that to TRULY protect her, it's not like he was hiding he did go out with some friends to drink or something like that, it's her life after all. I'm certain that Lelouch did suffer a lot more than Kallen for doing all of this.
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Old 2009-05-17, 12:25   Link #19294
bladeofdarkness
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no one is desputing that kallen was very importent to him (or probably even love her)
and no one questions that much of what he did (mostly in the final arcs) was done specificlly to protect her
but there's something to be said about the fact that he was perfectlly willing to to walk all over her heart to do it
not just her, sheirly and nunnaly too
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Old 2009-05-17, 12:36   Link #19295
Kid Ying
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Yeah, but it was an unnatural case and Lelouch sure as hell was not happy to do this to Kallen and Nunnally, but it was necessary. If he told Kallen before everything, she would go with him for certain, and if he told her or Nunnaly after everything, they sure as hell would not let him kill himself. He just don't have a way out of this being nice with them. So i don't think he's the guy who WILL betray anyone in a relationship. He could(specially if it was a life or death situation, which in the new world hardly were going to happen), but i just don't think he would. Besides, we never saw Lelouch with a girl to know how he would handle a relationship, hehe. I think Lelouch would be pretty tamed towards a girl, specially Kallen, hehe.
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Old 2009-05-17, 12:41   Link #19296
bladeofdarkness
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your right about that
we never saw him in a relationship
might have something to do with the fact that he killed the first girl he ever loved erased the memory of another and pushed the last one away
then again it might be too simple
he didnt JUST do that
1)the turned the first girl he ever loved into a mass murderer and THEN killed her
2)he erased the memory of the second girl after he killed her father (and later on, inadvertely got her killed by his guard dog)
3)and he first push the last girl away AND THEN he became everything she ever opposed, conquered her homeland, threw her in prison for two months and forced to be present to watch him die

clearly he is in no way the kind to hurt the girls he loves
he doesnt MEAN to hurt them
he just does
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Old 2009-05-17, 15:45   Link #19297
morbosfist
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Those are all extraordinary circumstances, though, which he is not likely to repeat in peacetime when he's not leading an army to conquer another empire.
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Old 2009-05-17, 19:04   Link #19298
Bonzo
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The first new comic, Lelouch awake from the coma, but...he will have some surprises.

The real starring is Nunnally, but there's a little clarification about Kallen "mad-love".

http://sabrinaonline.altervista.org/...n25.12aeng.jpg
http://sabrinaonline.altervista.org/...n25.12beng.jpg
http://sabrinaonline.altervista.org/...n25.12ceng.jpg
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Old 2009-05-17, 21:19   Link #19299
Nobodyman9
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Whoa, you guys certainly do love to talk don't you? Well, most of this is tl;dr, but I wanted to say a few things.

About whether Lelouch is really best for Kallen even if she loves him. This reminds me of an idea that was brought up in the recent season finale of Lost. Just because two people are in love doesn't necessarily mean that they're meant to be together. Sad but true, and this idea has been explored in other shows/movies (Princess Mononoke) Of course, ZR literally put the final nail in that coffin anyway, so I guess we'll never know for sure if it would've worked out between them. Of course a lot of it is circumstantial and again we can argue about how it could be different during peace time (same could be said for Shirley)

Oh, and blade, your assessment of the dub. LOL, I guess Bandai is Anti-Kalulu

And great work as always Bonzo.
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Old 2009-05-18, 04:07   Link #19300
Kid Ying
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Those are all extraordinary circumstances, though, which he is not likely to repeat in peacetime when he's not leading an army to conquer another empire.
Yeah, that's what i think. It's not like everything is Lelouch's fault. He was not living in the same world as Shirley or Euphemia, he was living in a path that was just bringing destruction to him and to his beloved ones. Not that Lelouch is innocent or something like that, but cases like that were just products of the sordid world he was living. The geass is the catalyst of this misfortune, after all.

In the new world, where the geass don't have a reason to be used or even to exist, i don't think anything like this would happen.

And there's a reason for Lelouch wanting for Kallen to be present at his assassination... I just never thought about it. Give me a few seconds, hehe.
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