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Old 2008-09-18, 14:28   Link #2741
Kusaja
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Originally Posted by whiter View Post
If we assume that she's to loose her code, she would no longer posses immortality and hence, she would no longer pursue death, the "desire" for solitude in this case is caused by the immortality, not by her nature, atleast I see it so. In this case the "problem" would dissappear.
I think I would agree here, for the most part. In C.C.'s case, I think it's less about her troubled past, on a conscious level at least, and more about her prolonged present...because her immortality is what makes C.C. increasingly aloof from the world, her own memories and past life.

In other different shows, immortals still have a firm grasp of reality, self and where they came from, as well as either a goal or a way to derive enjoyment from life, so they can manage...but here C.C. seemed to be lacking that, and thus you could argue her insecurities and the fleeting nature of all life surrounding her are what made living meaningless to her and even led to self-perpetuating that cycle. I wouldn't say she "desires" solitude willingly, but that's how it ends up looking like.

Think about it this way: if all you have is an eternal "today", no real future and a fading past...time erases all things, and dying may begin to look like a way to escape, but if immortality is no longer a concern life gains its proper value back.
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Old 2008-09-18, 15:11   Link #2742
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Think about it this way: if all you have is an eternal "today", no real future and a fading past...time erases all things, and dying may begin to look like a way to escape, but if immortality is no longer a concern life gains its proper value back.
That does not make sense when put in context with the Nun, or maybe to me it does not. Due to their mutual desires we can likely assume that they suffered similar fates, C.C. and the Nun (as I doubt the Nun's desire had always been to die). There has to have been a reason for her to seek her death if the code's transfer would simply free her from immortality. In fact, any immortal seeking freedom through the death from the code, would raise flags to this idea. If the value of life is to simply return once the code is gone, then none would have to seek death, they'd have to seek losing the code and then their lives would return to normal. Putting this into context that they sought death, not just the loss of the code, something is clearly missing from the equation to explain why they sought death and not simply code loss. V.V.'s strange talk before dying may hold the answer to this.
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Old 2008-09-18, 15:20   Link #2743
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Originally Posted by Tael View Post
That does not make sense when put in context with the Nun, or maybe to me it does not. Due to their mutual desires we can likely assume that they suffered similar fates, C.C. and the Nun (as I doubt the Nun's desire had always been to die). There has to have been a reason for her to seek her death if the code's transfer would simply free her from immortality. In fact, any immortal seeking freedom through the death from the code, would raise flags to this idea. If the value of life is to simply return once the code is gone, then none would have to seek death, they'd have to seek losing the code and then their lives would return to normal. Putting this into context that they sought death, not just the loss of the code, something is clearly missing from the equation to explain why they sought death and not simply code loss. V.V.'s strange talk before dying may hold the answer to this.
C.C was seeking for death, because she has been living in solitude and torture for centuries, we don't know which the case is with the nun. But assuming that she also has experienced the solitude and that they both have given up on living. Removing the code but still having the memories would result for them to seek for death, as the time and harsh experiences of solitude has corrupted their mind. And now that (maybe) she gets salvation from Lelouch she would surely find it better to keep living than dying. The case is that she's/they'r assuming that even if the code has been removed, they continue to live in solitude as the time has corrupted their mind before someone shows their the value of living once again as they've totally forgotten it, to put it frankly.
But then again, we can't invade into their head.
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Old 2008-09-18, 15:27   Link #2744
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C.C was seeking for death, because she has been living in solitude and torture for centuries, we don't know which the case is with the nun. But assuming that she also has experienced the solitude and that they both have given up on living. Removing the code but still having the memories would result for them to seek for death, as the time and harsh experiences of solitude has corrupted their mind.
That feels like a stretch, the Nun's portrayal was not of someone being haunted by the past, it was more of someone just trying to die. When I watched Season 2 Episode 15 I was given the impression that she was exactly like C.C. was in the Mao incident, with slightly differing results. I mean, it is nearly an identical scenario with orphaned child all alone being found by a code carrier and given Geass. Also, if the haunting past is so unbearable then I doubt the Nun could have remained as sane and composed as she had. If anything, as with C.C., she had forgotten everything over her existence through the centuries. As such I cannot see her simply being haunted by the past being a reason, especially in lieu that C.C. would have far more haunting her than the Nun given the aforementioned Mao incident.
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Old 2008-09-18, 15:36   Link #2745
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Originally Posted by Tael View Post
That feels like a stretch, the Nun's portrayal was not of someone being haunted by the past, it was more of someone just trying to die. When I watched Season 2 Episode 15 I was given the impression that she was exactly like C.C. was in the Mao incident, with slightly differing results. I mean, it is nearly an identical scenario with orphaned child all alone being found by a code carrier and given Geass. Also, if the haunting past is so unbearable then I doubt the Nun could have remained as sane and composed as she had. If anything, as with C.C., she had forgotten everything over her existence through the centuries. As such I cannot see her simply being haunted by the past being a reason, especially in lieu that C.C. would have far more haunting her than the Nun given the aforementioned Mao incident.
Haunted by the past they can remember which is full of depression and solitude, even if they've gotten used to it at some point, they've gave up on living and they can't even remember the value of life anymore.
But I guess we just view the things in different light
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Old 2008-09-18, 15:42   Link #2746
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Haunted by the past they can remember which is full of depression and solitude, even if they've gotten used to it at some point, they've gave up on living and they can't even remember the value of life anymore.
But I guess we just view the things in different light
I'm certain we do view this in a different light, but your point does not do much towards the point I was making, in that if the code being lost returned the meaning of life to the carriers, then they'd have had no reason to simply die. It makes no sense for their contract to be about dying, but from what we know of C.C., that is seemingly what her contract has always been. Why don't they always have a contract on the grounds of: "I want you to take my code and build me a nice house in Australia." If once the code is gone, and their lives return to 'normal' there is no reason to seek death, even if they had been desensitized by immortality, the moment that is gone, they should also regain death's cold grasp around their lives giving them reason to live for real before their time runs out. Once the timer to death is back, they have no reason to kill themselves or simply die.
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Old 2008-09-18, 15:48   Link #2747
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Originally Posted by Tael View Post
I'm certain we do view this in a different light, but your point does not do much towards the point I was making, in that if the code being lost returned the meaning of life to the carriers, then they'd have had no reason to simply die. It makes no sense for their contract to be about dying, but from what we know of C.C., that is seemingly what her contract has always been. Why don't they always have a contract on the grounds of: "I want you to take my code and build me a nice house in Australia." If once the code is gone, and their lives return to 'normal' there is no reason to seek death, even if they had been desensitized by immortality, the moment that is gone, they should also regain death's cold grasp around their lives giving them reason to live for real before their time runs out. Once the timer to death is back, they have no reason to kill themselves or simply die.
Quoting myself:
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The case is that she's/they'r assuming that even if the code has been removed, they continue to live in solitude as the time has corrupted their mind before someone shows their the value of living once again as they've totally forgotten it, to put it frankly.
That's how I see the case, nothing more to add.

They assume that their life won't change at all after the immortality has been taken away, as they don't remember how living was before immortality.
Hence they rather die than continue the strugling.
- They won't forget the recent centuries of living in solitude, and they forecast that it'll be the same even if the code has been taken hence they rather die. (Their minds have been corrupted by immortality in a sense)
Some people value the death as an escape from torture(solitude in this case) far more than the life itself.
I rest my case
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Old 2008-09-18, 15:53   Link #2748
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That does not make sense when put in context with the Nun, or maybe to me it does not. Due to their mutual desires we can likely assume that they suffered similar fates, C.C. and the Nun (as I doubt the Nun's desire had always been to die). There has to have been a reason for her to seek her death if the code's transfer would simply free her from immortality. In fact, any immortal seeking freedom through the death from the code, would raise flags to this idea. If the value of life is to simply return once the code is gone, then none would have to seek death, they'd have to seek losing the code and then their lives would return to normal. Putting this into context that they sought death, not just the loss of the code, something is clearly missing from the equation to explain why they sought death and not simply code loss. V.V.'s strange talk before dying may hold the answer to this.
I didn't intend to address the cases of the Nun or V.V. since we don't have enough information about their lives, not to mention that V.V. is a rather recent immortal compared to C.C., but that doesn't mean it is a problem.

I was speaking of C.C.'s particular case, which is different enough by this point in R2, considering everything that has happened to her to date. That was implicit in my writing, though admittedly lacked elaboration.

My answer would be that C.C. sought death, and not just the removal of the Code and its apparently associated memory loss, for most of her life because it all became meaningless to her, to the point that death would be a viable exit....but that has now changed, or could presumably change at least, because of Lelouch.

If you want to make things simple, his existence and his relationship to C.C., now that he has all the necessary information about her past/wish and she knows that he does, may make her realize the value of life when the time for Code transfer comes, as opposed to what applied to immortals in general or even to C.C. herself, in the absence of a similar element.

Of course, this is all just my opinion, not fact, and things may turn out very differently.
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Old 2008-09-18, 15:53   Link #2749
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That's how I see the case, nothing more to add.

They assume that their life won't change at all after the immortality has been taken away, as they don't remember how living was before immortality.
Hence they rather die than continue the strugling.
- They won't forget the recent centuries of living in solitude, and they forecast that it'll be the same even if the code has been taken hence they rather die.
Some people value the death as an escape from torture(solitude in this case) far more than the life itself.
I rest my case
We'll drop the hypothetical and look at the other, slightly more concrete question then.

As this does not address my other point, though, as to why C.C.'s contract has always seemingly been about dying. From what she said in Season 2 Episode 15, every one of her contractors was given the same contract and all of them failed. It would make no sense for her to say what she did if she had given out different contracts. So, again, I ask why she didn't give the contract of: "Take my code and build me a nice house in Australia." Look at Marianne and Charles, even, she considered them friends, but her contract was the same with Marianne. There were people who would give her life a reason to exist in the past after losing her code, but her contract has always been one and the same.

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My answer would be that C.C. sought death, and not just the removal of the Code and its apparently associated memory loss, for most of her life because it all became meaningless to her....but that has now changed, or could presumably change at least, because of Lelouch. If you want to make things simple, his existence and his relationship to C.C., now that he has all the necessary information and she knows that he does, may make her realize the value of life when the time comes, as opposed to what applied to immortals in general or even to C.C. herself.
But, as I've pointed out to whiter, her contract has seemingly always been about dying given her words in Season 2 Episode 15. Even from the onset, which would counter the idea that she simply got bored of life or found it meaningless. Something, at the start, would have made her seek this end. It would make all the C.C.s seek this end and not a, "Just take my code and let me live me life till I die." They can set this as their initial contract and keep it alive as hope, giving their life purpose. But neither she nor the Nun did any such thing. And my question is, simply, why?
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Old 2008-09-18, 16:02   Link #2750
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We'll drop the hypothetical and look at the other, slightly more concrete question then.

As this does not address my other point, though, as to why C.C.'s contract has always seemingly been about dying. From what she said in Season 2 Episode 15, every one of her contractors was given the same contract and all of them failed. It would make no sense for her to say what she did if she had given out different contracts. So, again, I ask why she didn't give the contract of: "Take my code and build me a nice house in Australia." Look at Marianne and Charles, even, she considered them friends, but her contract was the same with Marianne. There were people who would give her life a reason to exist in the past after losing her code, but her contract has always been one and the same.
There's no proof that Charless and Marianne were her friends in the first place. They were just accomplices in my eyes. Given what C.C said in ep 21.
Then again, it depends how she defines the term friend.
And name even a single person that gave her a reason/resolve to exist that is different from death.(before Lelouch that is)
And the answer for the rest of your post you should know.
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Old 2008-09-18, 16:03   Link #2751
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We'll drop the hypothetical and look at the other, slightly more concrete question then.

As this does not address my other point, though, as to why C.C.'s contract has always seemingly been about dying. From what she said in Season 2 Episode 15, every one of her contractors was given the same contract and all of them failed. It would make no sense for her to say what she did if she had given out different contracts. So, again, I ask why she didn't give the contract of: "Take my code and build me a nice house in Australia." Look at Marianne and Charles, even, she considered them friends, but her contract was the same with Marianne. There were people who would give her life a reason to exist in the past after losing her code, but her contract has always been one and the same.




But, as I've pointed out to whiter, her contract has seemingly always been about dying given her words in Season 2 Episode 15. Even from the onset, which would counter the idea that she simply got bored of life or found it meaningless. Something, at the start, would have made her seek this end. It would make all the C.C.s seek this end and not a, "Just take my code and let me live me life till I die." They can set this as their initial contract and keep it alive as hope, giving their life purpose. But neither she nor the Nun did any such thing. And my question is, simply, why?

I hope you are joking. So she should make a contract to be loved? How would that any different than what her geass did to her? She wants real love. It can't be gained through contract. She thinks its impossible to gain it anymore, so she wants to die. She is tired of living pointlessly.

And Marianne and Charles wanted her code - even if she died. How are they her real firends? Lelouch unlike them saw through her and realised she that really didn't want to die at all.
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Old 2008-09-18, 16:05   Link #2752
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There's no proof that Charless and Marianne were her friends in the first place. They were just accomplices in my eyes. Given what C.C said in ep 21.
Then again, it depends how she defines the term friend.
And name even a single person that gave her a reason/resolve to exist that is different from death.
What C.C. said in Season 2 Episode 21? That she finally realized that they were selfish? That would imply to me that she did not think that until then. I suppose if you want to shoot down discussion with theirs no proof, I can't say much else. And you're still not addressing the other point that I've been waiting for an answer to for a while now.

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I hope you are joking. So she should make a contract to be loved? How would that any different than what her geass did to her? She wants real love. It can't be gained through contract. She thinks its impossible to gain it anymore, so she wants to die. She is tired of living pointlessly.
I never, once, mentioned the word love in my post. Not once. Where you reached such a conclusion, or that she should make a contract to be loved, is beyond me. My question is/was why has her contract not been: "Take my code and build me a nice house in Australia." instead of her usual "Kill me." In other words, why is her contract solely focused on death. If her wish was always to be loved, then my option for a contract would make far more sense then seeking death, as it would allow her to live normally.
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Old 2008-09-18, 16:06   Link #2753
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But, as I've pointed out to whiter, her contract has seemingly always been about dying given her words in Season 2 Episode 15. Even from the onset, which would counter the idea that she simply got bored of life or found it meaningless. Something, at the start, would have made her seek this end. It would make all the C.C.s seek this end and not a, "Just take my code and let me live me life till I die." They can set this as their initial contract and keep it alive as hope, giving their life purpose. But neither she nor the Nun did any such thing. And my question is, simply, why?
We don't know, we're just speculating.

I also assume all her contracts were the same as Lelouch's (Code transfer and death), because she had no reason to feel attached to life by the time she started making them.

I don't see how we can say she automatically started seeking death contracts from day one. We don't have enough information yet, but I imagine that it took her some time to realize what her situation was leading to (nothing, a life without meaning), over the decades and centuries of her existence. We also don't know if she really knew everything about her own powers at first. In contrast, V.V. didn't seem in a hurry to die, even if he considered staying immortal (in a child's body, no less) a curse, and had a set goal in mind through his own contract with Charles, which didn't involve death.

But all that may have already changed now or will change shortly in C.C.'s case.

It doesn't seem that C.C. developed a similar relationship with those earlier contractors nor that they understood C.C.'s actual situation, instead of being led around and staying ignorant like Lelouch was for most of his contract's duration.

I don't think anyone else gave her, or could, a reason to live without knowing both the real terms of the contract and what she really wanted, deep down, to give her life the meaning it lacked. Not Mao's childish devotion, which C.C. may have cared about too much to make him suffer immortality via Code transfer, and not Marianne who was quickly taken out and was part of the entire Ragnarok Connection tangent anyways.
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Old 2008-09-18, 16:11   Link #2754
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What C.C. said in Season 2 Episode 21? That she finally realized that they were selfish? That would imply to me that she did not think that until then. I suppose if you want to shoot down discussion with theirs no proof, I can't say much else. And you're still not addressing the other point that I've been waiting for an answer to for a while now.



I never, once, mentioned the word love in my post. Not once. Where you reached such a conclusion, or that she should make a contract to be loved, is beyond me. My question is/was why has her contract not been: "Take my code and build me a nice house in Australia." instead of her usual "Kill me." In other words, why is her contract solely focused on death. If her wish was always to be loved, then my option for a contract would make far more sense then seeking death, as it would allow her to live normally.
But she doesn't want a house. She wants to be loved. What good would a house do? She is tired of endlessly living. Death would end everything. It's like committing suicide. Why do people kill themselves? She can't so she forms contracts.

And she left Marianne and Charles and the cult. Marianne even tells in the same episode that she tried to convince her and when it failed they used Lelouch. How are they her friends?
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Old 2008-09-18, 16:13   Link #2755
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We don't know, we're just speculating.

I also assume all her contracts were the same as Lelouch's (Code transfer and death), because she had no reason to feel attached to life by the time she started making them.
But this brings up the same problem, what stops her contract from having been something that just removes the code, that which makes her suffer, and give her back her life. She knows what makes her life terrible, if she removes it, her life would have a chance at normalcy. But she never sought that option.

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I don't see how we can say she automatically started seeking death contracts from day one. We don't have enough information yet, but I imagine that it took her some time to realize what her situation was leading to (nothing, a life without meaning), over the decades and centuries of her existence. We also don't know if she really knew everything about her own powers at first. In contrast, V.V. didn't seem in a hurry to die, even if he considered staying immortal (in a child's body, no less) a curse, and had a set goal in mind through his own contract with Charles, which didn't involve death.
V.V.'s contract does involve death, more or less, in that he'd cease to exist and himself. The aspect of immortality would not matter when no one can die or live in a pool of LCL.

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It doesn't seem that C.C. developed a similar relationship with those earlier contractors nor that they understood C.C.'s actual situation, instead of being led around and staying ignorant like Lelouch was for most of his contract's duration.
That seems more like her own fault than anyone else's.

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I don't think anyone else gave her, or could, a reason to live without knowing both the real terms of the contract and what she really wanted, deep down, to give her life the meaning it lacked. Not Mao's childish devotion, which C.C. may have cared about too much to make him suffer immortality via Code transfer, and not Marianne who was quickly taken out and was part of the entire Ragnarok Connection tangent anyways.
But her life lacked meaning because of the code, that is what people keep telling me anyway. So if that were the case, losing the code should be her contract, not dying. There is no reason for her to just jump onto death when it isn't death that grants her anything, but it is her code that keeps her from achieving what she wants.

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But she doesn't want a house. She wants to be loved. What good would a house do? She is tired of endlessly living. Death would end everything. It's like committing suicide. Why do people kill themselves? She can't so she forms contracts.

And she left Marianne and Charles and the cult. Marianne even tells in the same episode that she tried to convince her and when it failed they used Lelouch. How are they her friends?
I don't think you are understanding my point. Her code is what makes her hate her existence, if she can remove the code, she has no reason to just seek death immediately afterwards. Especially if her wish is to be loved. If she can remove her code, she can remove all her dealing with Geass, and can go live a normal life with several hundred years of experience allowing her to be, more or less, like Horo.
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Old 2008-09-18, 16:18   Link #2756
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But this brings up the same problem, what stops her contract from having been something that just removes the code, that which makes her suffer, and give her back her life. She knows what makes her life terrible, if she removes it, her life would have a chance at normalcy. But she never sought that option.
Can you even remove someone's code without killing them? I don't think so. Why did V.V. die then? He should have become mortal. That is the whole point. Giving power to someone, so that they are one day able to kill you and put an end to everything. That is what the Nun tells. That is what C.C. explains about Code/Geass in ep 15.
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Old 2008-09-18, 16:19   Link #2757
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Originally Posted by Tael View Post
But this brings up the same problem, what stops her contract from having been something that just removes the code, that which makes her suffer, and give her back her life. She knows what makes her life terrible, if she removes it, her life would have a chance at normalcy. But she never sought that option.
The point is that she doesn't know it, her mind has been corrupted by the life she has been living as an immortal. But when she encounters someone that truly loves her, she may remember/realize this again.
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Old 2008-09-18, 16:20   Link #2758
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Can you even remove someone's code without killing them? I don't think so. Why did V.V. die then? He should have become mortal. That is the whole point. Giving power to someone, so that they are one day able to kill you and put an end to everything. That is what the Nun tells. That is what C.C. explains about Code/Geass in ep 15.
Um... Yes? The Code Removal doesn't kill the person. Look at V.V.. He didn't die because his Code was removed. he died because he had traumatic injuries. After the Code was removed, he couldn't survive. Thus died. They can die after the Code so obviously when the Nun forced the Code onto C.C. she probably wounded herself so she would die after the transfer. But if they lose the Code it doesn't mean they will die because of it.
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Old 2008-09-18, 16:22   Link #2759
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Can you even remove someone's code without killing them? I don't think so. Why did V.V. die then? He should have become mortal. That is the whole point. Giving power to someone, so that they are one day able to kill you and put an end to everything. That is what the Nun tells. That is what C.C. explains about Code/Geass in ep 15.
I thought that everyone here was arguing about C.C. losing her code and remaining. I share your opinion on that the loss of the code being fatal (in that their identity is erased like we had with young C.C. and what seemingly happened to V.V.) but I don't think this applies to the conversation. I'm confused now.

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The point is that she doesn't know it, her mind has been corrupted by the life she has been living as an immortal. But when she encounters someone that truly loves her, she may remember/realize this again.
How could she have not just done it at the start of her existence as an immortal?

C.C.: "Ok, my life sucks because of this code. My contract should be for them to take it away and let me live my life the way I want."
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Old 2008-09-18, 16:24   Link #2760
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Originally Posted by Tael View Post
C.C.: "Ok, my life sucks because of this code. My contract should be for them to take it away and let me live my life the way I want."
She didn't realize it untill it was too late, or atleast it appears so, or maybe there wasn't anyone to take the code away from her/make contract with her, untill it was too late. We don't posses the knowledge over her past to this extent, but if her contract has always been about dying, I would assume that she was tortured for decades and she lost the will to live or something similar. (as the religion turned against her)
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