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Old 2008-12-16, 15:32   Link #4261
Lie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AceFlashheart View Post
Is this a plot hole? It's tough to stomach that Kallen would be so cool with organising the murder of unarmed japanese.

Makes you wonder why she'd bother abandoning him at all if it's true.

It certainly makes me like Kallen less, but this isn't her thread as you say.
Excuse me, but where are you getting these things from? Organising the murder of unarmed Japanese? What show were you watching and when? He did not organize anything, it happened, by bad-chance at the worst moment. He made a bad joke, that is all that he is guilty of.
She abbandoned someone she thought was not the Lelouch she knew. This has also been beaten home with a very large bat. The Lelouch she left to die, wasn't the Lelouch she knew. We know this, because he was lying to her and everyone in that scene to appear the bad guy, again.
You like Kallen less because of... innacurate judgement?
You should like everyone less by the standards you just used, this includes Suzaku, C.C., Nunally, Rolo.
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Old 2008-12-16, 15:55   Link #4262
Lolipopo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AceFlashheart View Post

*dissertation stuff*
We got a romance thread and that's what annoys me. I can hardly answer to you there cause since CluClu isn't the only subject there it would end up being off topic.

BTW, about your way to think about Kallen, bring it in Kallen's thread, it would be Off topic to answer there (and I think we have plenty to talk about )

Now About CC.

When things are clear, official stuff aren't needed; But CG end was ambiguous for everyone: between feelings, cart driver theories and everything, we needed a bunch of answers, that's why for a show like this I don't think official stuff can be easily dismissed.
Lelouch is dead, and he saw CC as an equal, but neither as a lover, nor as a mother.

For me it's important, cause well...those are staff words ? Now everyone can like what he likes, but it was just a precision about why in my view official stuff is pretty important for this show.


Now I never saw CC as someone interested in LUlu. Shirley was interested in Lulu. Kallen was interested in Lulu. CC...? I never saw things like that; Back to season 1, she care for him like a mother for a child; In season 2 they hardly interact; Their moments were Turn 15/21/23/24.
Turn 15 : Lelouch learn of her past, of her true wish and is able to convince her to stay alive; An evolution could have been possible there but...CC was Moe at the end, and this killed the devellopment between her and Lelouch.
Turn 21: Lelouch Learn everything about marianne/Charles and CC, he is pretty pissed off.
Turn 23: CC comfort Lelouch; I saw this as the parallel of this scene when she comforted him after Euphie's death, Turn 23. She shows she cares about him but...that's all. Nothing who can let you think about romance.
Turn 24: CC is relieved and happy by the fact Lelouch doesn't hate her. he promised he'll make her smile before her death.
CC, during her fight with Kallen, said she wasn't sure of what she felt for Lelouch; It was the big difference between the two girls BTW. Now for the "You win..."; I never really thought CC was talking about the mecha fight (It doesn't seems like her) but we will never know.

Finally, We know they cared for each other but that's all, nothing can convince us it was something else (But official stuff. Which is agreeing with me)
Now, when I see Lelouch's relationship with Shirley, Kallen and CC, I don't have a lot of doubt about which relationship was about romance and which wasn't (and one more time, official stuff agree. I'm Taniguchi's daughter, mark my words.)

Lelouch shown to CC she was still able to have feelings and to be human; It was the whole point of the "smile", If CC can be happy, she feels joy and so, she "feels". She is human. Lelouch cared for her and he never betrayed her, just like he showed in Turn 24; He didn't hate her despites everything she done (and it was plenty, let's be fair.)

So well, I don't see any romance there; A deep bond sure, but not a romantic one, though there was the stuff to make of this one. But Writers choosed the Kallen's path in R2 and gave her the romance plot instead of C.C. who was for me, in R2, really wasted.

A lot of potential wasted. That's a pity but CC is still CC. She was an interesting character who could have been handled better.
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Old 2008-12-16, 16:02   Link #4263
AceFlashheart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lie View Post
Excuse me, but where are you getting these things from? Organising the murder of unarmed Japanese? What show were you watching and when? He did not organize anything, it happened, by bad-chance at the worst moment. He made a bad joke, that is all that he is guilty of.
She abbandoned someone she thought was not the Lelouch she knew. This has also been beaten home with a very large bat. The Lelouch she left to die, wasn't the Lelouch she knew. We know this, because he was lying to her and everyone in that scene to appear the bad guy, again.
You like Kallen less because of... innacurate judgement?
You should like everyone less by the standards you just used, this includes Suzaku, C.C., Nunally, Rolo.
I PM'd you, since we shouldn't start massive Kallen debate on C.C. thread.
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Old 2008-12-16, 16:08   Link #4264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
We got a romance thread and that's what annoys me. I can hardly answer to you there cause since CluClu isn't the only subject there it would end up being off topic.

BTW, about your way to think about Kallen, bring it in Kallen's thread, it would be Off topic to answer there (and I think we have plenty to talk about )

Now About CC.

When things are clear, official stuff aren't needed; But CG end was ambiguous for everyone: between feelings, cart driver theories and everything, we needed a bunch of answers, that's why for a show like this I don't think official stuff can be easily dismissed.
Lelouch is dead, and he saw CC as an equal, but neither as a lover, nor as a mother.

For me it's important, cause well...those are staff words ? Now everyone can like what he likes, but it was just a precision about why in my view official stuff is pretty important for this show.


Now I never saw CC as someone interested in LUlu. Shirley was interested in Lulu. Kallen was interested in Lulu. CC...? I never saw things like that; Back to season 1, she care for him like a mother for a child; In season 2 they hardly interact; Their moments were Turn 15/21/23/24.
Turn 15 : Lelouch learn of her past, of her true wish and is able to convince her to stay alive; An evolution could have been possible there but...CC was Moe at the end, and this killed the devellopment between her and Lelouch.
Turn 21: Lelouch Learn everything about marianne/Charles and CC, he is pretty pissed off.
Turn 23: CC comfort Lelouch; I saw this as the parallel of this scene when she comforted him after Euphie's death, Turn 23. She shows she cares about him but...that's all. Nothing who can let you think about romance.
Turn 24: CC is relieved and happy by the fact Lelouch doesn't hate her. he promised he'll make her smile before her death.
CC, during her fight with Kallen, said she wasn't sure of what she felt for Lelouch; It was the big difference between the two girls BTW. Now for the "You win..."; I never really thought CC was talking about the mecha fight (It doesn't seems like her) but we will never know.

Finally, We know they cared for each other but that's all, nothing can convince us it was something else (But official stuff. Which is agreeing with me)
Now, when I see Lelouch's relationship with Shirley, Kallen and CC, I don't have a lot of doubt about which relationship was about romance and which wasn't (and one more time, official stuff agree. I'm Taniguchi's daughter, mark my words.)

Lelouch shown to CC she was still able to have feelings and to be human; It was the whole point of the "smile", If CC can be happy, she feels joy and so, she "feels". She is human. Lelouch cared for her and he never betrayed her, just like he showed in Turn 24; He didn't hate her despites everything she done (and it was plenty, let's be fair.)

So well, I don't see any romance there; A deep bond sure, but not a romantic one, though there was the stuff to make of this one. But Writers choosed the Kallen's path in R2 and gave her the romance plot instead of C.C. who was for me, in R2, really wasted.

A lot of potential wasted. That's a pity but CC is still CC. She was an interesting character who could have been handled better.

About C.C's feelings, i still stand on my opinion that episode 24, was a key epi, it was the "moment of clarity" for C.C.
Quoting from before::

On the other hand, episode 24 was different. This scene was probably the most meaningful for C.C in the whole series. That little measure of time, her convo with Lelouch, was enough to be life-altering for her. She finally "found" someone that did not see her as "witch" {even if that was an in-joke that Lelouch used but anyway}, that did not push the whole Geass-blame on her, someone that treated her exactly as equal.
I believe that moment, was a moment of clarity for C.C She even said it herself, that she has never met a man like him. It was a first for her and her feelings. I don't know if this can be interpreted as "romantic love feelings" but something that makes you question yourself, like C.C did in epi 24 in the convo with Kallen, well, it's gotta mean something.
That was more from C.C pov though. Lelouch is a lot more difficult to read when it comes to his feelings for C.C but this whatever-that-came {forgot what it was} stating that he never saw her as a lover, mother etc but as an equal, makes things a bit easier i guess.


As for the official stuff, they are official, no one can deny this. But sometimes it is cheap this way, i mean, choosing that way to state some important things, i feel kinda frustrated at some things and the way we learned of them through NT and stuff. Oh, well.
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Old 2008-12-16, 16:14   Link #4265
Akakishi
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Holy Official stuff!

BTW, some people focus a lot in R2 and in Official Holy Stuff, it's quite normal, it official, Holy Official, we have to conform with Official but as I remind the first season of CG (is it official?)
C.C
Spoiler for sex scene:

(maybe as an equal, so sorry or as a person who care like a mother for his child or perhaps in official stuff, this scene is remote?)
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Old 2008-12-16, 16:16   Link #4266
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I would have liked for Sunrise to keep everything ambiguous, but I don't know, it kind of makes sense if you see Lelouch as someone who never really had time for romance. He canonically doesn't really know anything about love, in that way, and I think he just "loved" people as they were. He might have changed overtime, in a war-free context, and started questioning his feelings for people he was really close to, but I don't think he was at that point by the end of the series. Which would explain, in a way, his reaction to the whole Shirley subplot in my opinion.
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Old 2008-12-16, 16:16   Link #4267
Grey Dawn
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C.C. often seems to use her mouth for doing stuff with her code, like with Charles when he was going to take her code. In this case, it's stated that she was "downloading" Lelouch's memories. She kisses him again in episode 1 of r2 to give him back his memories.

Anyways, it was stated that there was basically no romance in season 1.
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Old 2008-12-16, 16:20   Link #4268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Dawn View Post

Anyways, it was stated that there was basically no romance in season 1.

Romance as in mutual reaction right? Cause technically, since it is C.C's thread here afterall, the scenes in episode 11 and 15 between her and Lelouch, could be interpreted as "romantic hints". {not to mention the Mao arc/Shirley here cause it would get off topic // and btw, whoever stated that obviously forgot Suzu/Euphie}
Honest, sometimes i am confused with how a lot of people define "romance" in anime, got a hard time to figure this out. "^^
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Old 2008-12-16, 16:36   Link #4269
Lolipopo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akakishi View Post
Holy Official stuff!

BTW, some people focus a lot in R2 and in Official Holy Stuff, it's quite normal, it official, Holy Official, we have to conform with Official but as I remind the first season of CG (is it official?)
C.C
Spoiler for sex scene:

(maybe as an equal, so sorry or as a person who care like a mother for his child or perhaps in official stuff, this scene is remote?)

Yukana's words at the end of S1 : CC's feelings for lelouch are platonic in a mother way (for season 1)
Staff words : CC's kisses were to save and return his memories.

And to Grey Dawn :Yup it was backed (after Turn 13 or something like that if I remember well) that Romance plot as well as Kallen's screentime has been moved to R2.

There it is for the holy official stuff; I really care about those since the end of destiny, without that i'll be certainly totally frustrated by this shittiest next part of Seed. And I think it's better to have all the keys to understand the show and back up our statements.


Quote:
I would have liked for Sunrise to keep everything ambiguous, but I don't know, it kind of makes sense if you see Lelouch as someone who never really had time for romance.
Actually I have to admit that this release surprise me. If I thought and hope we will have confirmation about Lelouch's death, I would have never thought they'll come like that etablishing things about romance.
I can't lie, I don't dislike this at all, but it kill a little the fun. Though those statements will never stop some people to love and to debate about those pairings because they don't care about those stuff, so well.
But I'm surprise. really.
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Old 2008-12-16, 17:00   Link #4270
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Oh yeah, I forget, after all C.C is a witch and witch's kiss is to save and return memories
She's sometimes consider as a woman when it fit (for this scene, it suits that we must consider her as a witch)

Official Holy Stuff shed light on my mind!

All Hail Yukana!
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Old 2008-12-16, 17:04   Link #4271
Destiny1027
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The story always moves along when Lelouch, CC, and Suzaku are together.

I admire CC's absolute understanding of Lelouch they are two of a kind. The two people who know him the best are Suzaku and CC. Lelouch's sword and shield.
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Old 2008-12-16, 17:04   Link #4272
Lolipopo
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Originally Posted by Akakishi View Post
Oh yeah, I forget, after all C.C is a witch and witch's kiss is to save and return memories
She's sometimes consider as a woman when it fit (for this scene, it suits that we must consider her as a witch)

Official Holy Stuff shed light on my mind!
Heh, don't blame us, blame writers. They said it was not about feelings that's all, you can't force CC to fall in love with Lulu.

And let's not be blind, the whole "kiss" was to please fans too. But it doesn't change the fact those were business kisses.
(It seems pretty obvious with R2 kiss BTRW. Heh, there her kiss went from nowhere, we can relate this easily with the first one, especially with her line "Time to break the seal"

She put a seal and she broke it.
destiny : Funny to see that during the whole show but the end, the sword and shield role was assumed by another person :'P
And that those sword and shield have been defeated by this very person. Classy *off*
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Old 2008-12-16, 17:14   Link #4273
Narona
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
I don't dislike this at all, but it kill a little the fun. Though those statements will never stop some people to love and to debate about those pairings because they don't care about those stuff, so well.
But I'm surprise. really.
Not that they confirmed a pairing Lelouxh X someone (IMO ) so it's fine with me

But yeah it kills the fun. But in a way, now the pairing war is over, at least from the Cluclu camp.
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Old 2008-12-16, 17:19   Link #4274
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Not that they confirmed a pairing Lelouxh X someone (IMO ) so it's fine with me

But yeah it kills the fun. But in a way, now the pairing war is over, at least from the Cluclu camp.
Heh I agree xD We, Kalulu fans are still in our ambiguous bitterweetness haze
Well you know the war will never be over, though yeah, this kind of thing wasn't expected. especially with their last artwors and stuff.

But well this if for romance thread so back to CC; I just saw her name was supposed to be Sera; was it her name before "CC" or could it be her "True name" ?

Anyway I like it way more than Cecaniah, Sera fits her well.
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Old 2008-12-16, 17:27   Link #4275
Narona
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Heh I agree xD We, Kalulu fans are still in our ambiguous bitterweetness haze
Well you know the war will never be over, though yeah, this kind of thing wasn't expected. especially with their last artwors and stuff.

But well this if for romance thread so back to CC; I just saw her name was supposed to be Sera; was it her name before "CC" or could it be her "True name" ?

Anyway I like it way more than Cecaniah, Sera fits her well.
Spoiler for offtopic:


IIRC, It was said in the official website that C.C. is the name of the Code, not something related to the "c.c." we know. So I tend to trust the name Sera more.

About the "Cecania something" name, I still wait for proof/scans/something . I don't really like that name TBH.
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Old 2008-12-16, 17:28   Link #4276
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
Heh, don't blame us, blame writers. They said it was not about feelings that's all, you can't force CC to fall in love with Lulu.
Again, Loli. lawl
It is about Lelouch falling in love with her, as she pretty much questioned this herself in epi 24, so it is on the table for her.
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Old 2008-12-16, 17:29   Link #4277
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Again, Loli. lawl
It is about Lelouch falling in love with her, as she pretty much questioned this herself in epi 24, so it is on the table for her.
True, the statement is that Lelouch didn't see her as a mother, nor a Lover, but they haven't stated that C.C., on her side, was not in love with him in R2
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Old 2008-12-16, 17:30   Link #4278
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Spoiler for offtopic:


IIRC, It was said in the official website that C.C. is the name of the Code, not something related to the "c.c." we know. So I tend to trust the name Sera more.

About the "Cecania something" name, I still wait for proof/scans/something . I don't really like that name TBH.
Actually canon is an impossible word...the Kalulu credo is "closest as canon" (ehehehe admit we are smart *off*)


I don't believe in this cecaniah thing too (and I don't like it TOO), the first time I saw it, it was pretty early, on a CluClu fanfiction, so hard to believe it.

I thought until recently that CC's name will stay hidden but with recent stuff and everything, I'll not be surprise if "Sera" was really her name. Though I think it was before "CC" but well, maybe more infos on mutuality...)
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Old 2008-12-16, 17:32   Link #4279
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
True, the statement is that Lelouch didn't see her as a mother, nor a Lover, but they haven't stated that C.C., on her side, was not in love with him in R2

Which again, is kinda obvious {as everything has been 'kinda obvious' the latest days, if you get my sarcasm} in the last two epis, but i won't go on about it again ~
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Old 2008-12-16, 17:34   Link #4280
Narona
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
Actually canon is an impossible word...the Kalulu credo is "closest as canon" (ehehehe admit we are smart *off*)


I don't believe in this cecaniah thing too (and I don't like it TOO), the first time I saw it, it was pretty early, on a CluClu fanfiction, so hard to believe it.

I thought until recently that CC's name will stay hidden but with recent stuff and everything, I'll not be surprise if "Sera" was really her name. Though I think it was before "CC" but well, maybe more infos on mutuality...)
Making assumptions in not what I call smart *off*. Nah kidding. Now seriously, shirlulu it's still up in the air about being close to canon. After her death, some people said that she was out of the race etc. because she was dead. But now Lelouch is dead too. And the CG staff never stated that lelouch was not in love with her. We only got a confirmation about his feelings towards c.c., and it was not romantic love.

Anyway, as skyless said it. We got an answer about lelouch's feelings, but not about c.c.'s feelings in R2. I'm still waiting for that, because ep24 was not clear about that.

Sera sounds good. Fine with me if it's really her name. However, sad to not have learned it in the anime
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