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Old 2012-05-01, 03:30   Link #4901
Xander
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Forgive me for hurrying a bit, but I do want to provide at least one response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
However, it is not so much a matter of following conventional story telling "rules" it is, as I said prior, the breaking of the rules the writer sets in the begining of his/her own story at the end of the story that ruins it.

That is what happened to Code Geass in my opinion.
I'm not trying to say that applies to every single questionable thing in Code Geass, but in this case I do feel Taniguchi and Okouchi have established a pattern or "rule", if you want to call it that, which isn't particularly conventional: they don't see the need to spell everything out and there are ambiguous elements all over the place, from the first episode of Code Geass onward.

That is a part of their storytelling style. Even Okouchi said that they didn't want to explain everything, when confronted with the fact that some questions still remain unanswered after R2 in an interview. This is also true about some of Taniguchi's previous works, where a number of issues and even a couple of aspects concerning the romantic relationships are either left open-ended or up to interpretation, some of which are more annoying than others.

Not unlike your interpretation about C.C.'s fate possibly being a type of solitary "hell" if Lelouch left her behind in an irresponsible manner, there are a few people who consider at least one of the endings for another Taniguchi show as insufficient or terrible, because the characters didn't necessarily end up together or at least had to be separated for a long period of time for reasons that can be classified as irresponsible from a certain angle. I'd rather not specify which show in particular is concerned though, for the sake of limiting spoilers.

Of course, I know we also have to accept there are proper mistakes as well as sloppy cuts made for time. R2 was a problematic production.

But who can decisively draw the line between each of these issues and the intentionally ambiguous elements? If you didn't like something and this runs contrary to your expectations, or those you believe the story created, when is it a mistake and when is it a storytelling decision? What happens if someone else doesn't think it is?

There's no universal answer here. My point is this also goes for the C.C. and Lelouch relationship we have been discussing here...even if, like I've said before, I don't really think Lelouch left her alone, in retrospect, if we conclude that he may well have survived after all, despite the literal interpretation of the writer's comments.
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Old 2012-05-01, 04:41   Link #4902
Ten-Go
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I can't agree that R2 writing/story is bad/underdeveloped overall. Of course, there are some storylines and characters which further continuation/developement would be nice for the series. But you know, Kallen's fans - they want more Kallen story, C.C. fans - more of evergreen immortal witch, majority of people watched CG (at least I think so) wants another ending, etc etc etc. But you know what? Everyone wants his own ending for the series. People still argue about writing/story, logics behind and possible solutions for problems they see in Code Geass universe, years after. I think you guys remember the internet after 25th ep. of R2 =) Not only /a/ cryed. Countless posts, theories... For me it's the biggest proof of the story to be great. With all the plotholes (>implying there are some) and fanservice, "bad writing", underdevelopement, R2 made Code Geass prominent forever.

About Lelouch leaving C.C. It's up to you to decide wether he left her or not ) If hes dead - they can be together in world of C. If he took Charles Code - they have eternity to enjoy each other's company. If he took C.C.'s Code - they still have a life to live. They can even die in one day - if Suzaku's Geass would grow big enough to accept the Code. Anyhow, C.C. was looking quite happy in the final scene.

And the last thing. Sorry if someone finds it offensive, I don't want to go holywar. Gundam00 having better writing? Gundam? Writing? Seriously? I'm not saying Gundam00 is bad anime, but it's kinda... regular one.
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Old 2012-05-01, 10:55   Link #4903
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
Forgive me for hurrying a bit, but I do want to provide at least one response.
No problem, just post more later if you want.
I'll be here sooner or later.

Quote:
That is a part of their storytelling style. Even Okouchi said that they didn't want to explain everything, when confronted with the fact that some questions still remain unanswered after R2 in an interview....
Wasn't the interviewer asking about the power of Geass and the nature of Codes?
I could swear Okouchi told him they said too much about that aspect of the show, but I don't remember any discussion about the Zero Requiem or Lelouch and C.C.'s relationship as a whole.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make here is that the rule set forth the show was that Lelouch was supposed to make a better world.
The problem with that is Okouchi wrote that Mount Fuji held 70% of the world's Sakuradite reserves.
That was the world's primary source of power and Lelouch blew it up.
As a writer, you cannot make that level of continuity error and expect to get a pass.
To claim world peace after the main character wipes out the world's primary source of energy is ridiculous.
If a terrorist group destroyied the oil fields in Saudi Arabi today, there would be a World War tomorrow for control of what oil reserves were left.
The Sakuradite gaffe is only one of many.

Quote:
Not unlike your interpretation about C.C.'s fate possibly being a type of solitary "hell" if Lelouch left her behind in an irresponsible manner, there are a few people who consider at least one of the endings for another Taniguchi show as insufficient or terrible, because the characters didn't necessarily end up together or at least had to be separated for a long period of time for reasons that can be classified as irresponsible from a certain angle. I'd rather not specify which show in particular is concerned though, for the sake of limiting spoilers.
Again, if they (Okouchi and Taniguichi) hadn't had Lelouch ask C.C. "why didn't you trick me into your hell of eternal life?" then I wouldn't have this opinion.
Continuity is the fabric of any good storytelling no matter how Liberal or edgy it is supposed to be.
Once that is broken, the story collapses in on itself.
That was the problem with the show Blue Seed, which is a good example of what NOT to do in a story.
The end didn't match the events of the show and it crumbled into obscurity because of it.

Quote:
But who can decisively draw the line between each of these issues and the intentionally ambiguous elements? If you didn't like something and this runs contrary to your expectations, or those you believe the story created, when is it a mistake and when is it a storytelling decision? What happens if someone else doesn't think it is?
Who?
Oh I'd say Kirkus Review, Publisher's Weekly, Library Journal, Starlog Magazine, Analog, and just about every other major critic/review service/magazine of Sci-Fi and Fantasy out there.
I've had my own work reviewed/criticized by most of them so I can say what it is they are looking for and Code Geass would not make the grain because of its ending.
Hell, most stated that my story was epic but lacked the level of romantic elements they want in a story (a clear pairing is a must, and love-triangles or incomplete relationships is a no-no).

Quote:
There's no universal answer here. My point is this also goes for the C.C. and Lelouch relationship we have been discussing here...even if, like I've said before, I don't really think Lelouch left her alone, in retrospect, if we conclude that he may well have survived after all, despite the literal interpretation of the writer's comments.
My girlfriend has a similar point of view as you posted here Xander.
She doesn't care what anyone else says, and perhaps I should follow her advice.
To her, Lelouch lived with Charle's Code and is with C.C. to fulfill his side of the bargain.
That really is the only view she thinks makes sense and I'm begining to agree with her.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ten-Go View Post
I can't agree that R2 writing/story is bad/underdeveloped overall. Of course, there are some storylines and characters which further continuation/developement would be nice for the series. But you know, Kallen's fans - they want more Kallen story, C.C. fans - more of evergreen immortal witch, majority of people watched CG (at least I think so) wants another ending, etc etc etc. But you know what? Everyone wants his own ending for the series. People still argue about writing/story, logics behind and possible solutions for problems they see in Code Geass universe, years after. I think you guys remember the internet after 25th ep. of R2 =) Not only /a/ cryed. Countless posts, theories... For me it's the biggest proof of the story to be great. With all the plotholes (>implying there are some) and fanservice, "bad writing", underdevelopement, R2 made Code Geass prominent forever.
But you have to admit Ten-Go that it could have been much, much better.

Quote:
About Lelouch leaving C.C. It's up to you to decide wether he left her or not ) If hes dead - they can be together in world of C. If he took Charles Code - they have eternity to enjoy each other's company. If he took C.C.'s Code - they still have a life to live. They can even die in one day - if Suzaku's Geass would grow big enough to accept the Code. Anyhow, C.C. was looking quite happy in the final scene.
That's why I wish Okouchi would have not publicly stated that Lelouch was dead.
He created more problems than the statement was worth.

Quote:
And the last thing. Sorry if someone finds it offensive, I don't want to go holywar. Gundam00 having better writing? Gundam? Writing? Seriously? I'm not saying Gundam00 is bad anime, but it's kinda... regular one.
BLASPHEMER!!!
May a thousand of Lacus' bouncing Haros plague your dreams!

If Gundam has anything it is continuity within each universe (well accept SEED Destiny, they dropped the ball/Haro on that one).

Gundam is supposed to be a hard-SF story loosely based on Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers (one of my favority SF stories BTW).
Therefore, it is supposed to be "regular" in that is follows strict rules of Science Fiction as laid out by John Campbell.

You can read about those rules here.
"Who Was John Campbell?"
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Old 2012-05-01, 14:08   Link #4904
Xander
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Wasn't the interviewer asking about the power of Geass and the nature of Codes?
I could swear Okouchi told him they said too much about that aspect of the show, but I don't remember any discussion about the Zero Requiem or Lelouch and C.C.'s relationship as a whole.
No, the terms used were more general. I quote:

Quote:
-----Some unresolved mysteries still remain.

Okouchi: From the very beginning, [I/we] never planned on explaining everything. In fact, if you ask me, I think we might have overdone the explanations. While it's undeniable that Lelouch's story has ended with a full stop, the other characters' stories are still on-going, and it's not like the world [of Code Geass] itself has come to an end either. [I/we] didn't want to end it by closing it up for good.
The previous exchange was about the epilogue and the characters involved. This particular question itself does refer to "mysteries" and one could assume that's implying Geass-related issues, but Okouchi's reply includes the state of the world and its characters, not simply the nature of Geass itself. Which is why I definitely feel this is relevant in terms of describing the overall storytelling style.

Quote:
To claim world peace after the main character wipes out the world's primary source of energy is ridiculous.
If a terrorist group destroyied the oil fields in Saudi Arabi today, there would be a World War tomorrow for control of what oil reserves were left.
The Sakuradite gaffe is only one of many.
This is a different can of worms, even if I also believe it qualifies as a storytelling issue, but I've never agreed with that analogy myself on either level.

On the one hand, this is more like someone destroying those oil fields at the end of World War II or, for that matter, during a hypothetical World War III in which the major powers ended up exhausting most of their military force during the fight. On the other, it would be in the best interests of the powers that be to cooperate, not spontaneously start another war, particularly when an external party (terrorists, Emperor Lelouch) is to blame, not each other, as an act of force majeure that could not have been foreseen.

The rest of the details depend on extrapolating over unknown factors and are thus a matter of personal speculation, but any serious prospective exercise (which is hard to apply to something like fiction, because of its inherent limitations) would produce various possible future scenarios, not just a single one.

Quote:
Again, if they (Okouchi and Taniguichi) hadn't had Lelouch ask C.C. "why didn't you trick me into your hell of eternal life?" then I wouldn't have this opinion.
Continuity is the fabric of any good storytelling no matter how Liberal or edgy it is supposed to be.
Once that is broken, the story collapses in on itself.
And yet, I did not necessarily interpret that line the same way. Lelouch was desperately posing a rhetorical question during a moment in time when C.C. did not seem to care about anything other than dying, yes, but the point is that attitude did not appear to match her behavior towards him. Which is when we learn that her true wish is not "to die in order be freed from the hell of eternal life" but rather to be truly loved or "smile" as the case may have it. And I believe we have already traded opinions about that last part.

Quote:
Who?
Oh I'd say Kirkus Review, Publisher's Weekly, Library Journal, Starlog Magazine, Analog, and just about every other major critic/review service/magazine of Sci-Fi and Fantasy out there.
I've had my own work reviewed/criticized by most of them so I can say what it is they are looking for and Code Geass would not make the grain because of its ending.
Hell, most stated that my story was epic but lacked the level of romantic elements they want in a story (a clear pairing is a must, and love-triangles or incomplete relationships is a no-no).
But, you see, they are not the one and only authorities which can allegedly be appealed to, so to speak, for a couple of reasons.

One, they haven't reviewed Code Geass and probably never will. Two, those aren't the only professional critics out there and they will not uniformly share the same opinions. And three, a positive or negative review does not constitute absolute proof of what is intentional and what is a mistake, both when it comes to romantic relationships and other issues, if they are simply judging this based on adherence to a specific set of literary conventions (and, I'd add, one which is not uniformly applied, since works with both love triangles and incomplete relationships are not automatically bashed by everyone, let alone every major critic). It wouldn't be first time something is criticized as a flaw by one literary school of thought and appreciated or understood by another set of professionals.

Quote:
My girlfriend has a similar point of view as you posted here Xander.
She doesn't care what anyone else says, and perhaps I should follow her advice.
To her, Lelouch lived with Charle's Code and is with C.C. to fulfill his side of the bargain.
That really is the only view she thinks makes sense and I'm begining to agree with her.
And maybe that is in fact what we should do, in the end, but I'm not approaching this from the position of not "caring" about what Okouchi said. I'm simply taking his words into account as one piece of the puzzle, not the whole, since he is not the lone creator (and has admitted as much).
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Old 2012-05-01, 14:26   Link #4905
Ten-Go
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But you have to admit Ten-Go that it could have been much, much better.
Speaking about stories told - sky is a limit for those things. Star Wars could have been much better. A Wild Sheep Chase could have been much better. Should I continue?

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That's why I wish Okouchi would have not publicly stated that Lelouch was dead.
He created more problems than the statement was worth.
Not a single problem here for me. Out-of-series "canon" is a thing I pretty much dont care about.

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If Gundam has anything it is continuity within each universe
Well, I wasn't paying attention to the wholeworld artificial logic and continuity while watching some Gundams, but I'll take this for granted as long as you GundamFan )

I agree that CG, in fact, doesn't have something we can call "continuity". We have TV series which are great to watch. Who cares about would people of Britannia accept Nunnally as Empress after she blew up the capital, who cares about energy sources? ) For me CG is about emotions, not facts or consequences.

And... maybe it's a little off-topic.. Shows like Code Geass and TTGL raised qualitative mainstream standards of industry, at least for me. Back into these years, I thought that some new era is coming in anime. I was wrong.
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Old 2012-05-02, 04:23   Link #4906
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Speaking about stories told - sky is a limit for those things. Star Wars could have been much better. A Wild Sheep Chase could have been much better. Should I continue?



Not a single problem here for me. Out-of-series "canon" is a thing I pretty much dont care about.



Well, I wasn't paying attention to the wholeworld artificial logic and continuity while watching some Gundams, but I'll take this for granted as long as you GundamFan )

I agree that CG, in fact, doesn't have something we can call "continuity". We have TV series which are great to watch. Who cares about would people of Britannia accept Nunnally as Empress after she blew up the capital, who cares about energy sources? ) For me CG is about emotions, not facts or consequences.
It's still bad writing, and rings hollow. It sets up all sorts of screwed up aesops.

The Zero Requiem was not just a matter of Lelouch being shortsighted, but also suicidal. Plus, the way the plot set him up from the betrayal onward was a case of Designated Evil.
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Old 2012-05-02, 11:15   Link #4907
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I don't think fictional stories have any real or perceived obligation to provide a moral lesson though, and even going back to the Greeks themselves and other ancient civilizations there are plenty of famous or popular stories with what could be currently construed as amoral or morally questionable outcomes. Not all those myths and legends were like Aesop's fables, you know. The Greek deities regularly got away with murder and rape, even as they punished humans for it.

If that were somehow supposed to be case in this day and age, then even the behavior of characters like C.C. herself (not just the usual suspects all over again) should be scrutinized and perhaps found wanting in terms of morality, but I also happen to think that would be missing the point.

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Who cares about would people of Britannia accept Nunnally as Empress after she blew up the capital...
Just for the record, Nunnally did not "blow up" the capital. Schneizel did, and lied to her about how it was done.

Last edited by Xander; 2012-05-02 at 11:54.
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Old 2012-05-02, 17:01   Link #4908
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C .C. Can be forgiven somewhat, since she had become so detached and screwed up after centuries of torment. She came to believe that one must isolate themselves from their loved ones.
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Old 2012-05-03, 04:10   Link #4909
Ten-Go
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Just for the record, Nunnally did not "blow up" the capital. Schneizel did, and lied to her about how it was done.
I wonder if people of Britannia are aware of this fact. Schneizel promoted Nunnally for Empress, I believe, publicly, also Nunnally kept him in government after her re-establishment. In people's eyes they are both responsible for the war crimes.
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Old 2012-05-03, 15:47   Link #4910
Xander
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C .C. Can be forgiven somewhat, since she had become so detached and screwed up after centuries of torment. She came to believe that one must isolate themselves from their loved ones.
And yet, that's an explanation rather than a moral justification, especially if we are going to be cynical about it.

C.C. has certainly endured a lot of suffering throughout the years, but she has also directly and indirectly caused a lot of harm.

Even just during the period covered by the show we have seen her cooperating with Lelouch, and having a hand in everything from killing Mao to disposing of Geass cult scientists. I do sympathize with her, of course, but if she were taken before an omniscient moral court, I'd doubt she would escape punishment even if we took her past into consideration.

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Originally Posted by Ten-Go View Post
I wonder if people of Britannia are aware of this fact. Schneizel promoted Nunnally for Empress, I believe, publicly, also Nunnally kept him in government after her re-establishment. In people's eyes they are both responsible for the war crimes.
After giving it some thought, I've posted my reply to this in a more appropriate thread.
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Old 2012-05-04, 04:41   Link #4911
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Mao was a mercy kill. And at the very least for C. C., her mistakes were not all in cold blood, and she has more of a shot at personal redemption.

Nunnally was all but a complete pawn of Schneizel's.
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Old 2012-05-04, 07:06   Link #4912
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at the end of r2 C.C was shown riding a cart or something and was mentioning lelouch may be in her thoughts, so what was the end for her
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Old 2012-05-04, 12:24   Link #4913
Xander
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Mao was a mercy kill. And at the very least for C. C., her mistakes were not all in cold blood, and she has more of a shot at personal redemption.
A mercy kill that, as the potential prosecution would argue, only happened as a result of C.C. giving Mao a Geass in the first place and then abandoning him for years.

Similarly, would the moral judges of the world just trust that a runaway C.C.'s possible personal redemption, whether alone or together with Lelouch, will make up for her past criminal actions and complicity, in the absence of a process where the victims are provided with at least a form of symbolic justice, truth and reparations? There are no current guarantees of non-repetition.

Once again, it should be clearly noted that I don't see the need for any of this and, thankfully, there is no such thing as a so-called moral court involved in the story.

Quote:
Nunnally was all but a complete pawn of Schneizel's.
But who was mostly to blame for that? Lelouch, first and foremost. He involved Nunnally in this mess and then pushed her away instead of trying to explain anything.

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at the end of r2 C.C was shown riding a cart or something and was mentioning lelouch may be in her thoughts, so what was the end for her
The interpretations of her ending, so to speak, tend to depend on whatever you believe about Lelouch's fate. That has been previously discussed in this topic.
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Old 2012-05-05, 02:24   Link #4914
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A mercy kill that, as the potential prosecution would argue, only happened as a result of C.C. giving Mao a Geass in the first place and then abandoning him for years.

Similarly, would the moral judges of the world just trust that a runaway C.C.'s possible personal redemption, whether alone or together with Lelouch, will make up for her past criminal actions and complicity, in the absence of a process where the victims are provided with at least a form of symbolic justice, truth and reparations? There are no current guarantees of non-repetition.

Once again, it should be clearly noted that I don't see the need for any of this and, thankfully, there is no such thing as a so-called moral court involved in the story.
She thought it would help him become self-reliant in the end, based on her own failed experiences with love. She was wrong.

Quote:
But who was mostly to blame for that? Lelouch, first and foremost. He involved Nunnally in this mess and then pushed her away instead of trying to explain anything.
So it's all Lelouch's fault he was kept away from her on so many occasions thus keeping him from being able to tell her, not to mention that it was Schneizel himself who misled her even more about her brother and made it so said brother thought she was dead and thus went with the tyrant masquerade before revealing she was alive all along and now turned against him?

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Old 2012-05-05, 04:05   Link #4915
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She thought it would help him become self-reliant in the end, based on her own failed experiences with love. She was wrong.
And I'm fine with that.

I've just been providing an example of what a purely morality-based criticism of C.C. would consist of, at least in part, if we were to assume such a perspective.

Quote:
So it's all Lelouch's fault he was kept away from her on so many occasions thus keeping him from being able to tell her, not to mention that it was Schneizel himself who misled her even more about her brother and made it so said brother thought she was dead and thus went with the tyrant masquerade before revealing she was alive all along and now turned against him?
Not all the time, but his role was far from secondary or insignificant. Change what he actually did and the situation would have seemed completely different to her.

Even if he wasn't responsible for every part of the process, Lelouch's own actions and omissions made things easy for people like Schneizel (or, say, Charles and V.V.).
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Old 2012-05-05, 04:18   Link #4916
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And I'm fine with that.

I've just been providing an example of what a purely morality-based criticism of C.C. would consist of, at least in part, if we were to assume such a perspective.
I suppose. It does help her case that she realizes and regrets what she has done though, contrary to other characters.

Quote:
Not all the time, but his role was far from secondary or insignificant. Change what he actually did and the situation would have seemed completely different to her.

Even if he wasn't responsible for every part of the process, Lelouch's own actions and omissions made things easy for people like Schneizel (or, say, Charles and V.V.).
Schneizel still did a fair bit of futzing around with the facts, not to mention putting Lelouch towards even more adversity towards that end. While Lelouch may have not always done the most right minded things, let's face it, R2 seemed designed to keep Lelouch estranged from Nunnally regardless of his efforts. Besides, given Nunnally's self-hindering choice to work within the system, Lelouch HAD to continue as Zero.
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Old 2012-05-19, 05:13   Link #4917
rinichan
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will someone help me look for CC's poem that I read somewhere 2-3 years ago...
it says something on the line "sleep"...
Cant find it... need help... its a very short one from magazine I guess...

Last edited by rinichan; 2012-05-19 at 06:11.
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Old 2012-05-19, 06:19   Link #4918
mystogan
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will someone help me look for CC's poem that I read somewhere 2-3 years ago...
it says something on the line "sleep"...
Cant find it... need help... its a very short one from magazine I guess...
searched for the poem you are looking for but could not find it, are you sure it's an official thing, if it's not then it's too difficult to get it
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Old 2012-05-19, 09:23   Link #4919
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searched for the poem you are looking for but could not find it, are you sure it's an official thing, if it's not then it's too difficult to get it
yes its an official thingy... one blogger or someone here before posted it here ( a scan and translation)... i just cant remember it... well ... where exactly...
I'd used the search tool as well*

Found it... I was looking at the wrong thread...




now looking for some translation of CC monologues from this album....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl7NdrU4N8E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sLz9XYMpI4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NarPzSQ49t0

and if you also mind the regret poems thingy did someone already translated them...
sorry I'm doing a look back right now... I'm excited at new Gaiden project...
I guess CC is not the geass giver in that tale...

Last edited by rinichan; 2012-05-19 at 09:39.
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Old 2012-05-19, 12:45   Link #4920
mystogan
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yes its an official thingy... one blogger or someone here before posted it here ( a scan and translation)... i just cant remember it... well ... where exactly...
I'd used the search tool as well*

Found it... I was looking at the wrong thread...




now looking for some translation of CC monologues from this album....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl7NdrU4N8E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sLz9XYMpI4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NarPzSQ49t0

and if you also mind the regret poems thingy did someone already translated them...
sorry I'm doing a look back right now... I'm excited at new Gaiden project...
I guess CC is not the geass giver in that tale...
well good thing you found it
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