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Old 2008-05-31, 14:41   Link #641
Dann of Thursday
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The name is too plain and obvious for me to really consider it, but anything is possible I suppose.

Hmm, those two do look a bit similar. And they are both voiced by Yukana? Well, I guess it doesn't matter if they look similar or anything since this is a completely different work. Curious though.
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Last edited by Dann of Thursday; 2008-05-31 at 15:39.
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Old 2008-05-31, 16:04   Link #642
demon_god04
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hm they have the same VA? I kinda had a feeling that I had heard the voice before when Tear sings the Fonic hyms

How C.C was hugging cheese-kun while talking to Lelouch now brings to mind how Tear wanted to cuddle up to Tokunaga to keep warm
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Old 2008-05-31, 20:48   Link #643
Elicit
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Yes, Yukana voices the both of them. If you look around on Youtube of videos with Tear's Japanese VA, you'd notice the similarities (although, C.C. is a bit more... "deeper" or "softer" in voice).
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Old 2008-05-31, 22:06   Link #644
Dann of Thursday
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I'll have to look this up. I doubt it means anything though. Maybe Taniguchi heard her in this role or she auditioned using a similar voice. Not sure how exactly that works.

The slight similarities in looks and attire are rather funny though
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Old 2008-06-01, 00:29   Link #645
Esper 28
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Dann, let me start off by apologizing. If I came across as crude earlier, I'm sorry. You have some good ideas and strong thoughts, but you need to learn to present them better like you did in this post. Seriously, dude, you should consider changing your posting habits so that it's all about quality, not about quantity. With that said, I am glad to reply to your ideas and opinions.

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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
I certainly agree that Charles is not anything like Arthur. He's more of the opposite really. Yet, I haven't seen all that much to suggest that C.C. personally wants to take him down. I've seen a few hints that this is what Marianne may want for her son though, which sort of makes her look rather cruel and manipulative for putting all this on her son. C.C.'s involvement with the American rebellion seems to suggest she wasn't thinking of dethroning anyone, much less Britannia which did not exist at that point. I suppose the fact that she appears to have been involved in rebellions and wars does suggest something though.
Honestly, I don't know much about C.C.'s role in the American rebellion. In truth, I would love for you, or anyone else, to perhaps give a brief summary of what her role was? I'd be curious to learn. You're definitely right, though, there's definitely something with her being present during war. Perhaps that motif is tied to the Geass being a type of weapon? Interesting ideas, either way.

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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
From the outline of the story, I'd agree that it's hard to read him. Despite that him causing all the perils that befell Gawain as making him appear to be more sinister than anything else, one has to wonder why he did all that. The entire thing seemed like a test I guess. Of course, if a lot of what happened to Lelouch was simply C.C. testing him, then things would not likely end on a good note with them.
Well, the poem suggests that the Green Knight was sent by Morgan le Faye to scare Guinevere which is an interesting tidbit that could get mulled over. Could it be suggesting that Marianne is some sort of Guinevere? Frankly, I have no idea, but it's definitely a case where the Green Knight's goal is to "test" Arthur's court. Though I wonder if we should substitute the word "test" for like, "bring about the downfall", because I think that Morgan le Faye was just trying to make Arthur and his knights fail, y'know? It really is an interesting topic and discussion could go on forever about it without any real conclusion unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
Why dethrone Charles though if that were the goal? What does she possibly gain out of it? If C.C. was someone like Morgan, it's also possible that the legends and history regarding whoever she was were not all that accurate.
Hmmm, it's a good question. Why would she want to dethrone Charles? I certainly can't answer that, y'know. Anything I would say would be pure conjecture and would have little to no foundation to stand on. But you're definitely right, it could definitely be a case that the legend doesn't necessarily fit the actual person. We see that all the time in history where a historical figure is portrayed to be like, awesome as hell, but it turns out they weren't really that great. I can't help but think of the episode of The Simpsons where Jebediah Springfield was proved to be a crook and a cheat by Lisa while he was previously hailed as a hero. If I recall correctly, at the end he was still thought of as a hero because that good ol' cliche where "people need their heroes".

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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
I suppose one very well could consider that true, though I'm still not entirely convinced that the whole point of this is that those two are working against one another. Most of Charles' actions do appear to be centered around the Geass and the whole plan he and V.V. have, but I'd think that Charles must get something out of all this. I suppose you could say becoming the leader of a country and coming to take control of 1/3 of the world and more would be his reward though. Of course, being simply a manipulator doesn't make C.C. look very good from any perpective.
Hmmm, Charles motives are unclear. We all know about the destroying gods thing, but perhaps he's in it for a more "realistic" goal? Perhaps he just wants to dominate the world? It's really impossible to say at the moment, I think. I'm sure that will get explained eventually...eventually.

Also, I don't think C.C.'s manipulation need necessarily be looked at as a negative thing. Perhaps she's manipulating Lelouch for the greater good? Of course...I guess when it's for the greater good, it stops being manipulation and starts becoming guidance. Certainly worth thinking over, I'd say.

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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
I'm also not convinced that C.C. and V.V. have been around for the same amount of time. This is just a feeling, but I think C.C. has actually been around for a lot longer. V.V. is certainly her enemy in R2, but I don't quite think that her wish has that much to do with V.V.'s plan. Also, back in season 1 C.C. didn't seem to regard V.V. as an enemy all that much. She seemed to regard him as an annoyance at best, but not like now. V.V. had never done anything to directly interfere with Lelouch and C.C. and thus make himself an enemy until the finale of season 1. Of course, since those ruins activating in 19 are the main cause for Lelouch's Geass going permanent, I suppose one could say V.V. was interefering there as well. I'm not sure if C.C. was aware entirely of what had happened, though her reaction in 22 does suggest she was expecting the Geass to go permanent yet not that soon.
Yeah, I agree that there is definitely an age difference between C.C. and V.V. Perhaps its their outward appearances that are the basis of my view on that. Also, I think it may be a bit of a generalization to say how C.C. views V.V. because there just hasn't been much said by either of them about the other. Also, I think C.C.'s mysterious ways should be taken into consideration. I wondering if maybe she's purposely downplaying V.V.'s involvement because she doesn't want to derail Lelouch's plans? Again, it's nearly impossible to say. Regardless, the relationship with C.C. and V.V. is a dynamic one that I look forward to learning more about.

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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
I suppose the main problem with C.C. at the moment is that she is keeping a lot from Lelouch and that makes her very questionable in her motives since actually telling Lelouch more could in fact help him quite a lot in what he has to do. I suppose the fact that C.C. is starting to be a little more forthcoming is a good sign, but she still is keeping a lot from him. I was a little surprised when Lelouch wasn't at all angry that she had kept the info on V.V. from him when it was clear she had known for a while.
Yeah, C.C. loves her secrets. Personally, I look at it like C.C. gives and holds information with a purpose. I suppose the roots for that would be from my like, conspiracy theory involving C.C., but I definitely think she tells Lelouch what he needs to know, when he needs to know, and not a moment earlier.

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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
That is a rather hard question to answer and mainly depends on one's own viewpoint. One could argue that all C.C. does is give the power, but that she has no control over what that person does with that power. For instance, all the people Mao killed as well as him going insane could be blamed partly on her since she gave him the Geass and such. Yet C.C. did attempt to avoid Mao becoming the way he became. She simplt failed in that regard though. With Mao, I certainly don't think she is not to blame because she is. I just don't put the blame squarely on her. Mao is somewhat responsible for his own actions even in his state of mind as is Lelouch.
Yeah, dude, the question is definitely a tricky one and you're right, perspective is critical when discussing it. For me, I look at C.C. and ask, "Why did she choose to give that person the Geass?" I don't want to delve too much into my thoughts because they'd be more fitting for the Philosophy thread, but I look at it a lot like electing a president. When the president gets elected and does a crap job, do you blame the president or do you blame the people who elected him? Ignoring some of the other factors like limited candidates and what-not, I tend to look to the people as the blame. This, of course, doesn't excuse the bad president, but his mistakes are an extension of the people's mistake. I find myself applying this train of thought to the Geass and to C.C.

Those are just my personal ideas and are in no way the right point of view! Like I said, totally more appropriate for the Philosophy thread.

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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
I don't do this with all my posts. And no I do not speak without completing a thought. That would be a rather idiotic thing to do. No, I don't often have people ignore me or look at me in the way you described either.
Well, I'm glad people don't ignore you or give you odd looks! But seriously, dude, definitely considering switching to a policy of quality over quantity. I think people will show you more respect. I already apologized for being rude before, but I do hope you consider what I'm saying. You've got some good insight, but you just need to take the time to share it with us properly.

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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Not to intrude, but I thought I'd bring up a few things.
Intrude?! Naw, man, open forum. A conversation that takes place in a thread is open to everyone to comment. If Dann and I wanted to discuss things that we didn't want anyone else to see, we'd do it in PMs. Besides, you make some really good points.

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If you look at what they stand for and what their empires stood for, they are polar opposites to the T. If you want to make an Arthurian comparison, you can do it more easily by comparing Lelouch to Arthur, Charles to the old Monarchy, C.C. to the Lady of the Lake, and Geass to the Sword Excalibur. Lady of the Lake, however, isn't much better than Morgan La Fey within the story as she is the one who raises the man who ultimately brings down Arthur. That being a story/myth/legend about destiny, it seems like she is the impartial weaver, so to say.
Hmmm... personally, I really dislike the Lelouch to Arthur comparison. Arthur's story isn't so much of his rise to power as it is him being a good king. I may be completely off base, but I recall Pendragon, Arthur's father, dying and then Arthur taking his place. Not that he lead a rebellion or anything. It was a case that Pendragon died and they needed a king because there was a power vacuum and that's when Arthur came out of the woodwork and filled the spot. I'm serious, though. My memory of the Arthur tale is really poor so I could be totally off, but I think that's how it goes.

However, keeping with your analogy, C.C. being the Lady of the Lake does fit well. She gave Arthur Excalibur and what-not, so, like, yeah. Could fit that way.

Trying to remember my original argument for the Green Knight, but I remember saying how Lelouch was kind of like Gawain. Gawain is Arthur's son and in the poem, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight proclaims to be the weakest of Arthur's sons, similar to the way as Charles deemed Lelouch to be the weakest. It was Gawain's desire to prove himself to Arthur that he took the challenge from the Green Knight and by the end of the poem, he's proven himself not to be weak, but he doesn't really come across as a badass, either. I should totally find the posts...

--- Elevator Music ---

Ah-hah, found them:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=144
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=146

Give'em a read and tell me what'cha think! I would love to hear some more opinions on it.

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I'm curious what you'd say if I were to compare Suzaku to the Green Knight. Especially given the information floating around that his abilities are not natural. Therein, much like the created Green Knight, one could argue that Suzaku was also created to challenge Lelouch.
I definitely think that's a fair comparison, but I do feel that it kind of diminishes Suzaku as a character. I've always liked the Suzaku as Lancelot character while Lelouch is the Gawain character. The two characters had a bit of a feud going between them, despite both being Arthur's knights, and eventually Lancelot beheads Gawain.

However, saying that Suzaku could be a Green Knight-like character is certainly valid based on the information we have now. This is definitely why I want you to give me your opinion on my earlier posts!

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Originally Posted by Var View Post
C.C.'s involvement in the American Revolution can swing any number of ways. For all we know, she could have been the one to change Benjamin Franklin's views into betraying the Americans. To little information to say for sure whether or not she acted against, for, or with no affiliation to the empire.
Wha?!?!?! Ben Franklin turned on the Americans?! Seriously, someone needs to fill me in. I try and try to read through the History thread in the forum, but I never manage to make much of a dent in the damn thing. Someone needs to make a comprehensive website or a Code Geass Wiki or something. Call it, "The Geass Project" or something awesome.
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Old 2008-06-01, 00:54   Link #646
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Hmmm... personally, I really dislike the Lelouch to Arthur comparison. Arthur's story isn't so much of his rise to power as it is him being a good king. I may be completely off base, but I recall Pendragon, Arthur's father, dying and then Arthur taking his place. Not that he lead a rebellion or anything. It was a case that Pendragon died and they needed a king because there was a power vacuum and that's when Arthur came out of the woodwork and filled the spot. I'm serious, though. My memory of the Arthur tale is really poor so I could be totally off, but I think that's how it goes.
It really depends on what interpretation of Arthurian legend you read; if I am not mistaken the original has him taking power after Pendragon's death (as a youth) and needing to prove himself (wherein he acquires Excalibur). His views are somewhat radical given the time period in that he is kindhearted and a benevolent ruler who cared for his people. Arthur never leads a rebellion, as he never has to, having acquired power by consequence, but he does have a war to defend it, and if I'm not mistaken, dies for it.

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However, keeping with your analogy, C.C. being the Lady of the Lake does fit well. She gave Arthur Excalibur and what-not, so, like, yeah. Could fit that way.
As the many things being discussed in this thread this is just a toss up to chance.

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Trying to remember my original argument for the Green Knight, but I remember saying how Lelouch was kind of like Gawain. Gawain is Arthur's son and in the poem, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight proclaims to be the weakest of Arthur's sons, similar to the way as Charles deemed Lelouch to be the weakest. It was Gawain's desire to prove himself to Arthur that he took the challenge from the Green Knight and by the end of the poem, he's proven himself not to be weak, but he doesn't really come across as a badass, either. I should totally find the posts...
Charles never deemed Lelouch the weakest, he did deem him weak or parasitic, but never explicitly stating the weakest. Though i do like the comparison between Gawain and Lelouch; the irony of it all, however tragic, is that Gawain is again being manipulated as it is not solely Lelouch's to pilot. It was eventually led to its death by that outside influence. In this case, I am comparing C.C. to Morgan in that she is the one who enables Gawain (piloting it) but then leads it to its destruction. A not to stretched parallel to the Arthurian happenings.

I think I should put this idea forth that the machines and their names played out a story for us in the first season, one that was somewhat displaced from their pilots.

What I mean by this is:
Gawain is introduced as a rather weak thing, it's attack may have been powerful but it was uncontrollable. It eventually returns as a true weapon but is now in the hands of Lelouch (the one to represent Gawain by your analogy) and C.C, which as I stated above fits Morgan. Following this, it and the Lancelot team up, and ultimately the Gawain falls at the end of S1 while the Lancelot remains. Suzaku defeats Lelouch. Lancelot defeats Gawain (not directly, of course).

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Ah-hah, found them:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=144
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=146

Give'em a read and tell me what'cha think! I would love to hear some more opinions on it.
I will when I find the time, but these things can be demanding. Perhaps tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Esper 28 View Post
I definitely think that's a fair comparison, but I do feel that it kind of diminishes Suzaku as a character. I've always liked the Suzaku as Lancelot character while Lelouch is the Gawain character. The two characters had a bit of a feud going between them, despite both being Arthur's knights, and eventually Lancelot beheads Gawain.

However, saying that Suzaku could be a Green Knight-like character is certainly valid based on the information we have now. This is definitely why I want you to give me your opinion on my earlier posts!
I do not think it diminishes his character, if anything it adds to the hopelessness of it. He is a hopeless character who strives for what is practically impossible. He did not need to be 'created' for the sole purpose of obstructing Lelouch, but under V.V.'s guidance and just random chance he did become a wall. There is a possibility, though, that Jeremiah could take that role, we'll have to see.

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Originally Posted by Esper 28 View Post
Wha?!?!?! Ben Franklin turned on the Americans?! Seriously, someone needs to fill me in. I try and try to read through the History thread in the forum, but I never manage to make much of a dent in the damn thing. Someone needs to make a comprehensive website or a Code Geass Wiki or something. Call it, "The Geass Project" or something awesome.
Its in there somewhere.
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Old 2008-06-01, 02:40   Link #647
Narona
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It really depends on what interpretation of Arthurian legend you read; if I am not mistaken the original has him taking power after Pendragon's death (as a youth) and needing to prove himself (wherein he acquires Excalibur). His views are somewhat radical given the time period in that he is kindhearted and a benevolent ruler who cared for his people. Arthur never leads a rebellion, as he never has to, having acquired power by consequence, but he does have a war to defend it, and if I'm not mistaken, dies for it.
If I recall correctly, I read two different books about that Legend (i don't know which one is the original one). In the first one, it was somewhat as you said about Uther and Arthur.

I will add that Arthur Pendragon is the son of Uther Pendragon and Igerne (wife of Gorlois, Le Duc de Cornouailles). Uther raped her... with the help of Merlin's Magic.

In the second one, it differs here about the first version. Uther made a deal with Merlin. In order to get Igerne, Uther has to give the baby to him just after arthur's birth. Uther has accepted, then refuted. During his chase of Merlin (who took the baby), he's killed by his enemies, but before that, he set up Excalibur in a rock.

In this version, Anna is the daughter of Igerne and Gorlois, and half sister of Arthur. She will become Morgane and have a son with Arthur (she drugged him), Mordred.

Last edited by Narona; 2008-06-01 at 02:51.
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Old 2008-06-01, 02:57   Link #648
Esper 28
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It really depends on what interpretation of Arthurian legend you read; if I am not mistaken the original has him taking power after Pendragon's death (as a youth) and needing to prove himself (wherein he acquires Excalibur). His views are somewhat radical given the time period in that he is kindhearted and a benevolent ruler who cared for his people. Arthur never leads a rebellion, as he never has to, having acquired power by consequence, but he does have a war to defend it, and if I'm not mistaken, dies for it.
Yeah, there are literally dozens of different interpretations of the Arthurian tradition. I'm most familiar with the writings of Sir Thomas Malory, but the internet has given me glimpses at some of the other Arthurian writings out there.

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Charles never deemed Lelouch the weakest, he did deem him weak or parasitic, but never explicitly stating the weakest. Though i do like the comparison between Gawain and Lelouch; the irony of it all, however tragic, is that Gawain is again being manipulated as it is not solely Lelouch's to pilot. It was eventually led to its death by that outside influence. In this case, I am comparing C.C. to Morgan in that she is the one who enables Gawain (piloting it) but then leads it to its destruction. A not to stretched parallel to the Arthurian happenings.

I think I should put this idea forth that the machines and their names played out a story for us in the first season, one that was somewhat displaced from their pilots.

What I mean by this is:
Gawain is introduced as a rather weak thing, it's attack may have been powerful but it was uncontrollable. It eventually returns as a true weapon but is now in the hands of Lelouch (the one to represent Gawain by your analogy) and C.C, which as I stated above fits Morgan. Following this, it and the Lancelot team up, and ultimately the Gawain falls at the end of S1 while the Lancelot remains. Suzaku defeats Lelouch. Lancelot defeats Gawain (not directly, of course).
You're right that Lelouch was never deemed "weakest," but I was just trying to draw a parallel between Gawain considering himself the weakest of Arthur's sons and Lelouch being call weak, though not the weakest, y'know. I just figured it was worthy of being noted.

And yeah, dude, I think you understood exactly what I was saying about the whole Gawain/Lancelot thing. I really like how you brought the Morgan comparison with how the Gawain mech requires both Lelouch and C.C. to pilot it. I think that fits really, really well. In the poem, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Gawain is entirely at the Green Knight's mercy, even when Gawain didn't know it. The Green Knight, assuming the guise of a normal man, takes Gawain in and does everything that medieval hospitality requests. Then at the end of the poem, Gawain must complete his end of the deal and let the Green Knight strike him. This dependency on the Green Knight is interesting and I think you've made a great comparison between that and the necessity to have C.C. in Gawain's cockpit.

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I will when I find the time, but these things can be demanding. Perhaps tomorrow.
I hear you. Sometimes I log on real quick and say to myself, "I'll just browse real quickly." By the time I'm done, an hour has gone by and I've completely lost track of what I had wanted to do.

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I do not think it diminishes his character, if anything it adds to the hopelessness of it. He is a hopeless character who strives for what is practically impossible. He did not need to be 'created' for the sole purpose of obstructing Lelouch, but under V.V.'s guidance and just random chance he did become a wall. There is a possibility, though, that Jeremiah could take that role, we'll have to see.
That is a really interesting take on Suzaku. I've never looked at Suzaku as "hopeless," but I definitely see how that fits. I've always kind of labeled him as the typical hero against all odds. I've always felt the Lancelot label fit him so well 'cause of that, too.

As an unrelated note...after I posted my last post, I was completely shocked at how frakkin' big it was! I had no idea it was that big while writing it. I should learn to be less wordy or something.
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Old 2008-06-01, 03:07   Link #649
Esper 28
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If I recall correctly, I read two different books about that Legend (i don't know which one is the original one). In the first one, it was somewhat as you said about Uther and Arthur.

I will add that Arthur Pendragon is the son of Uther Pendragon and Igerne (wife of Gorlois, Le Duc de Cornouailles). Uther raped her... with the help of Merlin's Magic.

In the second one, it differs here about the first version. Uther made a deal with Merlin. In order to get Igerne, Uther has to give the baby to him just after arthur's birth. Uther has accepted, then refuted. During his chase of Merlin (who took the baby), he's killed by his enemies, but before that, he set up Excalibur in a rock.

In this version, Anna is the daughter of Igerne and Gorlois, and half sister of Arthur. She will become Morgane and have a son with Arthur (she drugged him), Mordred.
As soon as I read your post, I remembered immediately that the version where Uther strikes a deal with Merlin is the Malory version. I was so positive, I went and found my book with the tale to confirm it. I really ought to read this thing over.

It makes me wonder, if the Arthurian tradition is, in fact, the key to the Code Geass story, where does C.C. fit in? I love how we're able to cobble together these amazing ideas, but it's so disgruntling to eventually hit a wall and go, "I just won't know until they tell me."

EDIT: By the way, I'm really sorry for the double post. I probably should've just edited the post above this one.

Last edited by Esper 28; 2008-06-01 at 03:08. Reason: Forgot to add something...
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Old 2008-06-01, 11:39   Link #650
Var
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That is a really interesting take on Suzaku. I've never looked at Suzaku as "hopeless," but I definitely see how that fits. I've always kind of labeled him as the typical hero against all odds. I've always felt the Lancelot label fit him so well 'cause of that, too.
Hero against all odds is something reserved for childish fantasy (though it can appear in more adult lit as well); it is most definitely not present in Arthurian legends. Lancelot can appear to be the 'hero' but he has his deep faults. Sleeping with Guenevere, killing Gawain, indirectly killing Arthur. Looked at it from the correct light; Lancelot was just as hopeless as the Green Knight. They were just consequences of fate and both were 'crated/raised' by something slightly less than human.

There are very few heroes who ever conquer everything, mostly because at that point they are not a hero in the traditional sense but more a god (Kira Yamato for a contemporary example). A hero must be capable of losing everything and, by Greek method, does lose everything to gain everything else. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is a good example
Spoiler for Slgihtly spoiler:

Code Geass has many of these 'hopeless' elements. The first and most obvious came with Euphemia and the SAR/Z. Suzaku is arguable but I'd call him hopeless because 'heroes against all odds' don't really exist... or remain heroes.

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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
If I recall correctly, I read two different books about that Legend (i don't know which one is the original one). In the first one, it was somewhat as you said about Uther and Arthur.

I will add that Arthur Pendragon is the son of Uther Pendragon and Igerne (wife of Gorlois, Le Duc de Cornouailles). Uther raped her... with the help of Merlin's Magic.

In the second one, it differs here about the first version. Uther made a deal with Merlin. In order to get Igerne, Uther has to give the baby to him just after arthur's birth. Uther has accepted, then refuted. During his chase of Merlin (who took the baby), he's killed by his enemies, but before that, he set up Excalibur in a rock.

In this version, Anna is the daughter of Igerne and Gorlois, and half sister of Arthur. She will become Morgane and have a son with Arthur (she drugged him), Mordred.
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Originally Posted by Esper 28 View Post
As soon as I read your post, I remembered immediately that the version where Uther strikes a deal with Merlin is the Malory version. I was so positive, I went and found my book with the tale to confirm it. I really ought to read this thing over.

It makes me wonder, if the Arthurian tradition is, in fact, the key to the Code Geass story, where does C.C. fit in? I love how we're able to cobble together these amazing ideas, but it's so disgruntling to eventually hit a wall and go, "I just won't know until they tell me."

EDIT: By the way, I'm really sorry for the double post. I probably should've just edited the post above this one.
In nearly every present interpretation there is some deal made with Merlin. The biggest disparity comes in where the Sword Excalibur comes from. Either its the lady or the stone.
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Old 2008-06-01, 23:22   Link #651
Dann of Thursday
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Dann, let me start off by apologizing. If I came across as crude earlier, I'm sorry. You have some good ideas and strong thoughts, but you need to learn to present them better like you did in this post. Seriously, dude, you should consider changing your posting habits so that it's all about quality, not about quantity. With that said, I am glad to reply to your ideas and opinions.

Honestly, I don't know much about C.C.'s role in the American rebellion. In truth, I would love for you, or anyone else, to perhaps give a brief summary of what her role was? I'd be curious to learn. You're definitely right, though, there's definitely something with her being present during war. Perhaps that motif is tied to the Geass being a type of weapon? Interesting ideas, either way.


Well, the poem suggests that the Green Knight was sent by Morgan le Faye to scare Guinevere which is an interesting tidbit that could get mulled over. Could it be suggesting that Marianne is some sort of Guinevere? Frankly, I have no idea, but it's definitely a case where the Green Knight's goal is to "test" Arthur's court. Though I wonder if we should substitute the word "test" for like, "bring about the downfall", because I think that Morgan le Faye was just trying to make Arthur and his knights fail, y'know? It really is an interesting topic and discussion could go on forever about it without any real conclusion unfortunately.

Hmmm, it's a good question. Why would she want to dethrone Charles? I certainly can't answer that, y'know. Anything I would say would be pure conjecture and would have little to no foundation to stand on. But you're definitely right, it could definitely be a case that the legend doesn't necessarily fit the actual person. We see that all the time in history where a historical figure is portrayed to be like, awesome as hell, but it turns out they weren't really that great. I can't help but think of the episode of The Simpsons where Jebediah Springfield was proved to be a crook and a cheat by Lisa while he was previously hailed as a hero. If I recall correctly, at the end he was still thought of as a hero because that good ol' cliche where "people need their heroes".


Hmmm, Charles motives are unclear. We all know about the destroying gods thing, but perhaps he's in it for a more "realistic" goal? Perhaps he just wants to dominate the world? It's really impossible to say at the moment, I think. I'm sure that will get explained eventually...eventually.

Also, I don't think C.C.'s manipulation need necessarily be looked at as a negative thing. Perhaps she's manipulating Lelouch for the greater good? Of course...I guess when it's for the greater good, it stops being manipulation and starts becoming guidance. Certainly worth thinking over, I'd say.



Yeah, I agree that there is definitely an age difference between C.C. and V.V. Perhaps its their outward appearances that are the basis of my view on that. Also, I think it may be a bit of a generalization to say how C.C. views V.V. because there just hasn't been much said by either of them about the other. Also, I think C.C.'s mysterious ways should be taken into consideration. I wondering if maybe she's purposely downplaying V.V.'s involvement because she doesn't want to derail Lelouch's plans? Again, it's nearly impossible to say. Regardless, the relationship with C.C. and V.V. is a dynamic one that I look forward to learning more about.



Yeah, C.C. loves her secrets. Personally, I look at it like C.C. gives and holds information with a purpose. I suppose the roots for that would be from my like, conspiracy theory involving C.C., but I definitely think she tells Lelouch what he needs to know, when he needs to know, and not a moment earlier.



Yeah, dude, the question is definitely a tricky one and you're right, perspective is critical when discussing it. For me, I look at C.C. and ask, "Why did she choose to give that person the Geass?" I don't want to delve too much into my thoughts because they'd be more fitting for the Philosophy thread, but I look at it a lot like electing a president. When the president gets elected and does a crap job, do you blame the president or do you blame the people who elected him? Ignoring some of the other factors like limited candidates and what-not, I tend to look to the people as the blame. This, of course, doesn't excuse the bad president, but his mistakes are an extension of the people's mistake. I find myself applying this train of thought to the Geass and to C.C.

Those are just my personal ideas and are in no way the right point of view! Like I said, totally more appropriate for the Philosophy thread.



Well, I'm glad people don't ignore you or give you odd looks! But seriously, dude, definitely considering switching to a policy of quality over quantity. I think people will show you more respect. I already apologized for being rude before, but I do hope you consider what I'm saying. You've got some good insight, but you just need to take the time to share it with us properly.
I tend to vary depending on the subject matter and current mood. Right now for instance, I've had a relapse in a sense after the preview for episode 9.

I don't quite remember all the details, but I believe it was in one of these little extras on the DVDs. Anyway, C.C. had a conversation with Lelouch on how inaccurate the history books were or something like that. Anyway, she made it clear that she personally knew both Washington and Franklin and revealed that Franklin betrayed the rebels for the title of Earl. C.C. attributed this to him being much too kind for his own good. Washington ended up getting killed in the end because of all this. I personally think she was contracted with Washington since that seems more fitting for her since he became the leader of the rebels and all.

Not sure myself. C.C. and Marianne appear to get along from their conversations and they appear to have some sort of agreement which makes me wonder if Marianne either had a contract with C.C. or promised C.C. that she could form a contract with her son. I fear what Lelouch's reaction would be to such a thing.

Well, she personally never showed any interest in Charles from what I saw. Now, it could be that dethroning him could actually be Marianne's goal. The only reason I can think for that is that she may want to stop whatever he is doing or make sure her son becomes the new leader (I really hope this isn't it myself since it would just feel so lame for him to take such a position). And that is a good example with Jebediah of what I meant. If she was someone like Morgan, maybe she wasn't quite as evil as she may have seemed and Arthur was actually not as "good" as he has been portrayed.

Well, world domination seems to be something he's pursuing though he never seemed quite that zealous about it as some others we have seen. Well, killing Gods must serve some purpose that benefits V.V. and perhaps Charles as well.

Well, Marianne did want C.C. to guide him. Of course, she retorted that such a thing wasn't her job and she was just going to watch. The greater good might not always be the best thing though. Look at the movie Hot Fuzz.

I'd think informing Lelouch he has someone who might go against him who is working with his father and is like her would be something to tell him. I sort of got the feeling she wasn't expecting him to interfere directly with them though. Of course, her whole thing in 25 where she said she didn't know and Lelouch believed her wasn't exactly a good sign since she obviously did know. The lying really needs to stop. FO pretty much made it clear they are definitely enemies now who cannot tolerate each other's existence.

I fear she hasn't told him because telling him would turn him against her. I still fear that will happen. She seems to keep as much info from him as possible. I suppose she only told him about V.V. though because it was something he probably should know about.

Well, I think she picks whoever she finds since those with potential don't seem to be all over the place (though it seems we have quite a few right now, don't we?). She did try to ease his pain after his Geass went permanent, but ended up making things worse than they already were. What makes her look bad was that Mao killing all these people wasn't as much a problem as him turning away from the world and thus losing his right to the contract. I suppose the years have lost C.C. her sense of mercy and the ability to trust other people though.

Meh, I'm really only like this here. I do post here more than anywhere else though.
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Old 2008-06-01, 23:24   Link #652
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wow i will stuff here later but I try to find my post on mythology Good posts though
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Old 2008-06-01, 23:25   Link #653
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I don't know if I can expect anything positive regarding C.C. from a Kallen fan. I can already see what the posts will talk about.
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Old 2008-06-01, 23:27   Link #654
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I don't know if I can expect anything positive regarding C.C. from a Kallen fan. I can already see what the posts will talk about.
this is true although i compare CC to Athena. while i am still writing my essay on Lelouch being Constantine. its taking a while since i still have one class and work ><
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Old 2008-06-01, 23:29   Link #655
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Yeah, one of the things I've seen before.
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Old 2008-06-01, 23:34   Link #656
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I don't know if I can expect anything positive regarding C.C. from a Kallen fan. I can already see what the posts will talk about.
Just because someone favors some pairing in some other discussion/debate doesn't mean it will transfer over here. For instance, my reply had nothing bashing C.C. but simply an elaboration on points I found to be interesting. They may be negative points in your eyes but it has nothing to do with 'favorite pairs' or whatnot. This is a discussion about a character, one that is touching on myth that has interesting implications.
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Old 2008-06-02, 00:05   Link #657
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Hero against all odds is something reserved for childish fantasy (though it can appear in more adult lit as well); it is most definitely not present in Arthurian legends. Lancelot can appear to be the 'hero' but he has his deep faults. Sleeping with Guenevere, killing Gawain, indirectly killing Arthur. Looked at it from the correct light; Lancelot was just as hopeless as the Green Knight. They were just consequences of fate and both were 'crated/raised' by something slightly less than human.

There are very few heroes who ever conquer everything, mostly because at that point they are not a hero in the traditional sense but more a god (Kira Yamato for a contemporary example). A hero must be capable of losing everything and, by Greek method, does lose everything to gain everything else. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is a good example
Spoiler for Slgihtly spoiler:

Code Geass has many of these 'hopeless' elements. The first and most obvious came with Euphemia and the SAR/Z. Suzaku is arguable but I'd call him hopeless because 'heroes against all odds' don't really exist... or remain heroes.
There isn't much I can say to this, other than I agree with you. I think I was being too general before when I labeled Suzaku as a "hero against all odds". I meant more like he's the idealistic character who's trying to single handedly change things, seemingly through violence. The whole thing where he wants to become First Knight and then take over Area 11, etc., etc.

I also agree with you on Lancelot. I never meant to imply that Lancelot, or Suzaku for that matter, are faultless heroes. They certainly have their faults, but those faults are what make them real characters. It's funny you mention Kira. I'm a huge Gundam fan and I just think Kira is the perfect example of a "god-like" character. Perhaps it would be fair to compare Suzaku to Amuro and Lelouch to Char? I better not because that could open a whole 'nother can of worms and, besides, this is a C.C. thread and I haven't thought of where I'd place her in a Gundam analogy.

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In nearly every present interpretation there is some deal made with Merlin. The biggest disparity comes in where the Sword Excalibur comes from. Either its the lady or the stone.
Ah, I see, I see. Obviously, you're definitely better versed in the Arthurian legend than myself. If it counts for anything, the book I have has Arthur pulling the sword from a stone.

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I don't quite remember all the details, but I believe it was in one of these little extras on the DVDs. Anyway, C.C. had a conversation with Lelouch on how inaccurate the history books were or something like that. Anyway, she made it clear that she personally knew both Washington and Franklin and revealed that Franklin betrayed the rebels for the title of Earl. C.C. attributed this to him being much too kind for his own good. Washington ended up getting killed in the end because of all this. I personally think she was contracted with Washington since that seems more fitting for her since he became the leader of the rebels and all.
Hmm, very interesting. I am going to have to scour through the History thread to learn more. Thank you for the synopsis, though. It's definitely peeked my interest.

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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
Not sure myself. C.C. and Marianne appear to get along from their conversations and they appear to have some sort of agreement which makes me wonder if Marianne either had a contract with C.C. or promised C.C. that she could form a contract with her son. I fear what Lelouch's reaction would be to such a thing.
I dunno, we only hear one side of the conversation, y'know?

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If she was someone like Morgan, maybe she wasn't quite as evil as she may have seemed and Arthur was actually not as "good" as he has been portrayed.
I like that idea. I like it a lot.

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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
Well, Marianne did want C.C. to guide him. Of course, she retorted that such a thing wasn't her job and she was just going to watch. The greater good might not always be the best thing though. Look at the movie Hot Fuzz.
Hot Fuzz was such an awesome movie. Timothy Dalton was better in that then either of his two Bond films.

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I fear she hasn't told him because telling him would turn him against her. I still fear that will happen. She seems to keep as much info from him as possible. I suppose she only told him about V.V. though because it was something he probably should know about.
Definitely. C.C. certainly withholds information because she know it would do more harm than good, specifically cause Lelouch to demand some answers.

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Well, I think she picks whoever she finds since those with potential don't seem to be all over the place (though it seems we have quite a few right now, don't we?). She did try to ease his pain after his Geass went permanent, but ended up making things worse than they already were. What makes her look bad was that Mao killing all these people wasn't as much a problem as him turning away from the world and thus losing his right to the contract. I suppose the years have lost C.C. her sense of mercy and the ability to trust other people though.
I like to tell myself that C.C. is very careful about who she gives the Geass power, too. Of course, if we went strictly by what we see in the anime, she seemingly gives Lelouch the Geass without much information about him. Though, I personally believe that this was a ruse and that she already knew who he was and what he wanted. So far in the series, though, this is relatively unexplored, but I think they'll talk about it eventually.

And when you said that C.C. has lost "her sense of mercy and the ability to trust other people" I couldn't help but sing one of the songs Queen did for Highlander in my head. "Who wants to live forever..."
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Old 2008-06-02, 00:19   Link #658
Dann of Thursday
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I dunno, we only hear one side of the conversation, y'know?

I like that idea. I like it a lot.

Hot Fuzz was such an awesome movie. Timothy Dalton was better in that then either of his two Bond films.

Definitely. C.C. certainly withholds information because she know it would do more harm than good, specifically cause Lelouch to demand some answers.

I like to tell myself that C.C. is very careful about who she gives the Geass power, too. Of course, if we went strictly by what we see in the anime, she seemingly gives Lelouch the Geass without much information about him. Though, I personally believe that this was a ruse and that she already knew who he was and what he wanted. So far in the series, though, this is relatively unexplored, but I think they'll talk about it eventually.

And when you said that C.C. has lost "her sense of mercy and the ability to trust other people" I couldn't help but sing one of the songs Queen did for Highlander in my head. "Who wants to live forever..."
Actually, the DS game featured those conversations, but with us hearing what the other side was saying. Most of these are with Marianne except for 19 which is with both Marianne and V.V. apparently and the one from 12 which is with some mysterious third person.

I like it as well, though I'm not sure if we'd ever go that much into it. And this depends on her being Morgan at all.

Yeah, I love that movie as well. The entire thing was great for me. Shaun of the Dead was another favorite of mine with many of the same actors.

She did say in 24 that she would tell him eventually about why she knew about the garden which means she will tell him about Marianne at sometime, though I can't help but wonder if it won't be at the time where it's too late for Lelouch to change his mind at the end about not being manipulated. Or V.V. could pop in and reveal everything to try and mess with both of them.

It seems that she had some sort of thing with Marianne and that earlier she was watching over Lelouch and Nunnally for her, though it is unknown if she knew he had potential. I still wonder if the whole assasination was a way of maturing his potential for Geass. That would really make Marianne and C.C. look sinister and cruel. She probably knew all about him and was just waiting.

I love that movie. The first one at least.
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Old 2008-06-02, 12:52   Link #659
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i am still writing my essay on Lelouch being Constantine. its taking a while since i still have one class and work ><
interesting

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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
She did say in 24 that she would tell him eventually about why she knew about the garden which means she will tell him about Marianne at sometime, though I can't help but wonder if it won't be at the time where it's too late for Lelouch to change his mind at the end about not being manipulated. Or V.V. could pop in and reveal everything to try and mess with both of them.

It seems that she had some sort of thing with Marianne and that earlier she was watching over Lelouch and Nunnally for her, though it is unknown if she knew he had potential. I still wonder if the whole assasination was a way of maturing his potential for Geass. That would really make Marianne and C.C. look sinister and cruel. She probably knew all about him and was just waiting.
C.C. mentioned Marianne in r2(I don't remember which ep). it seems as if C.C. knew Marianne before her death. I do also think that Marianne told C.C. to take care of Lelouch as at the begining of series 1 C.C. appeared in Lelouch's flashback(or something like this) and maybe that's why C.C. choose Lelouch to have this geass but maybe Marianne and C.C. were very close friends and after Marianne's death C.C. decided to give Lelouch the geass as she thought that he would take revenge for Marianne.
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Old 2008-06-02, 14:14   Link #660
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Geez, I'm gone for like 1 day and there's a gazillion posts a mile wide all over the place , I'm going to have to read all of it some other time but,


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C.C. mentioned Marianne in r2(I don't remember which ep). it seems as if C.C. knew Marianne before her death. I do also think that Marianne told C.C. to take care of Lelouch as at the begining of series 1 C.C. appeared in Lelouch's flashback(or something like this) and maybe that's why C.C. choose Lelouch to have this geass but maybe Marianne and C.C. were very close friends and after Marianne's death C.C. decided to give Lelouch the geass as she thought that he would take revenge for Marianne.

I'd think the same thing, the flashback is very interesting, I've read somewhere that C.C met Lelouch and even interacted with him at a certain point, but Lelouch doesn't remember anything about it.
C.C can't choose who she gives Geass to, however it is noted that the Emperor chooses his wives that are capable Geass users which could mean Lelouch was compatible from the start and why Marianne wanted Lelouch to have Geass when it was his time.

Marianne might have wanted Lelouch to overthrow his father and make the world a better place?
I mean there is war everywhere, and if Brittannia just halted, It might become better
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