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Old 2008-07-21, 07:43   Link #1441
Daniani
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Some of the times she nearly died didn't really need to happen, what did it teach him in Ep.1 of R2 that the slew of corpses all around didn't already teach him?
It could be jus to shock him. We can make many assumptions about that. Think yourself...

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Also, when did he ever see her as a pawn? I think the biggest boon to their relationship was the fact that he never treated her as a pawn but an equal, if anything, she's more of his pawn now because he is her master.
When he was talking to mao, he didn't say she was a pawn, but iirc "she is all mine, I even know her true name yada yada..."

+ The fact he called her Immortal witch and say shut up (or something in this line) to her many times. For me, imo "most of time", he didn't see her as anything than a partner, a thing...


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Her wish was granted this episode, she realized that she'd been loved. With her wish granted her power and C.C. are gone, now she can experience love from when she most desired it. The only problems being, death flag, and the fact that she is mentally retarded. People don't just grow up in a day
Imo her true wish is not granted yet. . But I hope you are right (you know why, and sorry if i am pessimistic)
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Old 2008-07-21, 07:46   Link #1442
Var
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It could be jus to shock him. We can make many assumptions about that. Think yourself...
And again, what did it do that the slew of corpses and living people being burned alive not do that her death would have? He looked far more shocked and troubled when they started burning people.

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Originally Posted by Daniani View Post
When he was talking to mao, he didn't say she was a pawn, but iirc "she is all mine, I even know her true name yada yada..."

+ The fact he called her Immortal wish and say shut up (or something in this line) to her many times. For me, imo "most of time", he didn't see her as anything than a partner, a thing...
Funny thing is, that this is what C.C.xLelouch fans have always been shoving in my face as evidence that she isn't just a pawn. Oh... how the world works.

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Imo her true wish is not granted yet.
Fine, I think otherwise. I can't very well beat you into submission... yet.
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Old 2008-07-21, 07:50   Link #1443
Avira
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@Avira why have you deleted your post? It was an interesting view...
Okay I'll repost it^^


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Originally Posted by Witacume View Post
Exactly, why would he say "at least smile as you die" if you don't want the person to die. This makes no sense. thats why i see it as foreshadow. Again this is just an idea.
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Originally Posted by Tokkan View Post
Yeah pretty much, Lelouch wasn't compelling her to live, he was saying she should die with no regrets.
I think he wanted her to live; he merely meant that if C.C. had to die then at least happily, not like she was going to do at that moment.
I don't see it as a foreshadow.
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Old 2008-07-21, 07:50   Link #1444
Esper 28
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In saying that her true wish is to be loved, I agreed with you. Her death flag is not from her old wish, it is from how the show has played on her immortality and how Lelouch talked to her at the pivotol moment. You don't just shove immortality in a person's face over and over when someone dies to make sure we understand. Or do you think they just killed her over and over (while protecting Lelouch) for shits and giggles?
I don't think I'm seeing C.C. the same way you're seeing her. I understand what you're saying, that they've repeatedly shown her being killed multiple times and, yeah, she was impervious to death, but I don't think that equates to her having to die.

I think this is an opportunity to show how Lelouch isn't a bad person. A chance for him to show how much he cherishes life. Now that C.C. isn't immortal, she's fragile, and I honestly believe that Lelouch is going to put it upon himself to protect her. Just as Lelouch was C.C.'s savior in this episode, C.C. will become Lelouch's redemption or savior in episodes to come. I think they'll help each other and they both need to be alive for that.

As an afterthought...did anyone else get a feeling that C.C. may've known what she was doing when she let Charles embrace her? It could've been a case that she was purposely letting Charles do whatever it was he was doing (Removing her Code, yes?) and then pushed away at the right moment, effectively removing her immortality and what-not. Maybe she didn't want to die right then, but she wanted the possibility of death. After all, the whole conversation about life without death is just an experience and that you need the knowledge of death for life to matter. Just an idea I was tossin' around in me wee little head.
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Old 2008-07-21, 07:50   Link #1445
Daniani
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And again, what did it do that the slew of corpses and living people being burned alive not do that her death would have? He looked far more shocked and troubled when they started burning people.
It could even be an idiotic twist to make her fall in the arms of Lelouch because the Britannian army was here. If not, the kiss would not have been possible. <<< See, it's a stupid view of this scene, but it can work.

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Funny thing is, that this is what C.C.xLelouch fans have always been shoving in my face as evidence that she isn't just a pawn. Oh... how the world works.
I'm not a CC fan, not when it comes to romance. And I have to deal every sunday with a CC fan, my little brother

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Fine, I think otherwise. I can't very well beat you into submission... yet.
The thing is, I really hope you are right about the pairings. But I will say that I don't want cc to die either. I also wasn't a shirley fan, but I'm not happy about her story and death.
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Old 2008-07-21, 07:54   Link #1446
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I don't think I'm seeing C.C. the same way you're seeing her. I understand what you're saying, that they've repeatedly shown her being killed multiple times and, yeah, she was impervious to death, but I don't think that equates to her having to die.
I didn't say she would have to die by some ordained law, but that, in how it has been used within the plot, is not the best of indicators. There's never been a reason for her to get killed over and over, we already knew she couldn't die. Jeremiah's recurring death is a different story as that is about his will to live through everything. For C.C. it was the opposite, she couldn't die but she didn't want to live.

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I think this is an opportunity to show how Lelouch isn't a bad person. A chance for him to show how much he cherishes life. Now that C.C. isn't immortal, she's fragile, and I honestly believe that Lelouch is going to put it upon himself to protect her. Just as Lelouch was C.C.'s savior in this episode, C.C. will become Lelouch's redemption or savior in episodes to come. I think they'll help each other and they both need to be alive for that.
That is my impression as well, just that, given how its been put forther, her redemption of him will come at a high price. Not to mention that, as it stands, he's going to be caring for her as a father, not a lover.
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Old 2008-07-21, 08:07   Link #1447
Esper 28
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I didn't say she would have to die by some ordained law, but that, in how it has been used within the plot, is not the best of indicators. There's never been a reason for her to get killed over and over, we already knew she couldn't die. Jeremiah's recurring death is a different story as that is about his will to live through everything. For C.C. it was the opposite, she couldn't die but she didn't want to live.
Hmm. So, you're saying that she doesn't have to die? The way I was reading your other posts, it sounded like you were saying that she's got a track record for dying and the next obvious choice in the pattern if for her to kick the bucket. I'm totally with you if you're saying there's a chance she may die, but she doesn't necessarily have to.

I'm saying she doesn't have to die, and you're saying she doesn't have to live. I think both are completely valid statements at this point.


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That is my impression as well, just that, given how its been put forther, her redemption of him will come at a high price. Not to mention that, as it stands, he's going to be caring for her as a father, not a lover.
I never said anything pertaining to how Lelouch and C.C. will care for one another, y'know. I mean, he could love her in a father/daughter way, a brother/sister way, or a boy/girl way. I think any of those options are valid and I refuse to close any of those doors right now. Which would I prefer to see? Either brother/sister or boy/girl. I don't really care for the idea that he'll be a father figure to her. I think they've been on equal terms up until now and Lelouch will have trouble treating her as an inferior, even if C.C. goes to default their relationship like that thanks to her memory wipe.

And I agree that it will come at a high price, but what? I have a feeling you would say that C.C.'s death will be that price. While I've no way of saying you're wrong to think that, I can certainly hope you're wrong. In truth, I don't know what it's going to cost either of them at the end 'cause there's much more at work here than just the two of them.

I will go on record as saying I hope for a happy ending for C.C., whatever that may be.
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Old 2008-07-21, 08:17   Link #1448
Avira
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As an afterthought...did anyone else get a feeling that C.C. may've known what she was doing when she let Charles embrace her? It could've been a case that she was purposely letting Charles do whatever it was he was doing (Removing her Code, yes?) and then pushed away at the right moment, effectively removing her immortality and what-not. Maybe she didn't want to die right then, but she wanted the possibility of death. After all, the whole conversation about life without death is just an experience and that you need the knowledge of death for life to matter. Just an idea I was tossin' around in me wee little head.
Maybe she planed the whole thing all along...you never know

What is a person's "Code"? I didn't understand that
Immortality? Memories? Life?
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Old 2008-07-21, 08:20   Link #1449
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Originally Posted by Avira View Post
Maybe she planed the whole thing all along...you never know

What is a person's "Code"? I didn't understand that
Immortality? Memories? Life?
"Code" appears to be the immortality and powers held by V.V. and C.C..
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Old 2008-07-21, 08:20   Link #1450
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Hey everyone!
Finally saw episode 15 today!

So here's what I think of C.C. after reading a few opinions on the forums here.
First off, C.C. said that her true wish was to die but her reason for wanting to die was influenced by her innability to find true love (because of the geass) which could have corrupted her social standing, thus leading to her many struggles.

When Lelouch told C.C. that he would make her smile until the last moment of her life, C.C. decided to live, for Lelouch. This shows that C.C. doesn't want to die, but be freed of her past, and to find a life worth living.

Now that C.C. has lost her memories, I think it will be possible for a MAJOR character development, potentially leading to C.C. becoming what she was before she lost her memories. Either that, or she will end up as happier person and maybe fall in love with Lelouch.
If you consider the fact that, since she is now in an era that she is unfamiliar with, has none of her troubling memories, and finally has Lelouch, who is devoted to making her happy, the possibility that she will advance into a very well developed character shows amazing potential.

I understand why people may not like the new C.C. but I certainly think this opportunity for a character development, as well as a change in the story will be a very interesting process.
The theme of the anime was somewhat set at "living on your own until you die. Being lonely and hateful." This is obvious in C.C.'s case considering her traumatic past.

Spoiler for Code Geass:


Well, these are my speculations.
I must say though, I love how this anime makes me think.
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Old 2008-07-21, 08:45   Link #1451
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Hmm. So, you're saying that she doesn't have to die? The way I was reading your other posts, it sounded like you were saying that she's got a track record for dying and the next obvious choice in the pattern if for her to kick the bucket. I'm totally with you if you're saying there's a chance she may die, but she doesn't necessarily have to.
Yes, I'm not saying that she's entirely slated for death, but that now, of all times, that possibility has made a pretty high jump on the probability scale. Her track record of being killed is more just an allusion, hence why I compared her to Jeremiah. One does not die because of his will to live, the other does not die because she is unable to, even when seeking it. With this show being notorious for twists and recurring elements rearing their head at the worst moment, I would not be half surprised if she died after finding happiness.

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I'm saying she doesn't have to die, and you're saying she doesn't have to live. I think both are completely valid statements at this point.
Agreed. I'm just following my personal intuition and the general flow of this show.

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I never said anything pertaining to how Lelouch and C.C. will care for one another, y'know. I mean, he could love her in a father/daughter way, a brother/sister way, or a boy/girl way. I think any of those options are valid and I refuse to close any of those doors right now. Which would I prefer to see? Either brother/sister or boy/girl. I don't really care for the idea that he'll be a father figure to her. I think they've been on equal terms up until now and Lelouch will have trouble treating her as an inferior, even if C.C. goes to default their relationship like that thanks to her memory wipe.
I was not referring specifically to your post, just continuing the thought. C.C. was for Lelouch, through much of S1, a mother figure. Lelouch now has a ten-year old on his hands that he has to protect, from where I see a paternal bond form more than anything. I can also see a sibling bond form, but I do not see lovers because, simply, the slave girl is not an adult. She is a child, she needs a protector not a lover. Treating someone as your child or thing to protect, is not belittling it. It is simply another form of compassion and love. If anything, I'd argue it is what a child like this slave girl needs more than anything else.

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And I agree that it will come at a high price, but what? I have a feeling you would say that C.C.'s death will be that price. While I've no way of saying you're wrong to think that, I can certainly hope you're wrong. In truth, I don't know what it's going to cost either of them at the end 'cause there's much more at work here than just the two of them.
Not quite, to me, I think the price will be her memories and power coming back. If that does occur then I can see her dieing, but this time, with a sense of completion in her existence. This is, assuming, that the old C.C. comes back. If she does not, then I really don't know what to guess at. If anything, what I want is a family end, Lelouch, ChiChi, Kallen. We know that Kallen became good friends with C.C., another form of love, so I can see her also caring for ChiChi.

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I will go on record as saying I hope for a happy ending for C.C., whatever that may be.
What defines a happy ending, though? She could die and still have a happy ending. I think she already had her happy ending, she realized that someone cared for her.
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:07   Link #1452
bran
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ok there is a discussion about cc's wish on another forum
and some people though what happened in the first season contradicts both of her wishes
if her wish was to be loved it should have been granted with Mao's love
if her wish was to die Mao couldn't kill her cause he loved her and she left
later when Mao appeared he was ready to cut cc into pieces and grant her death wish but instead giving him imortality she killed him
i could understand that if the reason she didn't give her code to mao was because he went crazy
but i know that the contract with lelouch can't stop her from giving her code to another because she could give it to charles
so what is cc's true wish
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:10   Link #1453
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I was not referring specifically to your post, just continuing the thought. C.C. was for Lelouch, through much of S1, a mother figure. Lelouch now has a ten-year old on his hands that he has to protect, from where I see a paternal bond form more than anything. I can also see a sibling bond form, but I do not see lovers because, simply, the slave girl is not an adult. She is a child, she needs a protector not a lover. Treating someone as your child or thing to protect, is not belittling it. It is simply another form of compassion and love. If anything, I'd argue it is what a child like this slave girl needs more than anything else.
Yes, she may be a ten-like-old now, but what is important is that what she may develop into. Unless somehow C.C. comes back

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Not quite, to me, I think the price will be her memories and power coming back.
Memories and powers doesn't necessary have to be tied together. Even if she lost her powers, what is there to stop her memories from returning? You may bring up the incident with Lelouch, but that is because he hasn't lost his powers.

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What defines a happy ending, though? She could die and still have a happy ending. I think she already had her happy ending, she realized that someone cared for her.
My definition is that if a certain character is happy, then it is a happy ending for the character.
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:15   Link #1454
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Yes, she may be a ten-like-old now, but what is important is that what she may develop into. Unless somehow C.C. comes back
That growth can't feasibly be crammed into whatever is left of this season, it would take years for her to grow in maturity. People don't just wake up one day and say 'I'm an adult starting today' it takes years at a time to get that far.

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Memories and powers doesn't necessary have to be tied together. Even if she lost her powers, what is there to stop her memories from returning? You may bring up the incident with Lelouch, but that is because he hasn't lost his powers.
She had to give up her memories to lose the power, it is illogical to believe that they are not connected. If one returns then so must the other, this isn't some fairy tale. Things come with a cost, if you take back your payment then you lose what you gained.

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My definition is that if a certain character is happy, then it is a happy ending for the character.
So then, she can die and still have a happy ending?
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:18   Link #1455
Esper 28
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Maybe she planed the whole thing all along...you never know

What is a person's "Code"? I didn't understand that
Immortality? Memories? Life?
I've always been a firm believer in the notion that C.C. is always aware of what she's doing and I think the last episode is no exception. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if her memory loss was because she held on to Charles for a second too long or something like that. Still, I think the very idea that she didn't want to kill herself, but wanted the ability to die, is an interesting one.

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Yes, I'm not saying that she's entirely slated for death, but that now, of all times, that possibility has made a pretty high jump on the probability scale. Her track record of being killed is more just an allusion, hence why I compared her to Jeremiah. One does not die because of his will to live, the other does not die because she is unable to, even when seeking it. With this show being notorious for twists and recurring elements rearing their head at the worst moment, I would not be half surprised if she died after finding happiness.
When I read this, it made me wonder. We're talking about reoccurring themes that seem to flow through the show and specific characters have specific themes that seemed to be stapled to them.

What if C.C.'s theme is life? Clearly, she's been unable to die throughout the show, regardless of her feelings on the subject. What if now that she can die, she still doesn't. I think this theme can be looked at from your perspective and mine. You could look at the theme of life and say, "Life must be concluded with death, thus making one living." Or I could look at it and say, "Life is about living with the knowledge that the end will eventually come." Both of these views require mortality, obviously, but one implies that C.C.'s theme of life will end within the confines of the show while the other suggests that it will outlive the show. Hm, I think it all depends on how they want it to end. C.C. could stand as a symbol for hope at the very end, or she could show that all life ends and that's part of living.

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Agreed. I'm just following my personal intuition and the general flow of this show.
Nobody can fault you for that, man. Everyone interprets things differently.

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I was not referring specifically to your post, just continuing the thought. C.C. was for Lelouch, through much of S1, a mother figure. Lelouch now has a ten-year old on his hands that he has to protect, from where I see a paternal bond form more than anything. I can also see a sibling bond form, but I do not see lovers because, simply, the slave girl is not an adult. She is a child, she needs a protector not a lover. Treating someone as your child or thing to protect, is not belittling it. It is simply another form of compassion and love. If anything, I'd argue it is what a child like this slave girl needs more than anything else.
I know! I'm sorry, I didn't mean to seem angry at you or anything. I knew you were just going with the flow of ideas.

But I think this is a huge difference in how we perceive C.C. I've always considered C.C. to be on equal footing to Lelouch, not so much a mother figure. I've seen her as his partner and no, I do not mean that with any sort of romantic connotation. But seriously, I've looked at her as his partner in the sense that when things go tough, she was there to support him, but at the same time, he supported her. Granted, it did feel rather one-sided where C.C. was supporting Lelouch more so than he was supporting her, but that's why this new development is so key. It's giving Lelouch a chance to return the favor.

And I agree that lovers is unlikely with C.C.'s current state. You're right to say that she seems to have a child mentality now and that would make for a poor lover relationship. However, I think it's fair to say that while Lelouch may not be able to see her in a love relationship, children often develop crushes on those who protect them when they're not family related. Yes, a guardian-type relationship could develop, but they're not family and I don't think Lelouch would ever pretend that they are. Would you say it's possible for C.C. to develop a type of crush on Lelouch?

I think that if it is a case where C.C. forms some sort of feelings for Lelouch, I wonder what kind of impact that will have if C.C. regains her memories. I'm assuming, of course, that if she gets her memories back, she also retains the new memories she builds with Lelouch.

Either way, I agree that there won't be a love relationship between the two of them with C.C. in the state she's in. At least, I don't think there'll be a mutual relationship. I still think it's possible for C.C. to develop feelings, while in her child mindset.

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Not quite, to me, I think the price will be her memories and power coming back. If that does occur then I can see her dieing, but this time, with a sense of completion in her existence. This is, assuming, that the old C.C. comes back. If she does not, then I really don't know what to guess at. If anything, what I want is a family end, Lelouch, ChiChi, Kallen. We know that Kallen became good friends with C.C., another form of love, so I can see her also caring for ChiChi.
I can't really argue what you're saying here. It's sound logic, I think. If C.C. gets her memories back and remembers her time spent with Lelouch, then I think she could die with a sense of completion. In fact, I think this could tie into the next part...

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What defines a happy ending, though? She could die and still have a happy ending. I think she already had her happy ending, she realized that someone cared for her.
Like I was saying, yeah, her dying could make for a happy ending. But living could also make for a happy ending. Going back with what I said earlier, if the series ends and she's still alive, she must have a sense of hope to go along with it. However, if she dies with a feeling of accomplishment, I think that would be just as good.

So, either she lives with hope or she dies with completion. I think those are two fair endings for the character, don't you?

As a completely off topic mention... When you mentioned how you wanted a family ending, I couldn't help but think of them making a spin-off show where Lelouch and his harem was living in somewhere together and you get one of those romantic comedies where all the girls are vying for the main character's affection and stuff. Just the idea made me laugh. Those shows all have their obligatory hot spring scenes...oh man, so funny. But not funny in a "they should totally do this" way, funny is a "the person who suggests it should be shot" kind of way.
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:22   Link #1456
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She had to give up her memories to lose the power, it is illogical to believe that they are not connected. If one returns then so must the other, this isn't some fairy tale. Things come with a cost, if you take back your payment then you lose what you gained.
Then I am illogical . For me, Geass (same as lelouch'one) and geass mark of immortality are different. There is no proof that the a geass mark works in the same way as geass.
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:25   Link #1457
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Then I am illogical . For me, Geass (same as lelouch'one) and geass mark of immortality are different. There is no proof that the a geass mark works in the same way as geass.

And I think you don't always have to pay a cost to gain something, even in real life.
Everything costs something and nothing is free. That's kind of how the world works. I'm not saying you're completely wrong with what you're thinking, but I think it's naive to say that you can gain anything without losing SOMETHING. That's not to say the thing you need to give up actually matters, but like they say, nothing is free.
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:26   Link #1458
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That growth can't feasibly be crammed into whatever is left of this season, it would take years for her to grow in maturity. People don't just wake up one day and say 'I'm an adult starting today' it takes years at a time to get that far.
I'm inclined to believe that she is not that young, I feel she may have some exponential mental development. But no, I don't have any proof for that, just my intuition. I get what you're saying and I do agree. Whilst I do agree, something doesn't sit right...

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She had to give up her memories to lose the power, it is illogical to believe that they are not connected. If one returns then so must the other, this isn't some fairy tale. Things come with a cost, if you take back your payment then you lose what you gained.
It is late, and this is hurting my brain I have to agree with you on this too.

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So then, she can die and still have a happy ending?
Yes, I do. As tragic as it may be, if one is happy, I believe it is a happy ending.
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:29   Link #1459
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Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper 28 View Post
Everything costs something and nothing is free. That's kind of how the world works. I'm not saying you're completely wrong with what you're thinking, but I think it's naive to say that you can gain anything without losing SOMETHING. That's not to say the thing you need to give up actually matters, but like they say, nothing is free.
I didn't say you could gain anything without losing something. But even if you stay in your room without doing anything, you gain memories of what you are doing. You give "time", right, but I consider "time" as "nothing", because you can't control time.

And some people can give you presents, and that doesn't mean you lost something for that. You can also help people without gaining anything in return.
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:34   Link #1460
Esper 28
Akira
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Side 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniani View Post
I didn't say you could gain anything without losing something. But even if you stay in your room without doing anything, you gain memories of what you are doing. You give "time", right, but I consider "time" as "nothing", because you can't control time.

And some people can give you presents, and that doesn't mean you lost something for that. You can lso help people whiout gaining anything in return.
Well, I hate to keep throwing out these old sayings, but, "Time is money." Seriously, though. To say that time is nothing, is silly, I think. You've only got a certain amount of time and when you do something that takes time, you're giving up that amount of time. Time for a human is finite, not infinite.

And those presents still cost the other person something, they weren't free. Also, if you look at it from your perspective, receiving the present puts you under some obligation to either give them a thank you card or, when the time comes, get them a present, or, at the very, very least, requires you to tell them thank you. If you choose not to do the above, you could very well cost yourself a friend that was kind enough to give you a present or you may never get yourself a present again. You see? Everything costs something, it all depends on how much importance you put on that thing.

In the case of the present, simply saying the words, "Thank you" may seem like nothing, but it's still costing you something.
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