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Old 2008-06-24, 18:25   Link #2121
m1thril
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Well Suzaku was assigned to Schneizel for the European campaign and the the three Knight of Rounds were assigned to Schneizel again in China. I conceed that he may have made some sort of deal with Schneizel, I can actually see Schneizel promising Suzaku some concessions in return for supporting his bid for the throne when the time is right. What really gets me is that Suzaku has not exactly been shown to have any plan at all though.
ahh true true...but then again we do not know the majority of LL's plan either until it is after the fact..we will just have to wait and see
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:27   Link #2122
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post
its a matter of opinion and consensus. If all japanese people wanted to fight on but 1 kid didnt whow as the son of the emperor then he has no right to kill his dad.

However we know little about the actual war but some scenes. In the anime we were not show A bombs being dropped so i doubt it had the pressure as it did in our time.
Lelouch mentioned that the rebellion was more active in Area 11 because it surrendered when Japan was not completely defeated. So if anything Suzaku may have caused more casualties by killing his dad and forcing Japan to surrender.

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Originally Posted by m1thril View Post
ahh true true...but then again we do not know the majority of LL's plan either until it is after the fact..we will just have to wait and see
We usually have something to speculate on though, we don't really have anything with Suzaku.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:29   Link #2123
wtfftw
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Originally Posted by m1thril View Post
sit·u·a·tion Audio Help /ˌsɪtʃuˈeɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sich-oo-ey-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. manner of being situated; location or position with reference to environment: The situation of the house allowed for a beautiful view.
2. a place or locality.
3. condition; case; plight: He is in a desperate situation.
4. the state of affairs; combination of circumstances: The present international situation is dangerous.
5. a position or post of employment; job.
6. a state of affairs of special or critical significance in the course of a play, novel, etc.
7. Sociology. the aggregate of biological, psychological, and sociocultural factors acting on an individual or group to condition behavioral patterns.
[Origin: 1480–90; < ML situātiōn- (s. of situātiō). See situate, -ion]

as you can see...similar situations do not necessarily need to be similar in all aspects. i am referring to definition #3 or #4 while you are referring to #7
ok I dont really know anymore what this part of our discussion was about my apology for that. Its like 1.28 here so im like half awake^^. But i think the discussion we had was a good one

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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Lelouch mentioned that the rebellion was more active in Area 11 because it surrendered when Japan was not completely defeated. So if anything Suzaku may have caused more casualties by killing his dad and forcing Japan to surrender.
So basically a large part of japan went down without actually fighting?

im gonna just rewatch season 1 cuz this stuff is important^^
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:32   Link #2124
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haha yeah i kind of forgot too...we diverged too much from our main point o.0
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:32   Link #2125
Orga777
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
I was just throwing an idea out there, fact of the matter is that if the Britannian government were receptive to the idea of change, then the Black Rebellion would have been a giant wake up call that their current way of managing the areas needed to be revised. People do not try a coup just for the fun of it, they do so when there are enough that are discontented with their rulers. I was suggesting that Suzaku could have use his position as the Knight of Seven, which was respected as one of the Emperor's closest knights, to propose atleast a gradual change. Perhaps not right away for Area 11 but for another Area to use as a model, atleast something to farther his goals.
But you see, he very well could have proposed gradual change, we don't know that he didn't. The thing is, he is an Eleven, Knight or not. He has no political pull, so any Britannian politician isn't going to listen to him since we know they often accuse him of wanting things done because he is one of them. They aren't going to listen to him yet, and especially if he has no political power and even less when after a coup. You see, right now Britannia doesn't want to change anything and the only way Suzaku can do anything about that is wait till he can do something to change their minds. He may be respected in the Military, but what about in teh political system? Probably not.

Quote:
Well Suzaku was assigned to Schneizel for the European campaign and the the three Knight of Rounds were assigned to Schneizel again in China. I conceed that he may have made some sort of deal with Schneizel, I can actually see Schneizel promising Suzaku some concessions in return for supporting his bid for the throne when the time is right. What really gets me is that Suzaku has not exactly been shown to have any plan at all though.
But this show follows Lelouch more than it does Suzaku. We may not even know Suzaku's plans, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have one.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:37   Link #2126
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
But you see, he very well could have proposed gradual change, we don't know that he didn't. The thing is, he is an Eleven, Knight or not. He has no political pull, so any Britannian politician isn't going to listen to him since we know they often accuse him of wanting things done because he is one of them. They aren't going to listen to him yet, and especially if he has no political power and even less when after a coup. You see, right now Britannia doesn't want to change anything and the only way Suzaku can do anything about that is wait till he can do something to change their minds. He may be respected in the Military, but what about in teh political system? Probably not.

But this show follows Lelouch more than it does Suzaku. We may not even know Suzaku's plans, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have one.
My view is that it would not really change even if he becomes the Knight of One, he would still be held back by the fact that he is an Eleven. The Knight of Seven is obviously still a well respected position, it's not that Suzaku does not have any political pull, he just does not know how to use it. Having friends in high places and respect in the Military is also a political weapon.

We don't have to completely know his plans but we should atleast see some hint.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:43   Link #2127
Orga777
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
My view is that it would not really change even if he becomes the Knight of One, he would still be held back by the fact that he is an Eleven. The Knight of Seven is obviously still a well respected position, it's not that Suzaku does not have any political pull, he just does not know how to use it. Having friends in high places and respect in the Military is also a political weapon.
None of the Knights we have had some screen time with seem to have any political power, and one of them is Knight of Three. If the third in line doesn't have any, why would Suzaku? They are pretty much military commanders, not political.

If he becomes the night of One, he can actually be heard from as more than an Eleven. He is pretty much the number one Knight in the entire kingdom and definitely the most trusted under the emperor for reaching that position. People would listen if he wants to change some things.

Quote:
We don't have to completely know his plans but we should atleast see some hint.
Ah, but you see, we do have a hint of what he wants to do. The thing with Suzaku is that he doesn't go into excruciating detail, criticize every single move he makes, or have Fail Safe Plan #537 like Lelouch does. He thinks on a smaller scale and less into the detail. He knows what he wants, he just needs to obtain it. Just because he doesn't think as deeply as Lelouch (very few CAN) doesn't mean he doesn't know what he wants or doesn't have a plan. That is why comparing him to Lelouch with their plans I don;t think works. They think too differently.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:48   Link #2128
wtfftw
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
My view is that it would not really change even if he becomes the Knight of One, he would still be held back by the fact that he is an Eleven. The Knight of Seven is obviously still a well respected position, it's not that Suzaku does not have any political pull, he just does not know how to use it. Having friends in high places and respect in the Military is also a political weapon.

We don't have to completely know his plans but we should atleast see some hint.
This is also my thing with Suzaku the point is he has a network now.

Also an anime should give hints at some points in certain scenes.

For example

Hajime no Ippo character works alot with boats lifting hint to pointing out he has some background where his strength comes from

Claymore Clare has the flash of the nr1 claymore terese in her and shows potential later on

If they want to show that suzaku cares for the japanese people with his i dont want war. Then he shoudl show irritation when japanese people are being mistreated and initial goals /objectives/idea's to reach a japan which he will be governor for

but instead i when reminded of his dad he goes completely EMO and nuts, its like he is a psycho. He keeps on fight killing people in other countries. ZERO is the only on his mind and stuff.

Thats my whole beef with him

Suzaku needs a Lacus or euphie badly to even out his stereotypical character that only shows power

anyway n8 guys im off

nice discussion^^
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:51   Link #2129
Terrestrial Dream
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Then WHAT the hell are you complaining about? The same thing would have happened.
His father was an ass and yet Suzaku still regrets doing it. So what is your point?
My point that him murdering his father was wrong which was what I have been trying to say.
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And Suzaku said he wants to help people and yet you dispute that. You have an interesting double-standard.
When did I dispute that? Suzaku is trying change an entire nation to his view without the proper consent of the people. On the other hand Lelouch is different he thinks that what he is doing is better for Nunally is because of their past experience.
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Then he never truly understood his sister who said right in his face that his methods are wrong.
Later on he did learn... Later on as in R2 that is... after Nunnally pretty much told him he was wrong.
Hey at least Lelouch changed and it still does not change the fact that he is fighitng for better cause.
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The difference is that he believes in a cause, not that he is right or perfect.
Well I know,but you restated what I said!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by what I said
Suzaku is doing what he is doing because he think he is just and correct.
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Originally Posted by what you said
WRONG. Suzaku is doing it because he thinks the cause is just and correct
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Does he have a choice?
Yes gtfo of the army, so simple! If he really does hate war he should stop fighting.
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
For the one millionth time, Suzaku has no political pull at all. That whole thing was Schneizel's plan. And they weren't going to absorb the CF, just become allies with them due to an arranged marriage.
Yeah I know that, it is just that Suzaku did not protest or tried to argue against Schnezial. Not even slight hesitation of his action. Also they might be allies on the outside but we all know that it will be Britannia that would control Chinese Federation.
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Then you are going with a double standard there. Lelouch is at least just as selfish as Suzaku. Except Suzaku doesn't use people like they are toys and then toss them away.
The difference is that I think Lelouch has a better reason to fight unlike Suzaku. Both might be selfish but Lelouch's reason are more justified imo.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:57   Link #2130
Orga777
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My point that him murdering his father was wrong which was what I have been trying to say.
His father was ready to throw his country to an enemy they had no chance to beat and would have been wiped out. Remember also he was a young child when he did that, he probably didn;t even understand the world that well either and just wanted the fighting to stop. He still regrets it, not that he doesn't think it didn;t happen or anything like that.
Quote:
When did I dispute that? Suzaku is trying change an entire nation to his view without the proper consent of the people. On the other hand Lelouch is different he thinks that what he is doing is better for Nunally is because of their past experience.
Or he used that as his reason to hunt down teh Royal Family and find out who killed his mother.

Quote:
Hey at least Lelouch changed and it still does not change the fact that he is fighitng for better cause.
Why is Lelouch's cause any better than Suzaku's?

Quote:
Yes gtfo of the army, so simple! If he really does hate war he should stop fighting.
Then how can he change anything if he does that?

Quote:
Yeah I know that, it is just that Suzaku did not protest or tried to argue against Schnezial. Not even slight hesitation of his action. Also they might be allies on the outside but we all know that it will be Britannia that would control Chinese Federation.
Why would he? This was a step towards peace. Corrupt Chinese or not.

Quote:
The difference is that I think Lelouch has a better reason to fight unlike Suzaku. Both might be selfish but Lelouch's reason are more justified imo.
Can you explain why you think that? I think Suzaku is jsut as justified as lelouch is really.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:57   Link #2131
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
None of the Knights we have had some screen time with seem to have any political power, and one of them is Knight of Three. If the third in line doesn't have any, why would Suzaku? They are pretty much military commanders, not political.

If he becomes the night of One, he can actually be heard from as more than an Eleven. He is pretty much the number one Knight in the entire kingdom and definitely the most trusted under the emperor for reaching that position. People would listen if he wants to change some things.

Ah, but you see, we do have a hint of what he wants to do. The thing with Suzaku is that he doesn't go into excruciating detail, criticize every single move he makes, or have Fail Safe Plan #537 like Lelouch does. He thinks on a smaller scale and less into the detail. He knows what he wants, he just needs to obtain it. Just because he doesn't think as deeply as Lelouch (very few CAN) doesn't mean he doesn't know what he wants or doesn't have a plan. That is why comparing him to Lelouch with their plans I don;t think works. They think too differently.
Military commanders still command a certain degree of political power, because they have armies at their command. Regardless, their opinions are still heard because the defence of the Empire are in their hands, moreso when they are counted among the Emperor's closest men and women. Jeremiah was also excersising his political leverage in his attempt, on the behalf of the purist faction, to keep the Elevens from joining the military.

If they haven't accepted Suzaku by now then it is unlikely he will ever be viewed as anything more then an Eleven even if he is the Knight of One. The only difference is that he would be higher on the totem pole but he is still "only a Knight".

That is the very reason why Suzaku is unlikely to succeed, it is politics you have to think several moves ahead and have contingency plans. Lelouch is more suited to changing Britannia from within and Suzaku is more suited to fighting them head on.
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Old 2008-06-24, 19:02   Link #2132
Orga777
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Military commanders still command a certain degree of political power, because they have armies at their command. Regardless, their opinions are still heard because the defence of the Empire are in their hands, moreso when they are counted among the Emperor's closest men and women. Jeremiah was also excersising his political leverage in his attempt, on the behalf of the purist faction, to keep the Elevens from joining the military.
But you see, I don't think that is how it is here. If Suzaku had power in government affairs, he would have done something.

Quote:
If they haven't accepted Suzaku by now then it is unlikely he will ever be viewed as anything more then an Eleven even if he is the Knight of One. The only difference is that he would be higher on the totem pole but he is still "only a Knight".
Except now the Knight has political power. They will have no choice but to really listen to him, and if he makes friends in the Royal Family (Schneizel comes to mind as well as Nunnally) and they help him out, people may very well change their views. He can't do that right now though due to his lack of power.

Quote:
That is the very reason why Suzaku is unlikely to succeed, it is politics you have to think several moves ahead and have contingency plans. Lelouch is more suited to changing Britannia from within and Suzaku is more suited to fighting them head on.
I know, which makes things so ironic in the situations they are in and makes it more interesting. The thing is though, Suzaku isn't stupid, I am sure he knows how to run things in what would suffice to run an Area. He may not be as suited as Lelouch (which is fact) but he is sufficient.
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Old 2008-06-24, 19:06   Link #2133
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Except now the Knight has political power. They will have no choice but to really listen to him, and if he makes friends in the Royal Family (Schneizel comes to mind as well as Nunnally) and they help him out, people may very well change their views. He can't do that right now though due to his lack of power.
I don't think that's the case, nobody really respected Suzaku even after he got knighted, saying it was only because Euphy had the hots for him. I don't think him making friends in the political arena will really change anyone's opinion.
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Old 2008-06-24, 19:09   Link #2134
Orga777
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I don't think that's the case, nobody really respected Suzaku even after he got knighted, saying it was only because Euphy had the hots for him. I don't think him making friends in the political arena will really change anyone's opinion.
That depends on what happens in the Royal Family though. You see, the difference between Euphie and Schneizel is that Euphie's position was for show and she had limited power. Schneizel DOESN'T. Schneizel has shown he has a lot of power and a lot of pull within the political realm. If he helps Suzaku out, don't doubt that people wouldn't listen.
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Old 2008-06-24, 19:46   Link #2135
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But you see, I don't think that is how it is here. If Suzaku had power in government affairs, he would have done something.

Except now the Knight has political power. They will have no choice but to really listen to him, and if he makes friends in the Royal Family (Schneizel comes to mind as well as Nunnally) and they help him out, people may very well change their views. He can't do that right now though due to his lack of power.

I know, which makes things so ironic in the situations they are in and makes it more interesting. The thing is though, Suzaku isn't stupid, I am sure he knows how to run things in what would suffice to run an Area. He may not be as suited as Lelouch (which is fact) but he is sufficient.
Jeremiah tried to change the Honoury Britannian system which means he had to have had some power politically. Suzaku is atleast several ranks above Jeremiah, or rather is Knight of Seven position is, so Suzaku should have some political power.

The Knight of One position may afford him more power, but if they still did not respect him and viewed him as an Eleven, then even as the Knight of One he would not be able to affect the changes he wants. The Knight of One isn't an all powerful position like the Emperor, he may be able to govern any area he wants but it was mentioned by several characters that it is beyond the bounds of a governor's power to affect the type of changes Suzaku is looking for.

Well Suzaku has so far been portrayed as indecisive when making decisions, so I don't find him to be suited to be a leader.
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Old 2008-06-24, 19:52   Link #2136
Terrestrial Dream
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Or he used that as his reason to hunt down teh Royal Family and find out who killed his mother.
Or both.
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Why is Lelouch's cause any better than Suzaku's?
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Can you explain why you think that? I think Suzaku is jsut as justified as lelouch is really.
Because during episode 7 Lelouch realized that he is fighting for the sake of others as well.
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Then how can he change anything if he does that?
Like he is making much change anyway.


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Why would he? This was a step towards peace. Corrupt Chinese or not.
Remember the original argument was that Suzaku does not care about common people. And by doing this he is ignoring the common people.

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Except now the Knight has political power. They will have no choice but to really listen to him, and if he makes friends in the Royal Family (Schneizel comes to mind as well as Nunnally) and they help him out, people may very well change their views. He can't do that right now though due to his lack of power..
Now when you say knight do you mean the knight of one or all the rounds in general?
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Old 2008-06-24, 20:02   Link #2137
Orga777
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Jeremiah tried to change the Honoury Britannian system which means he had to have had some power politically. Suzaku is atleast several ranks above Jeremiah, or rather is Knight of Seven position is, so Suzaku should have some political power.
Actually, this isn't completely accurate. You see, after Clovis was killed, there was a lack of leadership. Jeremiah had the idea to usurper Bartley and blame him for what happened and he seized power as acting Consul (similar to what Guiliford did in R2, except Jeremiah was out for himself, and not the good of Britannia.)

That is the difference there. Suzaku hasn't been in a position to take command yet in the absence of the governing party.

Quote:
The Knight of One position may afford him more power, but if they still did not respect him and viewed him as an Eleven, then even as the Knight of One he would not be able to affect the changes he wants. The Knight of One isn't an all powerful position like the Emperor, he may be able to govern any area he wants but it was mentioned by several characters that it is beyond the bounds of a governor's power to affect the type of changes Suzaku is looking for.
But that doesn't stop him from trying, and he would still be able to at least make life easier on Elevens in the mean time while he begins changing things.

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Well Suzaku has so far been portrayed as indecisive when making decisions, so I don't find him to be suited to be a leader.
Not this again...

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Because during episode 7 Lelouch realized that he is fighting for the sake of others as well.
And Suzaku isn't?
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Like he is making much change anyway.
He is doing what he can under the situations he is in.

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Remember the original argument was that Suzaku does not care about common people. And by doing this he is ignoring the common people.
But that isn't TRUE.

Quote:
Now when you say knight do you mean the knight of one or all the rounds in general?
Knight of One. Guess I forgot the one there...<.<

Last edited by Orga777; 2008-06-24 at 20:29. Reason: changed something
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Old 2008-06-24, 20:44   Link #2138
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Well Suzaku has so far been portrayed as indecisive when making decisions, so I don't find him to be suited to be a leader.
Suzaku is a soldier, he does what he's being told to do.. He does not think strategy like Lelouche does and countless times he loses to Lelouche due to Suzaku's stubborness.

I think between the 1st Season and 2nd Season, Suzaku has been portrayed more negatively than before.

Hiding Lelouch's sister and then using her to trick Lelouche is a pretty dirty trick.

Suzuku was definitely the winner in Season 1, like all shows eventually his righteousness will be he's downfall betraying his own people to suit the aggressor is not the right way to bring about peace and end the hostility.
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Old 2008-06-24, 20:46   Link #2139
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Suzuku was definitely the winner in Season 1, like all shows eventually his righteousness will be he's downfall betraying his own people to suit the aggressor is not the right way to bring about peace and end the hostility.
Darth Vader, anyone?
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Old 2008-06-24, 20:49   Link #2140
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Darth Vader, anyone?
Not even remotely. One was corrupted by fear, the other took up the 'bad' side by his own will on 'good' intentions.
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