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Old 2008-06-24, 20:49   Link #2141
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Actually, this isn't completely accurate. You see, after Clovis was killed, there was a lack of leadership. Jeremiah had the idea to usurper Bartley and blame him for what happened and he seized power as acting Consul (similar to what Guiliford did in R2, except Jeremiah was out for himself, and not the good of Britannia.)

That is the difference there. Suzaku wouldn't do something like that.

But that doesn't stop him from trying, and he would still be able to at least make life easier on Elevens in the mean time while he begins changing things.

Not this again...
I forgot about that, been too long since R1. Well Suzaku was put incharge of the SAZ under Nunnally, so the Knight of Rounds can't be completely without any political power. I still stand by the point that high ranking military officials more often then not are also politicians by neccessity. The Knights of Rounds are still the Emperor's closest aids one of the highest and most respected rank someone can achieve. I find it hard to believe that they do not have any political pull at all.

Well, Suzaku has not been trying all that hard up to now. With Zero gone from Area 11 and Nunnally as governor I doubt he will have a better chance then now to make things abit easier for the Elevens.

I really don't have anything new to add to that matter so lets just agree to disagree on that matter.
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Old 2008-06-24, 20:50   Link #2142
Orga777
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Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
Suzaku is a soldier, he does what he's being told to do.. He does not think strategy like Lelouche does and countless times he loses to Lelouche due to Suzaku's stubborness.
Suzaku has also beaten Lelouch many times due to Lelouch's stubbornness as well though.

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Hiding Lelouch's sister and then using her to trick Lelouche is a pretty dirty trick.
Woah now... It wasn't Suzaku that hid Nunnally. It was the Emperor. As for the trick, yeah, but hey, I would expect that from Lelouch too. Suzaku just doesn't play nice as much any more.

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Suzuku was definitely the winner in Season 1, like all shows eventually his righteousness will be he's downfall betraying his own people to suit the aggressor is not the right way to bring about peace and end the hostility.
Eh, I don't think that is true for Suzaku though. He doesn't see himself as the epitome of good, he just believes in what he is doing, and that is all anyone can ask of someone.

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Originally Posted by demon_god04
I forgot about that, been too long since R1. Well Suzaku was put incharge of the SAZ under Nunnally, so the Knight of Rounds can't be completely without any political power. I still stand by the point that high ranking military officials more often then not are also politicians by neccessity. The Knights of Rounds are still the Emperor's closest aids one of the highest and most respected rank someone can achieve. I find it hard to believe that they do not have any political pull at all.
Well, if they did have pull, they have an interesting way of showing it in the anime...<.<

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Well, Suzaku has not been trying all that hard up to now. With Zero gone from Area 11 and Nunnally as governor I doubt he will have a better chance then now to make things abit easier for the Elevens.
We don't know that he WON'T. He might have been ordered to protect Schneizel while he was in China so that can pull him away from doing something right away. I see us getting a good amount of Suzaku in the next few episodes (mostly because of captured Kallen) after that, we may actually get a good idea at what he wants done.
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Old 2008-06-24, 20:50   Link #2143
orangejuicetang
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Hiding Lelouch's sister and then using her to trick Lelouche is a pretty dirty trick.
Though to be fair, you have to realize that Nunually volunteered to be the governor of her own free will and no one forced her to go.
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Old 2008-06-24, 20:54   Link #2144
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Though to be fair, you have to realize that Nunually volunteered to be the governor of her own free will and no one forced her to go.
Suzaku never hid her. That was V.V. and the Emperor's doing, I think. But the having him talk to her? That could be considered low, but you have to realize, he was trying to figure out if Lelouch's memories of Zero had returned. If he responded positively to Nunnally in front of Suzaku, he'd be screwed. If he responded negatively, though, Suzaku wouldn't know, but Nunnally would be hurt.

That's why Lelouch is lucky that Rolo used his power to help him.
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Old 2008-06-24, 20:58   Link #2145
vision33r
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Though to be fair, you have to realize that Nunually volunteered to be the governor of her own free will and no one forced her to go.
What does Nunally volunteering to be governor has anything to do with the trick Suzuku pulled off? Suzuku took a low jab by using her to try to test whether Lelouche's memory came back.. it was a dirty trick and a pretty good one.

You do realize she's nothing more than a puppet, the emperor has that old hag watching and manipulating her.
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Old 2008-06-24, 20:59   Link #2146
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Well, if they did have pull, they have an interesting way of showing it in the anime...<.<

We don't know that he WON'T. He might have been ordered to protect Schneizel while he was in China so that can pull him away from doing something right away. I see us getting a good amount of Suzaku in the next few episodes (mostly because of captured Kallen) after that, we may actually get a good idea at what he wants done.
That's like saying that they have an interesting way of showing that Suzaku truely wanted to change things from within...

Like with Suzaku we have not seen them excerise much power, or put into a position where they would need to. With the exception of the execution order and Suzaku in charge of the SAZ I guess we just don't know how much authority they possess. Although personally like I said being the personal aids of the most powerful man in Britannia must afford them some authority.

I guess we can wait until the next few episodes before we can really get into this then. I have my thoughts on the matter but am perfectly willing to give Suzaku the benefit of the doubt and wait for him to have a chance to act.
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Old 2008-06-24, 21:00   Link #2147
Orga777
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Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
What does Nunally volunteering to be governor has anything to do with the trick Suzuku pulled off? Suzuku took a low jab by using her to try to test whether Lelouche's memory came back.. it was a dirty trick and a pretty good one.
I hope you don't hold that against him though. When Lelouch/Zero is involved, I think Suzaku understands that he has to fight dirty. I don't see it as a problem.

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You do realize she's nothing more than a puppet, the emperor has that old hag watching and manipulating her.
She still has some power, and she is still acting governor of the region. Whether she is a puppet or not is yet to be seen IMO.

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Originally Posted by demon_god04
That's like saying that they have an interesting way of showing that Suzaku truely wanted to change things from within...
Boo! Hiss! Get off the stage!
Quote:
Like with Suzaku we have not seen them excerise much power, or put into a position where they would need to. With the exception of the execution order and Suzaku in charge of the SAZ I guess we just don't know how much authority they possess. Although personally like I said being the personal aids of the most powerful man in Britannia must afford them some authority.
Some may not be enough here. As for Suzaku being in charge of the SAZ, that was only because Nunnally asked him to. She is governor after all. She can assign positions as she sees fit still.

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I guess we can wait until the next few episodes before we can really get into this then. I have my thoughts on the matter but am perfectly willing to give Suzaku the benefit of the doubt and wait for him to have a chance to act.
That is all I can ask anyone. Give Suzaku the benefit of the doubt and wait and see.
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Old 2008-06-24, 21:04   Link #2148
vision33r
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
I forgot about that, been too long since R1. Well Suzaku was put incharge of the SAZ under Nunnally, so the Knight of Rounds can't be completely without any political power. I still stand by the point that high ranking military officials more often then not are also politicians by neccessity. The Knights of Rounds are still the Emperor's closest aids one of the highest and most respected rank someone can achieve. I find it hard to believe that they do not have any political pull at all.

Well, Suzaku has not been trying all that hard up to now. With Zero gone from Area 11 and Nunnally as governor I doubt he will have a better chance then now to make things abit easier for the Elevens.
Knight of Rounds are not the Emperor's strategists, they are merely his "Knights" or tools for war and destruction.

They are considered Elite guards or Captains, not exactly Generals as you see that they usually go into the battlefields rather than command the troops from HQ.

None of the Knights of Round are in a position to question the Emperor or any royal family, they are to protect and serve them.
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Old 2008-06-24, 21:07   Link #2149
prototype_sky
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Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller View Post
Because usually, though you have provided a good example with the Civil Rights Movement, Orga, violence through rebellion is usually the only way a) they are carried out or b) people think they will succeed. There have been failures...but here, well, using violence has certainly worked in Lelouch's favour. Suzaku, contrasting, has gotten virtually nowhere.
After episode 8 of R2 this claim is no longer valid. If suzaku didn't have that high status in britannia that exodus would've been another blood bath like back in episode 21 of R1
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Old 2008-06-24, 21:09   Link #2150
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Originally Posted by prototype_sky View Post
After episode 8 of R2 this claim is no longer valid. If suzaku didn't have that high status in britannia that exodus would've been another blood bath like back in episode 21 of R1
The claim is still valid as Suzaku still hasn't accomplished anything, while Zero has.
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Old 2008-06-24, 21:12   Link #2151
m1thril
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Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
Knight of Rounds are not the Emperor's strategists, they are merely his "Knights" or tools for war and destruction.

They are considered Elite guards or Captains, not exactly Generals as you see that they usually go into the battlefields rather than command the troops from HQ.

None of the Knights of Round are in a position to question the Emperor or any royal family, they are to protect and serve them.
the KoR are like Faith from Gundam Seed..they can take command if they see the need to.

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Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post

Because during episode 7 Lelouch realized that he is fighting for the sake of others as well.
Like he is making much change anyway.
more like this is another excuse for his rebellion...dont you find it convenient that he just realizes that he is fighting for the sake of others as soon as nunally owned him twice in a row with her 'save me suzaku' and the SAZ?
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Old 2008-06-24, 21:16   Link #2152
orangejuicetang
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What does Nunally volunteering to be governor has anything to do with the trick Suzuku pulled off? Suzuku took a low jab by using her to try to test whether Lelouche's memory came back.. it was a dirty trick and a pretty good one.
My bad. I thought you meant that the dirty trick was that Suzuku forced Nunually to become to Japan, and I simply meant to that no one forced her. I misunderstood your post.

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The claim is still valid as Suzaku still hasn't accomplished anything, while Zero has.
Actually, now that I think about it, has Zero actually achieved any benefits or gains for the Japenese, or are they still in pretty much the same situation as the beginning of S1. And I mean the average Japenese, person, not counting the ones in the Black Knights.
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Old 2008-06-24, 21:19   Link #2153
m1thril
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Actually, now that I think about it, has Zero actually achieved any benefits or gains for the Japenese, or are they still in pretty much the same situation as the beginning of S1. And I mean the average Japenese, person, not counting the ones in the Black Knights.
THANK YOU...i was just about to point this out. aside from causing a lot of chaos, LL hasn't exactly done anything either...i think we shall find out soon enough though eh?
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Old 2008-06-24, 21:20   Link #2154
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Actually, now that I think about it, has Zero actually achieved any benefits or gains for the Japenese, or are they still in pretty much the same situation as the beginning of S1. And I mean the average Japenese, person, not counting the ones in the Black Knights.
he probably made things worse for Japan with his first rebellion. His second rebellion 'freed' a million people, and more recently has helped in reforming the chinese government.
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Old 2008-06-24, 21:30   Link #2155
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he probably made things worse for Japan with his first rebellion. His second rebellion 'freed' a million people, and more recently has helped in reforming the chinese government.
So, he actually made conditions worse for the average Japanese person during the first rebellion, and he only managed to free the one million people with Suzuku's help, though I thought that most of those people were part of the Black Knights. However, my point is, how much has that helped the average Japanese citizen still livining in Japan? Plus, I'm sure that the average Japanese person in Code Geass really doesn't care about him reforming the Chinese Federation's government.
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Old 2008-06-24, 21:32   Link #2156
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
So, he actually made conditions worse for the average Japanese person during the first rebellion, and he only managed to free the one million people with Suzuku's help, though I thought that most of those people were part of the Black Knights. However, my point is, how much has that helped the average Japanese citizen still livining in Japan? Plus, I'm sure that the average Japanese person in Code Geass really doesn't care about him reforming the Chinese Federation's government.
Undoubtedly most of those 1 million are normal citizens. Remember, the Britannians only captured about 255 Black Knights, and after that there were few left in hiding. So very little of that mass of people are Black Knights.
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Old 2008-06-24, 21:35   Link #2157
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The claim is still valid as Suzaku still hasn't accomplished anything, while Zero has.
Actually,Suzaku showed them hope just as LL did,an Eleven become the knight of a princess is a fairy tale until Suzaku comes.He's the evidence that you can still succeed and have a better life under Britania rule if you have the ability.With more people strive to be like him, the Japanese could become a formidable force and demands more rights from the empire, by then the Btit can't ignore them anymore.

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he probably made things worse for Japan with his first rebellion. His second rebellion 'freed' a million people, and more recently has helped in reforming the chinese government.
His second rebellion freed a million,yes.But it relies heavily on "that guy" everybody want dead or disappeared to be there and stop the shooting.And he helped the Chinese because it's beneficial to him not because he's a saint.

ps:too bad i wasn't there the last 4-5 pages to join that heated debate.....
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Old 2008-06-24, 21:42   Link #2158
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
The claim is still valid as Suzaku still hasn't accomplished anything, while Zero has.
This again

He stop zero's little rebillion in his tracks and gained the knight of round title

He went from being a private to a knights of round in the space of 26 episodes.

Unless you meant to stay he hasn't done anything for the elevens that statement is more valid.

Its only recently from episodes 8 to 11 in R2 that Zero actually doing some good after nunnally put him in his place. No matter how much you try to down play what he did in episode 8. Zero's plan would've failed if it wasn't for nunnally and suzaku
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Old 2008-06-24, 21:46   Link #2159
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Again, the question boils down to "Is it possible for Nunnally to be using Suzaku?" We all have the impression that the manipulation is only one-way. As the daughter of her father (and mother to an extent), I don't think Nunnally is quite as pure as some had made her out to be.
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Old 2008-06-24, 21:53   Link #2160
Var
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Originally Posted by prototype_sky View Post
This again
Not quite. But I'll humor you.

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Originally Posted by prototype_sky View Post
He stop zero's little rebillion in his tracks and gained the knight of round title
Let's start from the top, simply 'cause, he did not stop Zero's rebellion. V.V. stopped Zero's rebellion. He did, however, gain the rank of Knight of Seven... of course he lost all support he may have had by anyone in Japan completely.

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Originally Posted by prototype_sky View Post
He went from being a private to a knights of round in the space of 26 episodes.
This is basically the same as above. His success is to a degree his own earning, to another degree it is also V.V. and Charles' doing. So again, he gained the rank, but not really of his own power.

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Originally Posted by prototype_sky View Post
Unless you meant to stay he hasn't done anything for the elevens that statement is more valid.
More or less. Though it's arguable just how much he's even done towards his original goal of changing the system from within. Ep.8 wasn't the first instance of him doing something, but none of the instances so far have actually amounted to changing anything. He's not changed Britannia at all.

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Originally Posted by prototype_sky View Post
Its only recently from episodes 8 to 11 in R2 that Zero actually doing some good after nunnally put him in his place. No matter how much you try to down play what he did in episode 8. Zero's plan would've failed if it wasn't for nunnally and suzaku
Zero's been accomplishing his goal only more recently as well, but at least he's made progress towards that end. He's built an army to challenge his father's empire and found allies across the world.

I'm almost certain that the plan was made because Suzaku and Nunally were the one's in charge. I doubt he'd have used the same plan otherwise, and thinking that he would have is just stupid. You plan according to the conditions set forth, the conditions were Suzaku and Nunally. If it were Cornelia, for instance, the plan would not have been even remotely the same.
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