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Old 2008-06-24, 21:59   Link #2161
prototype_sky
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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
he probably made things worse for Japan with his first rebellion. His second rebellion 'freed' a million people, and more recently has helped in reforming the chinese government.
Its more like he turned them into refugee's .

Now imagine if you're landowner and there was a change in power now if the new heads of state let you keep your land and improved the economic situtation would you really give dam.

My guess is the people who supported the black knights probably lived in areas that was ravaged by the war and weren't rebuilt or lost to britannia nobles who stole it so in a sense they either had their land stole or the britannia's weren't good landlords to them.

This right here is the true cause of the problem. Euphie really was trying to mend the situitation since the first thing she did in code geass in episode 5 was go to the getto to see how bad things were so she can improve it.

The SAZ was suppose to allow people to move out of those run down zones into new areas that they can develope and have an decent lifestyle
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Old 2008-06-24, 22:05   Link #2162
orangejuicetang
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I'm almost certain that the plan was made because Suzaku and Nunally were the one's in charge. I doubt he'd have used the same plan otherwise, and thinking that he would have is just stupid. You plan according to the conditions set forth, the conditions were Suzaku and Nunally. If it were Cornelia, for instance, the plan would not have been even remotely the same.
I agree with this. However, the difference between his plan when Suzuku and Nunually were in charge as opposed to his plan when someone like Cornelia is in charge, is that his plan with Suzuku and Nunually would probably be a less violent. Since the one person he wouldn't want to rebel against and thus stain "their hand with blood" would be Nunually, and he knew Suzuku's personality well enough to devise a plan that would be able for him to retreat in a nonviolent way. Say if Cornelia was in charge, I'm sure that he would just continue with undermining the government like he did in S1. However, the point is, would just undermining the government help the average Japanese citizen. Also, Zero has been accomplishing some of his goals recently with an army and allies, but that goal is revenge against his father, and not helping the Japanese, which brings me back to my point. How does that help the average Japanese citizen?
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Old 2008-06-24, 22:11   Link #2163
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
I agree with this. However, the difference between his plan when Suzuku and Nunually were in charge as opposed to his plan when someone like Cornelia is in charge, is that his plan with Suzuku and Nunually would probably be a less violent. Since the one person he wouldn't want to rebel against and thus stain "their hand with blood" would be Nunually, and he knew Suzuku's personality well enough to devise a plan that would be able for him to retreat in a nonviolent way. Say if Cornelia was in charge, I'm sure that he would just continue with undermining the government like he did in S1. However, the point is, would just undermining the government help the average Japanese citizen. Also, Zero has been accomplishing some of his goals recently with an army and allies, but that goal is revenge against his father, and not helping the Japanese, which brings me back to my point. How does that help the average Japanese citizen?
Only thing I can think of is that by being Zero, he gave them hope for a better life. He had done more for them, and did more damage to the Empire, than any of the resistance factions in Japan at that time. Even after the failure of the Black Rebellion, the people still looked up for Zero and considered him their hero.
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Old 2008-06-24, 22:12   Link #2164
prototype_sky
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Let's start from the top, simply 'cause, he did not stop Zero's rebellion. V.V. stopped Zero's rebellion. He did, however, gain the rank of Knight of Seven... of course he lost all support he may have had by anyone in Japan completely.
This was clearly Zero's fault with his infamous j/k command to euphia. When the SAZ was first mention at this point Suzaku was starting to get some positive PR with the Japanese. Bloody Euphia destroyed all that

Last time I checked Suzaku delivered Spin Kick to Zero's face not V.V.

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Originally Posted by Var View Post
This is basically the same as above. His success is to a degree his own earning, to another degree it is also V.V. and Charles' doing. So again, he gained the rank, but not really of his own power.
Its an accomplishment none the less since he use his power to capture Zero regardless.


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Originally Posted by Var View Post
More or less. Though it's arguable just how much he's even done towards his original goal of changing the system from within. Ep.8 wasn't the first instance of him doing something, but none of the instances so far have actually amounted to changing anything. He's not changed Britannia at all.
He is part of the system now it may not be a violent drastic change but its a change not the less. For a non pure blood to have that honor

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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Zero's been accomplishing his goal only more recently as well, but at least he's made progress towards that end. He's built an army to challenge his father's empire and found allies across the world.

I'm almost certain that the plan was made because Suzaku and Nunally were the one's in charge. I doubt he'd have used the same plan otherwise, and thinking that he would have is just stupid. You plan according to the conditions set forth, the conditions were Suzaku and Nunally. If it were Cornelia, for instance, the plan would not have been even remotely the same.
It still relied on Suzaku rank and authority since the legal deal was to only exile zero, so everyone there could've been executed.
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Old 2008-06-24, 22:19   Link #2165
m1thril
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Only thing I can think of is that by being Zero, he gave them hope for a better life. He had done more for them, and did more damage to the Empire, than any of the resistance factions in Japan at that time. Even after the failure of the Black Rebellion, the people still looked up for Zero and considered him their hero.
like someone said earlier...suzaku also gave some japanese hope for a better life too by becoming euphie's knight...it was just that this part turned to shit after the euphie incident
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Old 2008-06-24, 22:23   Link #2166
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by m1thril View Post
like someone said earlier...suzaku also gave some japanese hope for a better life too by becoming euphie's knight...it was just that this part turned to shit after the euphie incident
I know. And that's why they still consider Zero to be their savior, not Suzaku.
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Old 2008-06-24, 22:31   Link #2167
m1thril
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I know. And that's why they still consider Zero to be their savior, not Suzaku.
ahh i see your point...from the perspective of the japanese, zero has accomplished more since it seems like suzaku betrayed them
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Old 2008-06-24, 22:41   Link #2168
SoldierOfDarkness
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Well he may have re-established some trust with the japanese and citizens that remained in Japan which is what Lelouch wanted (for nunnally)

Since they saw that the SAR ended smoothly with no shots fired, especially with him holding the line, the britannians may have regained their credibility in the area which would calm it.
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Old 2008-06-25, 00:32   Link #2169
vision33r
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I thought I was reading some fan-fiction here about Suzaku.. certainly some of the Suzaku accomplishments here are a bit exaggerated..
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Old 2008-06-25, 00:37   Link #2170
m1thril
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Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
I thought I was reading some fan-fiction here about Suzaku.. certainly some of the Suzaku accomplishments here are a bit exaggerated..
care to provide some examples? would be even better with some rebuttals o.0
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Old 2008-06-25, 02:14   Link #2171
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
As I had said in the Kallen thread, I was merely jesting and mocking. All of your points has merits, and I can't really blame him. But if you ask me, his whole wanting Knight of One to rule Area 11 is a bit, well, close-minded, I suppose. (not sure if that's the best term). Suzaku is trying to liberate Japan from Britannia's rule, while Lelouch, as Zero, is trying to liberate the WORLD from Britannia's rule. I guess that would make Lelouch looking out of a greater good that is, well, greater than the greater good Suzaku's looking out for. And has he REALLY done anything to change anything from within yet?
Assuming that he actually becomes Knight of One (after the current Knight of One gets removed somehow), and that he does get to rule Area 11:

1) He is still under the Britannian Military chain of command (under the Emperor's personal command) so if he was ordered to kill the Japanese, seeing how he likes so much following britannian orders he would probably accept that order.

2) Sure the Japanese get to be ruled by one of their own people, in fact a person who committed patricide and sold out his own country, but the Japanese would still be under the rule of the Britannian Empire and Suzaku as governor could always be replaced by a britannian at the whim of the emperor.

For the Japanese it would be the case of out of the fire but still in the hot frying pan. They are still going to be part of the Britannia empire as a territory and will still have britannian rulers at the absolute top.

Also Suzaku isn't as smart as quite a good percentage of the people we've seen in the series, and we all know he has more brawn than brains, incapable of planning so how will he govern a civil administration? He isn't like Lelouch who is capable of choosing the correct person to delegate a task. Does Suzaku think that just by becoming the governor and ruling Area 11 with a kind heart is enough? How will he fulfill the needs of the civilians when even now the Britannians who have occupied Area 11 and the Japanese have some conflict and differences. The Britannians live in posh areas while the Japanese live in Ghettos and are treated as resources than human beings.

Plus the fact that from what we have seen so far, he doesn't seem to be a personal confidente of Schneizel (who does show some potential of change in Britannia) and even though being promoted to a Knight of Round is still used as a footsoldier to take care of certain situations.

In the end, if the Japanese relied on Suzaku, on the long run they will still face years of oppression, injustice and they would suffer a slow death.

With Lelouch, their suffering is only on the short run because once he succeeds they will no longer feel the oppression of the Britannian empire.

Looking at it from an economical point of view, Lelouch is bringing more profits to the Japanese than Suzaku.
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Old 2008-06-25, 02:26   Link #2172
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
And the next thing you know you have another Hitler or Stalin running around.
I just have one thing to say in response:

"Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it; those who fail to learn history correctly - why, they are simply doomed."

Please go re-read your history books.

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
A revolution always starts off with good intentions though. Usually though, it ends up becoming worse than before. Heck, what will happen if Lelouch does get what he wants? Not everyone sees things the way he does, and once Lelouch loses power, or dies, the next person could be nothing more than a nasty tyrant that wants to oppress people they don't like.
You assume that Lelouch wants to rule the nations once he has conquered Britannian, but you forget the fact that his United States idea may end up in the form of a republic or democracy. Even during the American Revolution, Washington, Arnold, and all the other leaders of the Revolution ruled in the form of a joint leadership and only after the success did they form a government which was led by an elected official.
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Old 2008-06-25, 02:39   Link #2173
DN24
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1) He is still under the Britannian Military chain of command (under the Emperor's personal command) so if he was ordered to kill the Japanese, seeing how he likes so much following britannian orders he would probably accept that order.
This is getting old,don't you think? Just because he often follows order than not doesn't mean he got no brain and will also obey any absurd order.

Quote:
Sure the Japanese get to be ruled by one of their own people, in fact a person who committed patricide and sold out his own country, but the Japanese would still be under the rule of the Britannian Empire and Suzaku as governor could always be replaced by a britannian at the whim of the emperor.
The point is: the KoO has the privilege to choose any areas he wants so unless he lost his title,no one is going to take it away from him.And if you think the japanese should follow his dad so that the whole nation can be wiped out,then I have nothing else to say.

Quote:
For the Japanese it would be the case of out of the fire but still in the hot frying pan. They are still going to be part of the Britannia empire as a territory and will still have britannian rulers at the absolute top.
We don't know how much changes can he bring about.The jap could even become government official and run the country along with the brit.

Quote:
With Lelouch, their suffering is only on the short run because once he succeeds they will no longer feel the oppression of the Britannian empire.

Looking at it from an economical point of view, Lelouch is bringing more profits to the Japanese than Suzaku.
The problem is when will he succeed? LL could wage war for decades before he could crush Britania,by then that won't be a "short run" anymore.

And sure,Lelouch bring more profit to Japan.....the funeral service business is blossoming all thanks to him...
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Old 2008-06-25, 02:39   Link #2174
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
There are two major reasons for that right now.
1) He isn't the Knight of One yet.
2) Lelouch made it so the Britannian government can't trust Numbers in fear of rebellion AND is making it hard by being currently active.
Martin Luther King Jr used openly opposed methods to bring changes, even if his methods did not involve violence.

Suzaku hasn't even shown any sign of opposing, he was even willing to go along with the fact that an innocent girl should be sacrificed so that a group of genderless men could become nobilities. If Suzaku is only going to care about his own people (the Japanese) and not care about others in similar conditions, what good is he?
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Old 2008-06-25, 02:42   Link #2175
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
Oh please this is getting nowhere.

Lelouch having power = GOOD
Suzaku having power = BAD

Lelouch wanting to kill his dad = GOOD
Suzaku killing his dad = BAD

Lelouch doing evil things = GOOD
Suzaku doing evil things = BAD

Lelouch succeeding in changing the world = GOOD
Suzaku succeeding in changing the world = BAD

Lelouch screentime = GOOD
Suzaku screentime = OMG DIE ALREADY

Lelouch gets excuses and praise whatever he does.
Suzaku gets hate and death threats whatever he does.

This is how things work here. Prove me wrong. I don't know why we're even bothering.
Lelouch never once said he wanted to kill his father, he said he wants to find out why his mother was killed. And Lelouch doing evil things is relative, it depends on the point of view of the viewer.
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Old 2008-06-25, 02:44   Link #2176
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
The Knight of One has complete control over any region he wants. That is a significant difference.



No he can't. He really doesn't have much power in the Political aspects of things yet. He can't do shit.



Not just Tamaki. Everyone was also pissed that Deithard got such a high position in teh Black Knights just because he is Britannian. They are all racist in their own ways.
Diethard was given his position because of his skills and talents in information manipulation. Lelouch doesn't give out ranks for friendship, gender, race, etc, he gives them out due to talents and skills, to merit.
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Old 2008-06-25, 03:04   Link #2177
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Diethard was given his position because of his skills and talents in information manipulation. Lelouch doesn't give out ranks for friendship, gender, race, etc, he gives them out due to talents and skills, to merit.

he made it a point to tell them he isnt japanese
the head of his army is a guy he only met last ep (had to break him out of jail) but he is japanese
his personal bodyguard is a woman (not just in a mecha.she was there as his bodyguard in ep 9 of r2)
he really doesnt care about stuff like that
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Old 2008-06-25, 03:07   Link #2178
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
he probably made things worse for Japan with his first rebellion. His second rebellion 'freed' a million people, and more recently has helped in reforming the chinese government.
If compared to real world politics, Lelouch is succeeding in creating a superpower which can equally challenge the Britannian. And Japan is closer to the CF than to the Britannian mainland. If the CF becomes an open challenger to the Britannians, the amount of force the Britannians can exert becomes limited.

It will be like the current situation in the UN security council where neither US, UK, France, China, Russia can do anything to each other that would conflict with their interests due to the Veto power each holds.

So if Lelouch, once finished forming the United States nations and invaded Japan and kicked out the Britannian forces, the Britannians would have a very hard time regaining lost territory.
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Old 2008-06-25, 03:08   Link #2179
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Lelouch never once said he wanted to kill his father, he said he wants to find out why his mother was killed. And Lelouch doing evil things is relative, it depends on the point of view of the viewer.

and at least he admits that some of the things he does are despicable
at least he is honest about that one
he doesnt say how you cant use wrong means for good reasons
suzaku does
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Old 2008-06-25, 03:11   Link #2180
Ruvixur
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and at least he admits that some of the things he does are despicable
at least he is honest about that one
he doesnt say how you cant use wrong means for good reasons
suzaku does
Suzaku also admits that he i"s monster"
Using wrong means for good reasons? Do you think that Lelouch's reasons are good? He is destroying the world for the sake of Nunnaly and Marianne.
When Black Rebellion failed, situatuion in Area 11 only worsened( and probably in other areas, to crush oppositions)
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