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Old 2008-06-25, 16:53   Link #2281
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Actually, it is LOOSELY attached to Suzaku... It was brought up because some people see Lelouch as perfect and Suzaku as evil. So technically it is still on point, just a little bit off the track.
Lelouch isn't perfect, he has flaws, but most of his flaws are acceptable (within the confines of the objectives he is trying to accomplish). As for Suzaku, his main flaw is that he is an IDIOT and NAIVE.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:54   Link #2282
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
1) I said overthrow his father and become emperor, sure he wants to topple britannia and overthrow his father but he isn't doing it so he can become the emperor and perpetuate a flawed system

2) The objective of soldiers and commanders in war is to make the enemy suffer as much as possible. It's not to die for your country but to make the enemy die for their's.

3) There is always a chance of victory and failure and each has his own consequences.

4) The JLF was obsolete in their style of resistance and at the time they didn't want to join the OBK and tried to go their own stupid way, so to Lelouch he considered them to be useful as pawns in order to get rid of one of the biggest obstacles: Lancelot

5) Shirley's father died to an accident, he wasn't killed by the OBK, he was just at the wrong place at the wrong time (right in the direct path of where the landslide would be occuring) even the Britannian army who had evacuated the city didn't know he was there on a business trip.

6) Sun Tzu's Art of War states that capable generals in war must make use of any given opportunity in order to win a battle. The tiniest flawed chink in the armor can mean a matter of victory and defeat.
And we can thus end this discussion here with one conclusion: you think like Lelouch and fully agree with his every plan and action. I guess your hatred of Suzaku is justified then.

But guess what? Some of us don't agree with Lelouch's ways.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:54   Link #2283
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Lelouch isn't perfect, he has flaws, but most of his flaws are acceptable (within the confines of the objectives he is trying to accomplish). As for Suzaku, his main flaw is that he is an IDIOT and NAIVE.
That's 100% personal opinion.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:55   Link #2284
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Lelouch isn't perfect, he has flaws, but most of his flaws are acceptable (within the confines of the objectives he is trying to accomplish). As for Suzaku, his main flaw is that he is an IDIOT and NAIVE.
Would you explain yourself? Because I haven't gotten the same thing.

Also, that Lelouch cop-out is getting old now. It is lame excuse to try and reason away all the horrible things he has done. It just doesn't fly with me.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:58   Link #2285
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1) Murdering innocent bystanders? And what has the Britannian army been doing? Handing out flowers? Clovis ordered the deaths of thousands of innocents, the britannian army just simply accepted euphemia's orders to kill the Japanese, carares executes prisoners everyday, etc. Compared to that Lelouch has always tried to minimize the amount of civilian casualties most of which are purely accidental.
And what he did make him no better than the Britanian army.Also,can you explain how blowing up the whole city related to " tried to minimize the amount of civilian casualties"?

Quote:
2) LOL no military commander with half a brain would ever give up a chance to take advantage of a good opportunity to gain leverage over an enemy. If Lelouch had given up this chance, he'd have to be a retard. But it was a pure accident that his geass had to run amok at this time and affect Euphiemia.
The thing is after all the sacrifice he abandon the cause and go off somewhere.That make him look real bad to me

Quote:
5) Most of his actions has made significant improvements for people who were once living under oppression. He doesn't order his own men to die for disobeying him, he doesn't go around ordering the slaughter of students, women and children.
In what way did his actions made life easier for the Japanese? He only made things worse for them.He doesn't go around slaughter innocents people,he blew them up along with the Britanian army.He even used his own so call "friends" and the students of Ashford as a shield...

In R2,because his precious sister rejected him and his way of doing things,he comes up with the plan that risk only 1 million lives to go abroad and continue his fight....


As I have said before, in R1 both Suzaku and LL gave hope to the Japanese,LL actions crushed the hope of people who think they can succeed and lead a better life under Britania rule.
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:13   Link #2286
Dynastya
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Lelouch is trying to win a war, not a popularity contest.

In war, it is more important that your soldiers follow your command and work as a unit (aka a well oiled geared machinary) so that they win and don't die. Any weak link in the chain can mean certain death. This is war, it is a kill or be killed situation, not a sports game where even if you lose you can play again. In war once a soldier loses its over, its death.

Commanders in a war are like doctors treating patients. Just like doctors are warned not to consider their patients like relatives or operate on their own relatives, generals cannot afford to show friendship or any form of biasness to soldiers under their command less it causes discrimination.

In war soldiers are sent to what is potentially their certain death, and the soldiers themselves know that they are being sent that way, that is why military training and discipline is very important. You've probably seen in war movies where they show military boot camps as being extremely strict and unfair and the boot sergeants being so mean and oppressive to the point of tyranny. Well that's because it is supposed to be that way, normally humans try to avoid injury, thousands of years of evolutionary process has given us automatic reflexes where we duck, jump, roll for cover if we perceive anything potentially dangerous coming our way. Well with soldiers, such reflexes can be more useless than useful, therefore needs to be trained out of their system, especially when you may be sending them to situations where they need to brave out life threatening situations. Thats why military discipline is a lot stricter than the discipline a police officer would receive.
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:14   Link #2287
Rising Dragon
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Seriously, guys, move it to the Lelouch thread. You're not even mentioning Suzaku now.
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:14   Link #2288
demon_god04
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Okay, I see alot of posts that seem to be trying to implicate that Lelouch is some kind of monster that gets off on murder and destruction. Lelouch may not be above making sacrifices for his plans, but it is shown that he does not enjoy them. He wasn't dancing on Shirley's dad's grave or anything and he felt remorse over what he has done.

Sacrifices are sometimes needed and he does not go out of his way to sacrifice innocents just when needed for his plans. Does that make him better? Not really, but it is still a far cry from a murdering madman some of you are painting him out to be. If you label him so just for making sacrifices when needed then you may as well brand the Allies and Germans so for their terror bombing tactics in WW2.
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:15   Link #2289
canis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
1) I said overthrow his father and become emperor, sure he wants to topple britannia and overthrow his father but he isn't doing it so he can become the emperor and perpetuate a flawed system

2) The objective of soldiers and commanders in war is to make the enemy suffer as much as possible. It's not to die for your country but to make the enemy die for their's.

3) There is always a chance of victory and failure and each has his own consequences.

4) The JLF was obsolete in their style of resistance and at the time they didn't want to join the OBK and tried to go their own stupid way, so to Lelouch he considered them to be useful as pawns in order to get rid of one of the biggest obstacles: Lancelot

5) Shirley's father died to an accident, he wasn't killed by the OBK, he was just at the wrong place at the wrong time (right in the direct path of where the landslide would be occuring) even the Britannian army who had evacuated the city didn't know he was there on a business trip.

6) Sun Tzu's Art of War states that capable generals in war must make use of any given opportunity in order to win a battle. The tiniest flawed chink in the armor can mean a matter of victory and defeat.
That wasn't an accident it was an enemy attack... And it was so effective that it took a part of the town with it as well... So yes, it was the Order of the Black Knights that killed him... and several other soldiers and civilians.
It saved their hides so it was an effective and ingenious strategy, but it still was an attack
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:16   Link #2290
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Okay, I see alot of posts that seem to be trying to implicate that Lelouch is some kind of monster that gets off on murder and destruction. Lelouch may not be above making sacrifices for his plans, but it is shown that he does not enjoy them. He wasn't dancing on Shirley's dad's grave or anything and he felt remorse over what he has done.

Sacrifices are sometimes needed and he does not go out of his way to sacrifice innocents just when needed for his plans. Does that make him better? Not really, but it is still a far cry from a murdering madman some of you are painting him out to be. If you label him so just for making sacrifices when needed then you may as well brand the Allies and Germans so for their terror bombing tactics in WW2.
No one here is saying Lelouch is "some kind of monster that gets off on murder and destruction". We're just arguing with Dynastya, who claimed, a few pages ago, that Lelouch has no faults.

Now yes, please, move this to the Lelouch thread.
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:16   Link #2291
orangejuicetang
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Lelouch is trying to win a war, not a popularity contest.

In war, it is more important that your soldiers follow your command and work as a unit (aka a well oiled geared machinary) so that they win and don't die. Any weak link in the chain can mean certain death. This is war, it is a kill or be killed situation, not a sports game where even if you lose you can play again. In war once a soldier loses its over, its death.

Commanders in a war are like doctors treating patients. Just like doctors are warned not to consider their patients like relatives or operate on their own relatives, generals cannot afford to show friendship or any form of biasness to soldiers under their command less it causes discrimination.

In war soldiers are sent to what is potentially their certain death, and the soldiers themselves know that they are being sent that way, that is why military training and discipline is very important. You've probably seen in war movies where they show military boot camps as being extremely strict and unfair and the boot sergeants being so mean and oppressive to the point of tyranny. Well that's because it is supposed to be that way, normally humans try to avoid injury, thousands of years of evolutionary process has given us automatic reflexes where we duck, jump, roll for cover if we perceive anything potentially dangerous coming our way. Well with soldiers, such reflexes can become a life risking and therefore needs to be trained out of their system, especially when you may be sending them to situations where they need to brave out life threatening situations. Thats why military discipline is a lot stricter than the discipline a police officer would receive.
What a wonderful analysis on war training. What does that have to do with Suzuku or even Lelouch?
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:18   Link #2292
Orga777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Okay, I see alot of posts that seem to be trying to implicate that Lelouch is some kind of monster that gets off on murder and destruction. Lelouch may not be above making sacrifices for his plans, but it is shown that he does not enjoy them. He wasn't dancing on Shirley's dad's grave or anything and he felt remorse over what he has done.
Well that isn't really my intention though. People claim that Lelouch is 'justified' and Suzaku 'is scum' and I am trying to understand why people think that way when it most clearly is not the truth. They are both flawed, but some people's love of Lelouch thinks he isn't flawed or wrong in any way while they go and bash Suzaku for the same reason. It just boggles my mind when I see those arguments.
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:21   Link #2293
orangejuicetang
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Okay, I see alot of posts that seem to be trying to implicate that Lelouch is some kind of monster that gets off on murder and destruction. Lelouch may not be above making sacrifices for his plans, but it is shown that he does not enjoy them. He wasn't dancing on Shirley's dad's grave or anything and he felt remorse over what he has done.

Sacrifices are sometimes needed and he does not go out of his way to sacrifice innocents just when needed for his plans. Does that make him better? Not really, but it is still a far cry from a murdering madman some of you are painting him out to be. If you label him so just for making sacrifices when needed then you may as well brand the Allies and Germans so for their terror bombing tactics in WW2.
I don't think I've takled about Lelouch as a type of madman or monster. I'm just trying to point out that Lelouch is similar to Suzuku in some moral aspects, so therefore Lelouch is not as angelic Suzuku is not so demonic as those some people seem to think
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:26   Link #2294
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Well that isn't really my intention though. People claim that Lelouch is 'justified' and Suzaku 'is scum' and I am trying to understand why people think that way when it most clearly is not the truth. They are both flawed, but some people's love of Lelouch thinks he isn't flawed or wrong in any way while they go and bash Suzaku for the same reason. It just boggles my mind when I see those arguments.
Well your posts and a few others do actually mention him in that light. The way I see it is that Lelouch is actually producing results which is why people are cutting him slack in terms of what he has done versus his intentions, while Suzaku has not really accomplished anything towards his ideal. I guess some people tend to be more judgmental when it comes to Suzaku because of his hypocrisy and lack of real results.
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:26   Link #2295
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Well that isn't really my intention though. People claim that Lelouch is 'justified' and Suzaku 'is scum' and I am trying to understand why people think that way when it most clearly is not the truth. They are both flawed, but some people's love of Lelouch thinks he isn't flawed or wrong in any way while they go and bash Suzaku for the same reason. It just boggles my mind when I see those arguments.

Because he's the main character that's why, fans don't care what he does is right or wrong they only care if he has any regret as a final result than after seeing him cry for Euphie they willingly say "maybe he's not so bad after all"
Suzaku gets the short end of the stick because hes the archenemy of the main character and thus should be traeted as scum because of it.
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:27   Link #2296
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by canis View Post
That wasn't an accident it was an enemy attack... And it was so effective that it took a part of the town with it as well... So yes, it was the Order of the Black Knights that killed him... and several other soldiers and civilians.
It saved their hides so it was an effective and ingenious strategy, but it still was an attack
Even before Lelouch arrived Cornelia had already ordered the city to be evacuated when she surrounded the JLF base, Lelouch knew this so he used the tactic of the landslide. We don't know what he would've done if the city was still obviously occupied. And sure there were reports that a few people still remained in the city, but in the eyes of both Lelouch and Cornelia, the potential threat to the lives a few remaining people were less important than reaching their objectives. If the city had still been full than perhaps the lives of the people may have outweighed their goals but it was only a few people left and no one was sure even if they were close to the battle area or on the other side of the city far from the field of war.

Hence the death of Shirley's father was accidental, no one except his family knew he was there on a trip (I think it was even hinted that he was there either on business or to see a mistress or something). He was just collateral death which occurs often in any war.

If you (as a police captain or someone in charge) have an enemy holding a detonator to a set of bombs placed inside a large building with hundreds of people and he was only holding a few people hostage and you were 100% sure that he would be pressing that detonator no matter what you tell him are you still going to try and negotiate for the lives of those few hostages (when it has been proven 100% positive that the criminal will not listen to you anymore and is going to blow up the building killing everyone) and give him time to press the switch or would you make the decision that the lives of the few hostages has reached a point that it has become necessary to expose them to the risks of a full assault on the criminal to prevent a greater number of people from dying.
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:30   Link #2297
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Well that isn't really my intention though. People claim that Lelouch is 'justified' and Suzaku 'is scum' and I am trying to understand why people think that way when it most clearly is not the truth. They are both flawed, but some people's love of Lelouch thinks he isn't flawed or wrong in any way while they go and bash Suzaku for the same reason. It just boggles my mind when I see those arguments.
I never said he was perfect, I know he has flaws, but most of those flaws in the context of what he is trying to do, which is win a 'war' against Britannia, are acceptable as it can be considered 'wartime'. However if it were peace time and he was using the same methods to say win the Olympics then they no longer become acceptable.
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:33   Link #2298
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post

Because he's the main character that's why, fans don't care what he does is right or wrong they only care if he has any regret as a final result than after seeing him cry for Euphie they willingly say "maybe he's not so bad after all"
Suzaku gets the short end of the stick because hes the archenemy of the main character and thus should be traeted as scum because of it.
If that was the main cause of Suzaku hate then I don't see why Cornelia or Schniezel or even Orange-kun are not hated as well. Cornelia and Orange-kun has gone against Lelouch on several occasions and Cornelia made him look like a fool the first time they went head to head in the ghetto.
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:34   Link #2299
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
No one here is saying Lelouch is "some kind of monster that gets off on murder and destruction". We're just arguing with Dynastya, who claimed, a few pages ago, that Lelouch has no faults.

Now yes, please, move this to the Lelouch thread.
As in any discussion about anything, there will always be comparing and contrasting with other related items, in this case of Suzaku it would be Lelouch as it seems they are polar opposites. And sometimes these comparison discussions will require a few posts and momentarily go off topic before getting back on track.

* edit: meant to say polar opposites in terms of their ideals.

Last edited by Dynastya; 2008-06-25 at 17:45.
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Old 2008-06-25, 17:42   Link #2300
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
As in any discussion about anything, there will always be comparing and contrasting with other related items, in this case of Suzaku it would be Lelouch as it seems they are polar opposites. And sometimes these comparison discussions will require a few posts and momentarily go off topic before getting back on track.
I've said this before, but while there are certainly differences between the two, Suzaku and Lelouch are not that different. They're both trying to change the world as it is, they both have been forced onto a specific path because of tragedy, they both regret things, they both believe they are doing the right thing.

Different, but similar. That's one of the reasons I like their relationship so much.
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