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Old 2008-06-25, 18:26   Link #2301
Dean_the_Young
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Been gone for a few days, and look what pops up? A pick of some of the best pieces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller View Post
It never did end badly for Russia- their revolution deposed the Czar and got rid of the autocratic system. It was an outright triumph.
I call bull. When one of the official government positions of the Soviet occupation policies of Eastern Europe is that they weren't outright genocide because millions of Russians were killed as well, that's setting the moral high ground somewhere around the base of the Mariana Trench.
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
"Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes. I'll see you later." Just a quote from a book about revolutions discussion earlier that I just had to put in, though it might be a bit late now.
I appreciate the reference to Discworld, a series which can be oddly illuminating on life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedonkiluminati View Post
Like I said, personal opinon. I'd rather go down fighting.
You know, that was Suzaku's father's position as well. It was, what was the phrase? Oh yes.

"Making a selfish decision for the rest of the nation."

Suzaku's selfish decision was in response to another purely selfish decision. Only one was a vindictive desire to make the whole world suffer for the fruit of his own policies, and the other was a selfish desire to not see people die for no reason. When it comes down to it, Suzaku's selfish choice was the only one that offered both choices to the people of Japan. The people who would choose to bow their heads and live with the occupiers had their chance, and those who would rather go down fighting could go and join the resistance. If a ten year old boy hadn't been selfish, no one would have been given either choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
The claim is still valid as Suzaku still hasn't accomplished anything, while Zero has.
Let's make a little tally on the comparative high points of Zero's methodology of violent revolution compared to the Suzaku-backed methods.

Zero:
-Broke apart the largest resistance movement, one that had some legitimacy by including vestiges from the last Japanese government.
-Launched a rebellion, and then promptly let it fail to chase after his sister. Results were... counterproductive in terms of helping the Japanese.
-Getting a million people, largely his own private army, out of Japan.

Suzaku:
-His status came close to reconciling the Elevens with Britannia, to the point that support was split between the Black Knights and the Honorary Britannians.
-Not once, but twice, helped oversee the establishment of the SAZ, which even Zero admitted would give peace to Japan. Both times, the SAZ was established with help from inside the Britannian nobility.
-Saved the second SAZ from being stillborn by peacefully removing the only credible rebel force from Japan.


Regardless of whether you think it reasonable or not, if you only want to go on results then hopelessly inept and naive Suzaku has been remarkably successful with views of peaceful change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Lelouch never once said he wanted to kill his father, he said he wants to find out why his mother was killed. And Lelouch doing evil things is relative, it depends on the point of view of the viewer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Lelouch said that he would become evil to defeat an even greater evil. Lelouch has been consistent with his actions so far.
This would be parody, yes? Because Lelouch has been astonishingly hesitant, ill at ease, and otherwise flacid the moment anyone he cares about comes into the situation. The entire first season highlighted just how not-evil he was despite his grandstanding, from Shirley to Suzaku to Nunally to Euphie. The moment that friends or family come into the picture, Lelouch plans everything around them, usually after a good deal of hesitance, self-doubt, and inner conflict. After discovering the Lancelot's pilot, Lelouch has yet to actually go out and try and kill Suzaku, for example.

Heck, even the director has admitted that Lelouch fails at being evil. His choice for english voice actor for Lelouch was something along the lines of "I liked him because he failed at trying to sound truly evil."

Yes, Lelouch can heartlessly order countless strangers to their deaths, betray people he doesn't really care about for his own benefit, and turn tragic mistakes into disgusting PR coup. But anyone can be cruel to strangers. Lelouch is far too friend- and family-centered to be called "consistently" evil. Hell, he almost gave up everything just because his sister admonished his methods! A truly dedicated and "evil" person wouldn't care what his unwilling beneficiary thought: he would remain convinced he knew best and not give a damn.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
I've said this before, but while there are certainly differences between the two, Suzaku and Lelouch are not that different. They're both trying to change the world as it is, they both have been forced onto a specific path because of tragedy, they both regret things, they both believe they are doing the right thing.

Different, but similar. That's one of the reasons I like their relationship so much.
One of the more insightful things I've heard in these last few threads. And pretty sustainable, too. For example, have you considered that Suzaku and Lelouch share virtually every fault and flaw anyone has come up with for either?

Being deceitful about his true nature? You have Suzaku's attempts to cover up his true nature (which he grows out of), and Lelouch's lying to everyone from his sister down.

Foolishly devoted to their own plan? Everyone likes to point out the possible weaknesses in Suzaku's plans, but has anyone considered the problem with Lelouch's long-term sustainability? Such as how he's not only against a power that has and can again grind Japan into rubble, but is led by an acknowledgedly ruthless man who will soon have nuclear weapons?


I could go on, but I think you see the point. Lelouch and Suzaku share just as many flaws as virtues, regardless of their strengths and weaknesses. It's a good point to bring up repeatedly.
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Old 2008-06-25, 18:27   Link #2302
blitz1/2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
The Bible, the Qur'an, all those religious books were written by men who wanted power over their fellowmen. All BS.




1) Murdering innocent bystanders? And what has the Britannian army been doing? Handing out flowers? Clovis ordered the deaths of thousands of innocents, the britannian army just simply accepted euphemia's orders to kill the Japanese, carares executes prisoners everyday, etc. Compared to that Lelouch has always tried to minimize the amount of civilian casualties most of which are purely accidental.

2) LOL no military commander with half a brain would ever give up a chance to take advantage of a good opportunity to gain leverage over an enemy. If Lelouch had given up this chance, he'd have to be a retard. But it was a pure accident that his geass had to run amok at this time and affect Euphiemia.

3) In any war, soldiers under your command, and soldiers under the command of the enemy (especially this latter group) are to be treated as tools in a war, or gears in a machine. Your soldiers must be like a perfectly oiled complex geared machinery in order to win battles and the enemy soldiers would serve best as tools to be used against themselves.

4) LOL if he doesn't keep his identity as Zero a secret, Nunally and potentially a lot of others in Ashford would be exposed to dangers. And he is trying to win a war against a much stronger enemy, he can't afford to be compassionate or feel towards anyone who could either be placed in danger or become a danger to him.

5) Most of his actions has made significant improvements for people who were once living under oppression. He doesn't order his own men to die for disobeying him, he doesn't go around ordering the slaughter of students, women and children.

His latest actions in CF has given the strength needed to the people living under tyranny so that they can rise up against their oppressors.

6) In R1 it was shown that he has Nunally on his mind all the time and that his desire is to find out why his mother died and protect Nunally. Sure you can say he was doing it for himself as his desire was to allow Nunally live in a nicer world and avenge their mother's death. Never once did he express any desire to overthrow his father and become emperor or the like. Because the way it was, they were still living under the constant fear that if the Emperor ever found out that they were still alive, there is still a chance that they could become pawns once again, and we still don't know why Marianne died and whether she actually died at all, as the rumors are going Marianne is supposedly one of the most powerful of CC and VV's people and if Lelouch and Nunally are her children who knows what potential their genes hold which could be made use of by the Emperor.

In R2, he has come to realize that he has now become much greater than just someone who wants to avenge the death of a loved one, he has become a symbol of hope for many people who are suffering.

And of course Nunally is a sort of anchor for Lelouch, one that holds him in check so that he doesn't become something like his father. Absolute power corrupts and he is aware of this so he needs someone like her to make sure he doesn't go over the line, someone who can bring him relief when he is stressed with the burden of command and warfare. Each and everyone in this series has something or someone worth fighting for.

For Lelouch is Nunally and his friends
For Kallen it is her mother
For Guilford it is his loyalty to Cornelia
For Schneizel it is his desire to surpass his father and become emperor (not 100% sure here but most likely)
For Ougi it is probably due to the promise he made to his friend (Kallen's brother)
For Todoh it is to reclaim the nation that he once served
For Xingke it is Tianzi
etc.....

BTW: those reasons you listed, please re-watch ALL the episodes, if you haven't seen them yet. Because they all either suck or are just plain BS.
For Suzaku, it is to uphold Euphemia and now Nunnally's ideals of peace and unity.
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Old 2008-06-25, 18:28   Link #2303
m1thril
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Well your posts and a few others do actually mention him in that light. The way I see it is that Lelouch is actually producing results which is why people are cutting him slack in terms of what he has done versus his intentions, while Suzaku has not really accomplished anything towards his ideal. I guess some people tend to be more judgmental when it comes to Suzaku because of his hypocrisy and lack of real results.
the only results i see at most is getting 1 million people out of the country and giving 'hope' to others. other than that, he worsened the situation for people in japan. also you can't forget that LL can be hypocritical at times, but i guess people don't see this. LL's way will also seem to take a very long time considering the manpower that britannia has. unless he pulls something out of his ass (which usually happens), imo, he will be rebelling for a very long time even with the CF on his side.
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Old 2008-06-25, 18:30   Link #2304
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by m1thril View Post
the only results i see at most is getting 1 million people out of the country and giving 'hope' to others. other than that, he worsened the situation for people in japan. also you can't forget that LL can be hypocritical at times, but i guess people don't see this. LL's way will also seem to take a very long time considering the manpower that britannia has. unless he pulls something out of his ass (which usually happens), imo, he will be rebelling for a very long time even with the CF on his side.
Yea, but Lulu ALWAYS has fate, luck and superior tech compared to the others. Feel sorry for Suzaku now.
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Old 2008-06-25, 18:52   Link #2305
orangejuicetang
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Quote:
I appreciate the reference to Discworld, a series which can be oddly illuminating on life.
I'm glad someone caught that refrenence. Though they may not seem like it, but those books can have very deep points and meanings inside of them. One of my favorites series to read. But back on topic, do you think that Suzuku will be at the cupid party thing that Milly is holding next episode?
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Old 2008-06-25, 18:54   Link #2306
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
I'm glad someone caught that refrenence. Though they may not seem like it, but those books can have very deep points and meanings inside of them. One of my favorites series to read. But back on topic, do you think that Suzuku will be at the cupid party thing that Milly is holding next episode?
Too busy mindwiping Kallen
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Old 2008-06-25, 18:59   Link #2307
hanseo
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
Yea, but Lulu ALWAYS has fate, luck and superior tech compared to the others. Feel sorry for Suzaku now.
you are joking right
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Old 2008-06-25, 19:05   Link #2308
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
Too busy mindwiping Kallen
Or placing her under her family's care if mindwiped isn't the fate they'll reserve for her...
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Old 2008-06-25, 19:09   Link #2309
Dean_the_Young
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
I'm glad someone caught that refrenence. Though they may not seem like it, but those books can have very deep points and meanings inside of them. One of my favorites series to read. But back on topic, do you think that Suzuku will be at the cupid party thing that Milly is holding next episode?
Little doubt about it, IMO. If the other two Knights of Round can be there, he will.

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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
Too busy mindraping Kallen
Fixed it for Suzaku-phobes.
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Old 2008-06-25, 19:14   Link #2310
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
Yea, but Lulu ALWAYS has fate, luck and superior tech compared to the others. Feel sorry for Suzaku now.
It's not like that mostly. And often enough, even when he wins, he usually enough also loses something in the end in return.
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Old 2008-06-25, 20:10   Link #2311
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Been gone for a few days, and look what pops up? A pick of some of the best pieces.


I call bull. When one of the official government positions of the Soviet occupation policies of Eastern Europe is that they weren't outright genocide because millions of Russians were killed as well, that's setting the moral high ground somewhere around the base of the Mariana Trench.

I appreciate the reference to Discworld, a series which can be oddly illuminating on life.

You know, that was Suzaku's father's position as well. It was, what was the phrase? Oh yes.

"Making a selfish decision for the rest of the nation."

Suzaku's selfish decision was in response to another purely selfish decision. Only one was a vindictive desire to make the whole world suffer for the fruit of his own policies, and the other was a selfish desire to not see people die for no reason. When it comes down to it, Suzaku's selfish choice was the only one that offered both choices to the people of Japan. The people who would choose to bow their heads and live with the occupiers had their chance, and those who would rather go down fighting could go and join the resistance. If a ten year old boy hadn't been selfish, no one would have been given either choice.

Let's make a little tally on the comparative high points of Zero's methodology of violent revolution compared to the Suzaku-backed methods.

Zero:
-Broke apart the largest resistance movement, one that had some legitimacy by including vestiges from the last Japanese government.
-Launched a rebellion, and then promptly let it fail to chase after his sister. Results were... counterproductive in terms of helping the Japanese.
-Getting a million people, largely his own private army, out of Japan.

Suzaku:
-His status came close to reconciling the Elevens with Britannia, to the point that support was split between the Black Knights and the Honorary Britannians.
-Not once, but twice, helped oversee the establishment of the SAZ, which even Zero admitted would give peace to Japan. Both times, the SAZ was established with help from inside the Britannian nobility.
-Saved the second SAZ from being stillborn by peacefully removing the only credible rebel force from Japan.


Regardless of whether you think it reasonable or not, if you only want to go on results then hopelessly inept and naive Suzaku has been remarkably successful with views of peaceful change.





This would be parody, yes? Because Lelouch has been astonishingly hesitant, ill at ease, and otherwise flacid the moment anyone he cares about comes into the situation. The entire first season highlighted just how not-evil he was despite his grandstanding, from Shirley to Suzaku to Nunally to Euphie. The moment that friends or family come into the picture, Lelouch plans everything around them, usually after a good deal of hesitance, self-doubt, and inner conflict. After discovering the Lancelot's pilot, Lelouch has yet to actually go out and try and kill Suzaku, for example.

Heck, even the director has admitted that Lelouch fails at being evil. His choice for english voice actor for Lelouch was something along the lines of "I liked him because he failed at trying to sound truly evil."

Yes, Lelouch can heartlessly order countless strangers to their deaths, betray people he doesn't really care about for his own benefit, and turn tragic mistakes into disgusting PR coup. But anyone can be cruel to strangers. Lelouch is far too friend- and family-centered to be called "consistently" evil. Hell, he almost gave up everything just because his sister admonished his methods! A truly dedicated and "evil" person wouldn't care what his unwilling beneficiary thought: he would remain convinced he knew best and not give a damn.



One of the more insightful things I've heard in these last few threads. And pretty sustainable, too. For example, have you considered that Suzaku and Lelouch share virtually every fault and flaw anyone has come up with for either?

Being deceitful about his true nature? You have Suzaku's attempts to cover up his true nature (which he grows out of), and Lelouch's lying to everyone from his sister down.

Foolishly devoted to their own plan? Everyone likes to point out the possible weaknesses in Suzaku's plans, but has anyone considered the problem with Lelouch's long-term sustainability? Such as how he's not only against a power that has and can again grind Japan into rubble, but is led by an acknowledgedly ruthless man who will soon have nuclear weapons?


I could go on, but I think you see the point. Lelouch and Suzaku share just as many flaws as virtues, regardless of their strengths and weaknesses. It's a good point to bring up repeatedly.
Nice. Your point about Lelouch and Suzaku being decietful about their true natures brought to mind another point.

One of the polarities Lelouch fans tend to like to bring up is how while Suzaku 'lies to himself', Lelouch only lies to others. These people tend to be hardline extremists who believe Lelouch both must and is willing to do anything to succeed as a revolutionary (Dynastya above is an example, Ronin Aquila in other threads is another one). What these people seem to have missed repeatedly however is just how much Lelouch is lying to himself as well. From claims to 'walk the path of carnage' to declarations that he will 'become evil to defeat evil', Lelouch has expressed on multiple occasions how he has abandoned his emotions and become a soul that can 'endure loneliness'. As Dean has succinctly noted above, however, Lelouch is very much still a person who abandons all competency in the face of personal loss.
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Old 2008-06-25, 20:15   Link #2312
Orga777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As Dean has succinctly noted above, however, Lelouch is very much still a person who abandons all competency in the face of personal loss.
You know, that is actually an interesting contrast to Suzaku. In face of loss for him, it pushes him forward and makes him act (while Lelouch cowers away it seems.) I never really realized the contrasts between those two in that regard till you guys brought it up. (Also, another awesome insightful post by Dean.)
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Old 2008-06-25, 20:18   Link #2313
yezhanquan
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Going a little off-topic: Even with his own team, do you think Schneizel will rope Suzaku in on his side?
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Old 2008-06-25, 20:21   Link #2314
Orga777
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Going a little off-topic: Even with his own team, do you think Schneizel will rope Suzaku in on his side?
He may already have. Heck, Lloyd's group has always been under Schneizel's command from the beginning. Add in the fact that Suzaku seems to be one of Schneizel's personal guards (he seems to always be there protecting him after all) they may have already come to an agreement of some sort.
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Old 2008-06-25, 20:23   Link #2315
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Going a little off-topic: Even with his own team, do you think Schneizel will rope Suzaku in on his side?
He most likely will since if anyone has who is closer to Suzaku ideal goal in mind to change Britainnia from within is Schneizel, plus Schneizel seems to be w=quite interested in Suzaku since he seems to be the one he calls on the most.
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Old 2008-06-25, 20:27   Link #2316
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
He most likely will since if anyone has who is closer to Suzaku ideal goal in mind to change Britainnia from within is Schneizel, plus Schneizel seems to be w=quite interested in Suzaku since he seems to be the one he calls on the most.
Well, if Suzaku wishes to change Britannia from within, then Schneizel is probably his best possible patron...
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Old 2008-06-25, 20:39   Link #2317
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Nice. Your point about Lelouch and Suzaku being decietful about their true natures brought to mind another point.

One of the polarities Lelouch fans tend to like to bring up is how while Suzaku 'lies to himself', Lelouch only lies to others. These people tend to be hardline extremists who believe Lelouch both must and is willing to do anything to succeed as a revolutionary (Dynastya above is an example, Ronin Aquila in other threads is another one). What these people seem to have missed repeatedly however is just how much Lelouch is lying to himself as well. From claims to 'walk the path of carnage' to declarations that he will 'become evil to defeat evil', Lelouch has expressed on multiple occasions how he has abandoned his emotions and become a soul that can 'endure loneliness'. As Dean has succinctly noted above, however, Lelouch is very much still a person who abandons all competency in the face of personal loss.
There's other points to consider, as well. His "you aren't fit to be a savior" rant at Euphie before the massacre, before breaking down with C.C. about how he isn't fit for it either, or his planning around the Student Council in the Rebellion, which almost saw them killed by his own closest men. Character flaw or virtue regardless (and yes, it can be both), Lelouch is obsessive about planning everything out around his friends, no matter how heartless he proclaims himself.

Lady Macbeth he is not, for he does not steel himself at the moment. Lord Macbeth he is not, for he could not steel himself for the after, and keeps falling to the same trap over and over.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
You know, that is actually an interesting contrast to Suzaku. In face of loss for him, it pushes him forward and makes him act (while Lelouch cowers away it seems.) I never really realized the contrasts between those two in that regard till you guys brought it up. (Also, another awesome insightful post by Dean.)
Not just act, but change. His father's death shaped Suzaku into who he was for most of the first season, Euphie pushes him to cast off his old character for personal vengance for the first time (the first time since taking his father's life, I would wager, that Suzaku has acted only for his own selfish desire and not for some other belief or vindication/punishment), and Lelouch's revealing as Zero is the moment he really changed into what he is for now.

That isn't to say that loss doesn't change Lelouch: clearly, his mother's assassination shaped him. But ever since then, loss has done the opposite to him than for Suzaku. Rather than push him into a new direction, Lelouch gets more entrenched with every tragedy. Each time, it becomes more and more of a mandate to continue, so that in victory the consequences to date won't be in vain.

It's a valid viewpoint, but not an all excusing one. It does make for interesting comparison: tragedy changes Suzaku, but hardens Zero.



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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Going a little off-topic: Even with his own team, do you think Schneizel will rope Suzaku in on his side?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
He may already have. Heck, Lloyd's group has always been under Schneizel's command from the beginning. Add in the fact that Suzaku seems to be one of Schneizel's personal guards (he seems to always be there protecting him after all) they may have already come to an agreement of some sort.
Schneizel has already played in to Suzaku's goals, if you'll remember back to the first SAZ. I believe Cornelia and Schneizel both agreed that, while the SAZ was politically foolish of Euphie, as long as it pacified Area 11 then both considered it to effectively solve their problems. I always took that as a subtle indication that, even if he wasn't a true beleiver in it like Euphie, that Schneizel had thrown in some political support (if only for purely utilitarian reasons).
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Old 2008-06-25, 20:46   Link #2318
yezhanquan
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Schneizel's goals, as I see them, are
1) To kick Charles's butt / gain the throne
2) To outwit Zero

On 2), if he has indeed deduced Zero=Lelouch, then maybe, just maybe, he'll want to see how these two friends jump at each other's throats.
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Old 2008-06-25, 21:16   Link #2319
Blue_Mercy
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Wow, I can't remember the last time I disagreed with so many points in one post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post

Suzaku's selfish decision was in response to another purely selfish decision. Only one was a vindictive desire to make the whole world suffer for the fruit of his own policies, and the other was a selfish desire to not see people die for no reason. When it comes down to it, Suzaku's selfish choice was the only one that offered both choices to the people of Japan. The people who would choose to bow their heads and live with the occupiers had their chance, and those who would rather go down fighting could go and join the resistance. If a ten year old boy hadn't been selfish, no one would have been given either choice.
It would have been nice if Suzaku grew out of his childish reasoning which he hasn't, which, to be honest, has turned him into a Britannia bitch.

Quote:
Zero:
-Broke apart the largest resistance movement, one that had some legitimacy by including vestiges from the last Japanese government.
-Launched a rebellion, and then promptly let it fail to chase after his sister. Results were... counterproductive in terms of helping the Japanese.
-Getting a million people, largely his own private army, out of Japan.
-If you are talking about the JLF, he integrated in the only members who actually made a difference.

-Sorry but the Japanese fought willingly, knowing full well there would be consequences if they lost. How exactly did he know it would fail? He left it in Toudou's charge. I understand that losing a leader is important, but it should not be the deciding factor of a battle.

-Once again, it's only the volunteers that want to fight for Zero, if you remember from episode 1 the Japanese were praying for Zero's return, exemplified by the bunny girl clinging of a picture of Zero. He created a new country for them, how can you possibly dislike him for that?

Quote:
Suzaku:
-His status came close to reconciling the Elevens with Britannia, to the point that support was split between the Black Knights and the Honorary Britannians.
-Not once, but twice, helped oversee the establishment of the SAZ, which even Zero admitted would give peace to Japan. Both times, the SAZ was established with help from inside the Britannian nobility.
-Saved the second SAZ from being stillborn by peacefully removing the only credible rebel force from Japan.
-His status;
-I think you mean Euphemia and Nunnally's plan.
-I don't find a redeeming quality trait to be something as obvious as not ordering a massacre.

Quote:
Regardless of whether you think it reasonable or not, if you only want to go on results then hopelessly inept and naive Suzaku has been remarkably successful with views of peaceful change.
Yeah, daily executions of his countrymen were committed without him lifting a finger. We know how the Japanese feel about him, they HATE him.

Quote:
Foolishly devoted to their own plan? Everyone likes to point out the possible weaknesses in Suzaku's plans, but has anyone considered the problem with Lelouch's long-term sustainability? Such as how he's not only against a power that has and can again grind Japan into rubble, but is led by an acknowledgedly ruthless man who will soon have nuclear weapons?
Which is why we want to see him do it, Lelouch is the underdog and everyone except maybe a few people in this thread want to see him succeed.
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Old 2008-06-25, 21:22   Link #2320
Orga777
TRUE! Lelouch is dead! XD
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New Jersey
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy View Post
It would have been nice if Suzaku grew out of his childish reasoning which he hasn't, which, to be honest, has turned him into a Britannia bitch.
I don't think that is accurate at all. He is working in Britannia because he sees it as teh right thing to do.

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-If you are talking about the JLF, he integrated in the only members who actually made a difference.
That isn't true either. Their leader was a war-experienced general. The fact taht he wiped them out like that only to get a possible threat out of the way I don't think works real well. Besides, how do you think Toudou would feel if he ever finds out tat Zero was behind that? Probably not very happy.

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-Sorry but the Japanese fought willingly, knowing full well there would be consequences if they lost. How exactly did he know it would fail? He left it in Toudou's charge. I understand that losing a leader is important, but it should not be the deciding factor of a battle.
Ever here the old saying? Take down the leader and the rest will follow.

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-Once again, it's only the volunteers that want to fight for Zero, if you remember from episode 1 the Japanese were praying for Zero's return, exemplified by the bunny girl clinging of a picture of Zero. He created a new country for them, how can you possibly dislike him for that?
The only reason that is the case is because he pretty much shattered any hope for them with any other peaceful solution with Britannia with that whole Euphie disaster.

Quote:
Yeah, daily executions of his countrymen were committed without him lifting a finger. We know how the Japanese feel about him, they HATE him.
What could he do? He had no real power to DO anything about it, and it isn't like anybody with power would listen. There was a failed rebellion and they wanted to keep them in check from happening again.

Quote:
Which is why we want to see him do it, Lelouch is the underdog and everyone except maybe a few people in this thread want to see him succeed.
Lelouch isn't a true 'underdog' though. Heck Suzaku is more of an underdog because he has to overcome more to be accepted.
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