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Old 2008-06-26, 10:41   Link #2401
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
That isn't true at all. Lelouch was barking out orders over the radio to each and every person. Pretty much "go here, go there, shoot this, etc" The only objectives they had were told to them by Zero DURING the battle (capture the school and the media.)

Nobody knew his real plans, and everyone fell apart the moment he left and they all knew that they didn't stand a chance without Zero there because nobody knew what to do. Toudou didn't know what Zero wanted to get done after all.
I just went back to check quickly and he only told them to set up their command center as the school, Toudou was already directing the troops to the press and public security areas without prompting from Zero. Zero did tell Toudou he was going to attack the government region from the air with the Gawain and Toudou cautioned him not to rely too much on his machine.
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Old 2008-06-26, 10:42   Link #2402
DN24
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There are not that many people bashing Suzaku just for killing his father, although the point seems to be that Suzaku killed his father because he thought that Genbu's stance would result in alot of people dieing for basically a lost cause. Yet killing Genbu only resulted in more fighting as Japan was forced to surrender before it's military power was completely exhausted. If Suzaku didn't kill Genbu then the resistance movement would not be so active in Area 11.
I'm not against arm resistance,but dying with Genbu is meaningless.You should also think about the people who want to live,because of Suzaku action those who want to live got their chance,and those who want to fight can still fight..

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Zero did tell Toudou he was going to attack the government region from the air with the Gawain and Toudou cautioned him not to rely too much on his machine.
So,Toudo didn't know about Cornelia,correct?

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Pfft just admit you are jealous of his harem
Lol, Euphie alone >>>LL's harem
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Old 2008-06-26, 10:46   Link #2403
Orga777
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
I just went back to check quickly and he only told them to set up their command center as the school, Toudou was already directing the troops to the press and public security areas without prompting from Zero. Zero did tell Toudou he was going to attack the government region from the air with the Gawain and Toudou cautioned him not to rely too much on his machine.
Not only did he not know about Cornelia, he also doesn't know Zero's plans for dealing with enemy troops, or how to go about capturing the government. Even Deithard thought as much near the end of the episode when he analyzed the situation.
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Old 2008-06-26, 10:49   Link #2404
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
It didn't result in more fighting though. If he didn't stop it there would have been NO Japanese left at all.

Pfft. Lelouch is a putz. He hasn't so much as blushed in any awkward positions he finds himself in.
It was noted that the resistance in Area 11 is alot more fierce then in the other areas. And Britannia wasn't out to kill all the Japanese, Genbu may have opted for total resistance or whatever it was but that doesn't mean everyone that is able to hold a weapon will go fight the Britannians. In the end what the bashing is saying is that Suzaku wanted to prevent fighting yet only allowed for more fighting to happen.

Frankly it is like either choose a slow death or a quick death. It is not like the Japanese Liberation Front had much of a chance so really it was like the war except more drawn out.
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Old 2008-06-26, 10:53   Link #2405
Orga777
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
It was noted that the resistance in Area 11 is alot more fierce then in the other areas. And Britannia wasn't out to kill all the Japanese, Genbu may have opted for total resistance or whatever it was but that doesn't mean everyone that is able to hold a weapon will go fight the Britannians. In the end what the bashing is saying is that Suzaku wanted to prevent fighting yet only allowed for more fighting to happen.
The war would have dragged out for who knows how long, split the country in three parts, and every single part of the country would be demolished in the cross-fire. Civilians will have no where to go, and most of them will be killed in said cross-fire. The Japanese would have ceased to exist and the place would pretty much become a deserted wasteland. Is that really a better alternative?

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Frankly it is like either choose a slow death or a quick death. It is not like the Japanese Liberation Front had much of a chance so really it was like the war except more drawn out.
Again, that mentality of fight to the last man happened in real life Japan, and they were ready to go through with it. It DOESN'T work and nobody should want that.
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:00   Link #2406
Yorae_paladin1
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
The war would have dragged out for who knows how long, split the country in three parts, and every single part of the country would be demolished in the cross-fire. Civilians will have no where to go, and most of them will be killed in said cross-fire. The Japanese would have ceased to exist and the place would pretty much become a deserted wasteland. Is that really a better alternative?



Again, that mentality of fight to the last man happened in real life Japan, and they were ready to go through with it. It DOESN'T work and nobody should want that.
I was trying to get at that in short the japanese have a lot to be thankful to suzaku they fight one power instead of three. Had he not opted to kill Genbu then japan would nothing but a memory and if suzaku survived the scenario of being the last japanese is not something he would look foward too. To the powers the energy soruce they have is what is valueble to them the people are inconcequential.
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:04   Link #2407
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Not only did he not know about Cornelia, he also doesn't know Zero's plans for dealing with enemy troops, or how to go about capturing the government. Even Deithard thought as much near the end of the episode when he analyzed the situation.
Diethard's analysis at the end was that it wasn't that Toudou is an inept leader but rather Zero had the charisma to lead his troops. Although looking at the episode they likely did not know Zero had planned to use Cornelia. Still my point that Zero did not have to bark out orders for every move in the battle still stands. Infact he spent most of the battle either at Ashford talking to the student council or fighting Suzaku and Cornelia and questioning Cornelia and then getting attacked by the giant orange mecha.

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
The war would have dragged out for who knows how long, split the country in three parts, and every single part of the country would be demolished in the cross-fire. Civilians will have no where to go, and most of them will be killed in said cross-fire. The Japanese would have ceased to exist and the place would pretty much become a deserted wasteland. Is that really a better alternative?

Again, that mentality of fight to the last man happened in real life Japan, and they were ready to go through with it. It DOESN'T work and nobody should want that.
No it's not, I was only clarifying what most of the anti Suzaku father killing seems to be about, not contesting whether I agreed or not. And really Britannia was basically overwhelming the Japanese defence, they won one battle due to Toudou. It would not have dragged on for very long and had the Japanese army been completely crushed then they would not have been able to form the resistance to fight the Britannians for seven years.
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:05   Link #2408
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Again, that mentality of fight to the last man happened in real life Japan, and they were ready to go through with it. It DOESN'T work and nobody should want that.
The dead don't have to live in fear from oppression, from injustice, from torture, from anything at all.
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:07   Link #2409
demon_god04
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The dead don't feel happiness either... ofcourse one has to wonder if given the choice, what would the Japanese have chosen.
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:10   Link #2410
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
The dead don't feel happiness either... ofcourse one has to wonder if given the choice, what would the Japanese have chosen.
To surrender to the enemy? To be humiliated? Tortured? Oppressed? Live in fear? Unable to practice your religion, your beliefs, your culture? Unable to retain your identity, your rights, your ideology?

No thanks, being dead is better off.
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:12   Link #2411
Yorae_paladin1
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
To surrender to the enemy? To be humiliated? Tortured? Oppressed? Live in fear? Unable to practice your religion, your beliefs, your culture? Unable to retain your identity, your rights, your ideology?

No thanks, being dead is better off.
Which sadly makes any powers job easier no prisoners just kill everyone and thus the world revolves even if there is no justice.

Like I said the people were inconsequential. And I don't think britannia is above wiping out a people from the face of the earth.
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:12   Link #2412
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Well, apologies, Dyn, but obviously Suzaku didn't feel the same way. Now, if you were director, I'm sure you would have loved to see Suzaku refraining from doing the right thing and instead let a nation commit suicide, and therefore bring an early end to the series, but you're not, hm?
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:13   Link #2413
Orga777
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Diethard's analysis at the end was that it wasn't that Toudou is an inept leader but rather Zero had the charisma to lead his troops. Although looking at the episode they likely did not know Zero had planned to use Cornelia. Still my point that Zero did not have to bark out orders for every move in the battle still stands. Infact he spent most of the battle either at Ashford talking to the student council or fighting Suzaku and Cornelia and questioning Cornelia and then getting attacked by the giant orange mecha.
Then how come they basically collapsed after he left? How come each and every person KNEW they lost after Zero left when moments before they were ready to celebrate victory? They didn't know the details of the plan Zero had. Toudou may have pushed his troops intot he private sector without consulting Zero, but that is because he thought it was the right way to go about the battle. He was just guessing what Zero would want done.

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No it's not, I was only clarifying what most of the anti Suzaku father killing seems to be about, not contesting whether I agreed or not.
But they are wrong for thinking like that.

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And really Britannia was basically overwhelming the Japanese defence, they won one battle due to Toudou. It would not have dragged on for very long and had the Japanese army been completely crushed then they would not have been able to form the resistance to fight the Britannians for seven years.
Right. But that resistance wouldn't have existed in the first place if one child didn't do what he did. They would have been dead.

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Originally Posted by Dynastya
The dead don't have to live in fear from oppression, from injustice, from torture, from anything at all.
Right. They are just dead. Sooooo much better. Your thought process scares me and is border-lined radical. That is also a very dangerous way to think. We deal with people like that now. Ones that blow themselves up in buses that is.
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:28   Link #2414
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Then how come they basically collapsed after he left? How come each and every person KNEW they lost after Zero left when moments before they were ready to celebrate victory? They didn't know the details of the plan Zero had. Toudou may have pushed his troops intot he private sector without consulting Zero, but that is because he thought it was the right way to go about the battle. He was just guessing what Zero would want done.

But they are wrong for thinking like that.

Right. But that resistance wouldn't have existed in the first place if one child didn't do what he did. They would have been dead.

Right. They are just dead. Sooooo much better. Your thought process scares me and is border-lined radical. That is also a very dangerous way to think. We deal with people like that now. Ones that blow themselves up in buses that is.
Zero wasn't the only one with a strategy, Cornelia was drawing them in to the Government building and her troops mounted a counter attack while the Black Knights were being pounded on by the defences. Not all plans survive the first engagement with the enemy, Zero should have been there to rally and command his troops especially in a case like that, but still doesn't mean that his troops knew nothing of his strategy and that he was barking out orders for every move.

Right or Wrong is subjective, most seem to be arguing along the lines that Suzaku really only succeeded in creating more fighting with his actions.

It seems other Areas resisted until the end and it does not appear as if Britannia committed genocide on them either. And I don't really recall what Genbu's "staunch resistance" entail. It could be that he planned to put up a much more fierce resistance to force a more favourable surrender like Japan did in WW2.
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:29   Link #2415
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller View Post
Well, apologies, Dyn, but obviously Suzaku didn't feel the same way. Now, if you were director, I'm sure you would have loved to see Suzaku refraining from doing the right thing and instead letting a nation commit suicide, and therefore bring an early end to the series, but you're not, hm?
Is being alive any better? struggling each day just to scrounge up enough food to feed yourself and your family while they live with the constant fear of not knowing whether they would survive the next day.

Because each of us on this forum lives in a place where they don't have to worry like that we are unable to understand the plight of such people. And neither are we willing to go out of our way and try to help them effectively, just a monthly donation of 10 bucks or so etc and we consider ourselves as having done our bit for the suffering people.

I've lived in many third world countries where people live in so much poverty that it makes a homeless person on the streets of New York look like they are doing better.

In Code Geass, the Japanese live in ghettos (though I assume it's not as bad as the concentration camps of Nazi germany) where they have to struggle. Look at why they use the drug called refrain, so that they can live in an illusion that everything is alright for them, to escape reality where everything is not all right.

As I posted earlier about the Four Freedoms concept, yes I strongly believe in them that everyone on this planet has the undeniable unalienable Rights to live in Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, Freedom from Want and Freedom from Fear.

So yes, against tyranny in all their forms people need to fight them to the death, give it their all because only by paying with your courage, pain and blood can you buy what is called true freedom.

And as Lelouch said when he formed the Black Knights, they are here to fight on behalf of those who are unable to fight for themselves.
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:30   Link #2416
Dream_Traveller
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'True freedom' at the price of a whole nation being destroyed and its people wiped off the face of the earth. Lord above, for a faculty member, you don't display that much intellect, nor do you even consider what others say beforehand.
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:31   Link #2417
Dynastya
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'True freedom' at the price of a whole nation being destroyed and its people wiped off the face of the earth. Lord above, for a faculty member, you don't display that much intellect, nor do you even consider what others say beforehand.
The dead are free from everything.

Faculty member?
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:36   Link #2418
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And from saying that you were a 'teacher' yesterday, you don't grasp what the term 'faculty member' means?

Well, unless I'm mistaking you for someone else, then I duly apologize.
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:40   Link #2419
Orga777
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Zero wasn't the only one with a strategy, Cornelia was drawing them in to the Government building and her troops mounted a counter attack while the Black Knights were being pounded on by the defences. Not all plans survive the first engagement with the enemy, Zero should have been there to rally and command his troops especially in a case like that, but still doesn't mean that his troops knew nothing of his strategy and that he was barking out orders for every move.
What did his troops know then? Without his guidance, they fell apart. Some even thought that they stood no chance without Zero there.

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Right or Wrong is subjective, most seem to be arguing along the lines that Suzaku really only succeeded in creating more fighting with his actions.
That doesn't make any sense though.

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It seems other Areas resisted until the end and it does not appear as if Britannia committed genocide on them either. And I don't really recall what Genbu's "staunch resistance" entail. It could be that he planned to put up a much more fierce resistance to force a more favourable surrender like Japan did in WW2.
Or he was going to fight like Tojo until everyone was dead. I think Lelouch's assessment was correct. Japan would still be fighting a war with a demolished country that is now slit in three separate parts.

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Originally Posted by Dynastya
Is being alive any better? struggling each day just to scrounge up enough food to feed yourself and your family while they live with the constant fear of not knowing whether they would survive the next day.
So being dead is a better solution?
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I've lived in many third world countries where people live in so much poverty that it makes a homeless person on the streets of New York look like they are doing better.

In Code Geass, the Japanese live in ghettos (though I assume it's not as bad as the concentration camps of Nazi germany) where they have to struggle. Look at why they use the drug called refrain, so that they can live in an illusion that everything is alright for them, to escape reality where everything is not all right.
Nobody is saying what Britannia is doing is right. But Suzaku wants to CHANGE that. He was making progress too until Zero screwed it all up. That is the thing, we all know that Britannia does evil things, but we also know that not all of them are heartless and that change CAN happen. Continuing to fight does not help and just causes more problems.

By what you are saying and by your thought process the Civil Rights Movement should have just been another Civil War. If you think that then you need some help.

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So yes, against tyranny in all their forms people need to fight them to the death, give it their all because only by paying with your courage, pain and blood can you buy what is called true freedom.
So you don't mind an entire nation getting crushed into dust. Okay.
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And as Lelouch said when he formed the Black Knights, they are here to fight on behalf of those who are unable to fight for themselves.
You DO know that was just to sugarcoat and trick everyone into following him for his own selfish desires right?
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:43   Link #2420
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller View Post
And from saying that you were a 'teacher' yesterday, you don't grasp what the term 'faculty member' means?

Well, unless I'm mistaking you for someone else, then I duly apologize.
I said I use to teach, never said the students I teach. And I was never a member of any faculty, I was an outside guest teacher they invited because of my specializations. A specialist.
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