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Old 2008-04-14, 22:54   Link #261
Voduar
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Originally Posted by scifijimmy View Post
It was not impossible however for non-nobility to marry into royalty as marianne was a commoner. Just highly unlikely with many MAJOR factors going against a Euphie-Suzaku match.
Aherm, perhaps you aren't aware of this historical artifact, but you'll notice something, especially amongst Europeans:Amongst nobles, the men may marry out of race, but I defy you to find a female noble that married into an oppressed people. It just was not done. Now, with Nunnally, a fallen noble, that might just work, though I am sure wierdness would've ensued.

With Marianne keep in mind she is like wife 80ish, and at this point only the most dedicated of noble watcher is paying attention. I mean, for all we know wife 98 is a panda, once you get that ridiculuous. Also, she still got shot for it, so it might be an issue where the Emperor can break taboos, but no one else gets away with it.
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Old 2008-04-14, 23:19   Link #262
Klashikari
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Originally Posted by Marsala View Post
Suzaku doesn't trust Lelouch. Suzaku thinks that Lelouch is a monster who forced Euphemia to commit a massacre and then murdered her in cold blood when he was done with her, all to advance his opinions. In Suzaku's mind, Lelouch is the very last person on Earth who deserves to be in control of the Empire. And really, who can blame him? Lelouch's only excuse is the feeble, "It was an accident," which, while being true, is so pathetic that Lelouch didn't even try to use it.
I'm not really convinced that Suzaku considers Lelouch as a "monster", since he still accept the fact he is his "friend".
Aside of that point, even if Lelouch is "truely" a monster, the Emperor is nothing short "merrier" than him: he is basically the very source of all the suffering for both guys, but also the whole world.
I don't think the comparison is even possible between Lelouch and Charles.
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Old 2008-04-14, 23:38   Link #263
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I'm not really convinced that Suzaku considers Lelouch as a "monster", since he still accept the fact he is his "friend".
Aside of that point, even if Lelouch is "truely" a monster, the Emperor is nothing short "merrier" than him: he is basically the very source of all the suffering for both guys, but also the whole world.
I don't think the comparison is even possible between Lelouch and Charles.
I'm thinking that Suzaku 'friendship', like his 'justification' of his father's murder, is possibly at this juncture, an element of self-reassurement. By affirming and questioning the line of "we're friends, right?", he justifies his betrayal of Lelouch among other things. As it is, they're pretty much at the point where they can accept that only one man will stand between the both of them. Lelouch's shot clearly aimed Suzaku's head, while Suzaku clearly doesn't give a damn if Charles went and executed Lelouch instead of the bait thing.

And comparison between Lelouch and Charles... it's pretty ironic, really. If geass is a representation of a power formed of the soul, etc, then Lelouch's geass, which enforces absolute authority and dominance that disregards one's own will (( but retains personality )) can be said to be worse than Charles's, whom for all its similarity that has the ability to put someone in a position of doing what Lelouch's geass does as well, gives an illusion of free will through the illusion that it is who that person is. Both are evil, but it's strangely amusing how Charles seems like the lesser evil.
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Old 2008-04-15, 00:13   Link #264
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I'm not really convinced that Suzaku considers Lelouch as a "monster", since he still accept the fact he is his "friend".
Aside of that point, even if Lelouch is "truely" a monster, the Emperor is nothing short "merrier" than him: he is basically the very source of all the suffering for both guys, but also the whole world.
I don't think the comparison is even possible between Lelouch and Charles.
I argue that Suzaku has already reached a point of no return. Being complacent in having Lelouch's memory wiped clean might even be worse than if the punishment was execution. Consider that Suzaku had no way of knowing if Lelouch would ever regain his memory. Now imagine having your memory erased. Even using his twisted moral system, it would be difficult for me to accept that Suzaku still considers Lelouch his 'friend.'
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Old 2008-04-15, 01:01   Link #265
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Originally Posted by Juvyniled View Post
Just as well, that's almost as if to say that Suzaku knew Lelouch would even be of any value to the Emperor.
No, it's common sense. You know he's the commander of the rebel army AND the son of the emperor. Even if he didn't have any value, it wouldn't hurt any to bring him in front of the emperor and try and sell him for a new rank. At the very worst, the emperor doesn't want him and you can kill him yourself. At the very beast, the emperor gives you the rank and you still get to kill him.

As for Suzakus comment to Lelouch about them being friends, I think he was being mocking to Lelouch because at that point, I doubt there's much friendship left in them. Suzakus frame of mind could have been that as his friend, Lelouch betrayed him, killed his love, joined the rebellion which he fought against, so as a 'friend', he would give Lelouch to his worst enemy.
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Old 2008-04-15, 09:56   Link #266
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
As for Suzakus comment to Lelouch about them being friends, I think he was being mocking to Lelouch because at that point, I doubt there's much friendship left in them. Suzakus frame of mind could have been that as his friend, Lelouch betrayed him, killed his love, joined the rebellion which he fought against, so as a 'friend', he would give Lelouch to his worst enemy.
That's how I saw it which is why I got a chuckle at Lelouch in pure desperation saying "you're selling out a friend" to him. Suzaku has won the verbal contests with Lelouch since 25+ easily.
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Old 2008-04-15, 10:08   Link #267
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
No, it's common sense. You know he's the commander of the rebel army AND the son of the emperor. Even if he didn't have any value, it wouldn't hurt any to bring him in front of the emperor and try and sell him for a new rank. At the very worst, the emperor doesn't want him and you can kill him yourself. At the very beast, the emperor gives you the rank and you still get to kill him.

As for Suzakus comment to Lelouch about them being friends, I think he was being mocking to Lelouch because at that point, I doubt there's much friendship left in them. Suzakus frame of mind could have been that as his friend, Lelouch betrayed him, killed his love, joined the rebellion which he fought against, so as a 'friend', he would give Lelouch to his worst enemy.
You know Suzaku could've just had Lelouch "geassed" the Emperor to put him under their control...then you solve of changing the Empire from within.

But then again we wouldn't have R2....

Quote:
And comparison between Lelouch and Charles... it's pretty ironic, really. If geass is a representation of a power formed of the soul, etc, then Lelouch's geass, which enforces absolute authority and dominance that disregards one's own will (( but retains personality )) can be said to be worse than Charles's, whom for all its similarity that has the ability to put someone in a position of doing what Lelouch's geass does as well, gives an illusion of free will through the illusion that it is who that person is. Both are evil, but it's strangely amusing how Charles seems like the lesser evil.
Not to mention whose Lelouch's opponent in the end is still being left ambigiuous, it may not even be the Emperor.
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Old 2008-04-15, 13:33   Link #268
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
No, it's common sense. You know he's the commander of the rebel army AND the son of the emperor. Even if he didn't have any value, it wouldn't hurt any to bring him in front of the emperor and try and sell him for a new rank. At the very worst, the emperor doesn't want him and you can kill him yourself. At the very beast, the emperor gives you the rank and you still get to kill him.

As for Suzakus comment to Lelouch about them being friends, I think he was being mocking to Lelouch because at that point, I doubt there's much friendship left in them. Suzakus frame of mind could have been that as his friend, Lelouch betrayed him, killed his love, joined the rebellion which he fought against, so as a 'friend', he would give Lelouch to his worst enemy.
Then somewhere along the lines, there has to be a contradiction. An interesting assumption brought up earlier had taken into consideration that potentially the Emperor would scoff at the notion that the son he exiled could be the leader of the army (we already have good reason to assume that he already knows).

Ne, ne, hontou desu ka?
So it is a fact then that Suzaku's were motivated entirely by selfishness? I do not doubt that this could be a possibility (and the likelihood of seeing it play out as such is high), but it isn't entirely a concrete statement. As it stands, we've clearly seen and heard what Suzaku has done and said, but to assume that he is a straightforward and non-complex character, he'd be lacking of the common sense to come to the conclusion that he could negotiate terms on which he would deliver the leader of the opposing army to the Emperor for a higher title.

Now, following your line of reasoning (which is not absurd whatsoever), I believe this to be the more suitable scenario:
V.V. convinces Suzaku to bring Lelouch to the Emperor (and somewhere along the conversation, V.V. would have likely implied that in doing so would have allowed Suzaku to "change the world within" etcetera, etcetera). Many of you are giving Suzaku much more credit than I had ever at any point (credit to his intelligence and capacity to process complex scenarios for that matter) even if I do suspect many of you attempt to use this event as a means of exemplifying yet another potentially negative aspect of Suzaku's character. This is recalling the many prior arguments that extensively dictated that Suzaku's character was solely out for revenge. By that reasoning, Suzaku would have been satisfied even with the death of his "former" (I don't agree that the relationship has become a hollow shell) friend.
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Old 2008-04-15, 14:26   Link #269
evil|plushie
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It could very well be possible that V.V arranged a meeting with the Emperor beforehand, but I think the decision to ask for a promotion was one that Suzaku made by himself, since the Emperor seems surprised and amused by his request. edit: Although there's still no indication if Suzaku knew Lelouch would live or not when brought before the Emperor.
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Old 2008-04-15, 21:05   Link #270
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Sigh, Lelouch went through so much trouble to save his friendship with Suzaku, then gets tortured for his trouble. Now Suzaku has crossed the line, but I guess you could argue Lelouch crossed it first killing Euphie.(that just brings a whole bunch of blaming that ends up no where)

Probably had a conversation with V.V. who suggests he get a position with KoR.

Anyway getting back to Suzaku character discussion, it's not hard to understand why people are so angry seeing Suzaku act the way he does, but come on once a hypocrite always a hypocrite. It's a part of Suzaku I've come to expect and I didn't think it would go away.
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Old 2008-04-15, 21:07   Link #271
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I did, I thought his sir frown a lot meant he got rid of his naivety but he still spout all that crock about friendship and changing within while doing the exact opposite. Well, at least it's 'different' from his preaching so it can't get any worst as far as I can see
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Old 2008-04-15, 21:08   Link #272
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Well, there is the issue of how much time passed between him defeating Lelouch and him bringing him to the Emperor. V.V. appears to be able to teleport so that would certainly explain it though we have no confirmation yet. I'm still waiting for V.V. to make an appearence.
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Old 2008-04-15, 21:09   Link #273
ashlay
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
I did, I thought his sir frown a lot meant he got rid of his naivety but he still spout all that crock about friendship and changing within while doing the exact opposite. Well, at least it's 'different' from his preaching so it can't get any worst as far as I can see
now now, he never said anything about using the wrong means being pointless this time around.

His current stance is quite a lot different from his old, psychotic one, even if on the surface there are similarities.

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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
Well, there is the issue of how much time passed between him defeating Lelouch and him bringing him to the Emperor. V.V. appears to be able to teleport so that would certainly explain it though we have no confirmation yet. I'm still waiting for V.V. to make an appearence.
we can't be assured of the teleportation thing at the moment though, what with a Britannian spy running around with that sort of power at the moment.
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Old 2008-04-15, 21:11   Link #274
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
I did, I thought his sir frown a lot meant he got rid of his naivety but he still spout all that crock about friendship and changing within while doing the exact opposite. Well, at least it's 'different' from his preaching so it can't get any worst as far as I can see
Don't forget his spouting about rules, when Zero was in the Chinese Embassy.
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Old 2008-04-15, 21:13   Link #275
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Can't believe I didn't notice that! What is this, the man has the Britannian guide to being a lap dog engineered into his brain or something?
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Old 2008-04-15, 21:14   Link #276
Dann of Thursday
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we can't be assured of the teleportation thing at the moment though, what with a Britannian spy running around with that sort of power at the moment.
Didn't FO confirm it was teleportation and that it was just for fun?
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Old 2008-04-15, 21:19   Link #277
ashlay
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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
Didn't FO confirm it was teleportation and that it was just for fun?
nope. where did you hear that?

well, not discounting that V.V. can teleport. just have to be wary.
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Old 2008-04-15, 21:36   Link #278
Dann of Thursday
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nope. where did you hear that?

well, not discounting that V.V. can teleport. just have to be wary.
I'm not sure if it was FO, but I'm pretty sure it was something I heard from Koshimizu or someone who could be trusted about such info.
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Old 2008-04-15, 21:48   Link #279
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I'm not sure if it was FO, but I'm pretty sure it was something I heard from Koshimizu or someone who could be trusted about such info.
was probably just random speculation/discussion then. :3
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Old 2008-04-16, 10:10   Link #280
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Alright, going to write my Suzaku character analysis/biography trying to avoid as much bias as possible.

Up front, I will tell you I don't like Suzaku's character for reasons I will mention.

Credit for biographical information: Alright, going to write my Suzaku character analysis/biography trying to avoid as much bias as possible.

Name: Kururugi Suzaku

Born: July 10, 2000

It is a fact that staff loves to create parallels, and one of the main ones is the opposite personalities of Suzaku and Lelouch.

Suzaku is the son of the former Prime Minister of Japan Kururugi Genbu. As a child Suzaku was a proud Japanese who hated all Britannia until he met Lelouch and Nunnally who were sent to his home as political hostages. The three of them quickly became friends until Britannia invaded. During the invasion Suzaku's father had decided to fight Britannia until the very end, but that was cut short when Suzaku killed his father causing confusion within Japan and they were forced to surrender. When Suzaku walked through the destroyed village, his attitude was opposite that of Lelouch's. He was very emotional, which showed another parallel between his and Lelouch's character.

After the war had ended Suzaku went to the Britannian headquarters, where I his personality has completely changed. He went from being a proud Japanese to a Britannian slave who believes that despite discrimination or the red tape of bureaucracy that one can change things from within.(And I have to ask myself where can one find a drug that can make one so delusional Sorry had to throw that in.) He also believes that one must abide by any and all rules. As such he is someone who does not believe that the end justifies the means, which his actions later refute but I will get to that later. I believe that much of this can be attributed to carrying the burden of killing his father.

Then something happens to Suzaku in Episode 5 which will come to have a dramatic impact on the rest of the series, which is he meets Euphemia Li Britannia. She treats him kindness which later turns into love. Suzaku becomes Euphemia's knight and for awhile everything is going fine with things maybe starting to change a little within Britannia despite it being a small area, until it comes crashing down in Episode 22. I've said it before but when Euphemia shot the old man in the front row. "The shot heard around the world would be appropriate for this moment since the whole world was watching." When that happened several things would change, Suzaku X Euphemia ended, all of Suzaku's good will disappeared and he became a traitor to all Japanese, this also changed Suzaku who buried his past self with Euphemia along with his father's watch and turned into a boiling pot of rage which would not be satisfied with just killing Zero but making him suffer for killing Euphemia.

Getting back to the earlier discussion, I have to think that the writers wanted to make Suzaku into a hated character, because of all the times he contradicts himself. He's in the military to prevent people from dying, but accepts "kill everyone" orders. He gets shot in the back by his commander, but does not even mention it. He knows poison gas wasn't released but accepts it as a reason for the ghetto being destroyed. He accuses Zero of being a murderer when he already is one. He rejoices when his friends are saved yet faults the ones who saved them. He claims the Black Knights are acting out of self-satisfaction when it is later revealed it is what Suzaku has been doing, trying to act in penance of what he did to his father.
^
|
|
Realize this is not opinion based, but fact based.

Edit: With this comment I was referring to the paragraph just above this statement; discussing the actions that Suzaku takes not the entire post. Sorry for the confusion.


I do not know what Suzaku's character hopes to achieve, but it's hard to think that despite Suzaku being at the bed side of the one he loved until she died his suffering has ended.

Last edited by Blue_Mercy; 2008-04-16 at 12:03.
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