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Old 2008-04-16, 11:34   Link #281
Juvyniled
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy View Post
Realize this is not opinion based, but fact based.
Hehe, this single line really got me there. It's more of opinionated comment with applications of factual statements.

Unfortunately, while you try to maintain an unbiased attitude, you're still adopting Lelouch's perspective (or more specificly, one greatly in favor of Lelouch's objective and greatly opposed to Suzaku's).

At this point, there's nothing wrong with being biased. If you can be biased but maintain a reasonable argument, or contend against other arguments with your own evidence, then it's perfectly fine.

For one particular point that you mentioned, you stated that Suzaku became a traitor to the Japanese people. If Suzaku being in opposition to Japanese rebellion is treachery, then by that line of thought, he has already been a traitor. By that same reasoning, I could also contend that Lelouch or rather Zero, was at one point a traitor to Japan when he had opposed the JLF. Now I know that I will receive a lot of counter-arguments for making that comparison, but consider this: At that very moment, which if I recall correctly was before Zero's declaration of "fighting for justice," who else would have fought for Japan's freedom? Mind you, they are radical and extreme, but if you take into consideration that no other major rebel group has proposed to the Eleven people the same idea.... then that would essentially be quite appealing to them (to many if not all). What I am factoring in is the animosity between Britannian and Eleven people.

Now, here is where my opinion comes in on the matter. Of course I believe as many do, that in that circumstance Lelouch was no traitor. He did what was necessary and reasonable for ALL people. Imagine what the world then would have reverted to if the JLF group had been in fact successful (whether acquiring their demands or executing the hostages). That would have major implications on society, and there would be essentially no constraint on what one group would do to another then (Britannia vs. Area 11). Just as well, if you feel that Suzaku was a traitor, then you are entitled to that opinion by all means. But to say that it is a fact that he is a traitor is ambiguous at best. He did not go out of his way to directly oppose or oppress(sp?) the 11 people, but rather, he did what he felt was necessary, which was to suppress the rebel forces, and especially capture the individual who had killed a royal princess (and not just any random princess, but one who he had close ties with and was in support of his ideals).

Mind you... there has essentially been no treachery (if we must refer to defintion of it: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty). Not even Lelouch becoming Zero is a betrayal of Suzaku's trust, because he has never once used Suzaku's friendship against him.
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Old 2008-04-16, 11:39   Link #282
evil|plushie
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It's kinda hard to write a purely factual summary of Suzaku's character cause of his psychological issues. Factually however, it doesn't sound too good either.

Facts
-Bullied Lelouch
-Made friends with Lelouch and Nanali eventually
-Killed his father as a child because he thought it would save Japan
-Joined the Army.
-Became a Knight.
-Watched his princess die.
-Turned in Zero for the Knight of Rounds position.
-????

edit: Oh right, forgot to add he saved Lelouch in the very first episode too. And was bullied as an 11 in Ashford. Can run on walls and outrun gun bullets.
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Old 2008-04-16, 11:50   Link #283
Koshimizu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
Didn't FO confirm it was teleportation and that it was just for fun?
*cough* FO confirmed that V.V. teleported those 4 to Kaminejima at the end of Ep18.
Nothing said about Ep25.
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Old 2008-04-16, 14:25   Link #284
Dann of Thursday
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Originally Posted by Koshimizu View Post
*cough* FO confirmed that V.V. teleported those 4 to Kaminejima at the end of Ep18.
Nothing said about Ep25.
Well, with that evidence in mind I would assume he was responsible for doing it in the finale. I wonder if he can only teleport to and from the ruins or an area like it.
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Old 2008-04-16, 14:28   Link #285
ashlay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
Well, with that evidence in mind I would assume he was responsible for doing it in the finale. I wonder if he can only teleport to and from the ruins or an area like it.
would that mean Ashford Academy is built on a cursed Indian graveyard?
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Old 2008-04-16, 14:33   Link #286
Dann of Thursday
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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
would that mean Ashford Academy is built on a cursed Indian graveyard?
No, otherwise the Avalon is cursed as well. I mean that he uses that as a focal point and that he can only teleport back to that place instead of going from the school to the Avalon or something. He can also teleport people to the place if he chooses to. It may not be all him at all. Perhaps the temple in is the source of it and V.V. being what he is allows him to utilize it.

I'm curious as to how much contact V.V. has had with Suzaku and whether that has been influencing him at all.
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Old 2008-04-16, 18:09   Link #287
Masterkeyes2
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What I am curious about is how far Suzaku is really willing to prove his loyatly. What I mean is that is he willing to kill an innocent now if he is under orders? Heres a good example I have in mind.

What if he was in the Special Forces group or Secret Intelligence group is both episode 1's of season 1 and 2 respectively. Would he resort to killing any witnesses and burning people alive just to wipe away evidence, even if those witnesses were just small children? Also what about the Student Council and his "friends" at school? Would he kill them if he was told so?

That is what will truly define him in my eyes.

On a side note: what happened to that pyramid's like thing in episode 19 and what do you think it is? I wonder if that has anything to do with maybe opening the door on Kameniji (I assume it's a door). Maybe that has something to do with how V.V. can get around.
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Old 2008-04-16, 18:11   Link #288
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterkeyes2 View Post
What I am curious about is how far Suzaku is really willing to prove his loyatly. What I mean is that is he willing to kill an innocent now if he is under orders? Heres a good example I have in mind.
Suzaku had been invading Europe in the last year. I would say that's quite willing to kill innocent people.
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Old 2008-04-16, 18:16   Link #289
KrimzonStriker
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Britannia is in Europe, from what we can gather of that scene during Zero's speech, while Suzaku specifically is said to be along the El Alamain front in Egypt right now. Wonder if we'll finally get to see him in action this episode >_>
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Old 2008-04-16, 18:17   Link #290
Dann of Thursday
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I thought Britannia was in America? Or is that just the capital?
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Old 2008-04-16, 18:20   Link #291
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No no no, I meant in the war with the EU, during that scene with all the EU knightmare frames lying in a wreck and from what I can surmise about the typical rural village background during Zero's speech about being sad and stuff, I would presume that Britannia has already made landfall in Europe right now.
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Old 2008-04-16, 18:22   Link #292
Dann of Thursday
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Oh, that was what you meant. I think Schneizal is there attempting to work things out, but has Suzaku in reserve in case things go bad.
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Old 2008-04-16, 18:23   Link #293
KrimzonStriker
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At El Alamain according to Newtype though >_>
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Old 2008-04-16, 18:46   Link #294
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I heard somewhere before (I think it was either Krimzon or Dann that said this) that the EU is currentley and I quote "Having there front door being banged down by the Empire while the Chinese Federation are fumbling with the lock on the back." That said is Egypt part of the EU? I have been wondering who controlled Africa.
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Old 2008-04-16, 18:48   Link #295
KrimzonStriker
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EU has Africa, or should I say had Africa according to the map at the beginning of Turn 2. The Chinese Federation seems to be expanding slowly into the EU territory of Russia from what I can gather in the article in combination with the map >_>
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Old 2008-04-16, 21:20   Link #296
mistyken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Suzaku had been invading Europe in the last year. I would say that's quite willing to kill innocent people.
will his "loyalty" goes as far as harming Nanali for the purpose of stopping the black knights/zero?

Quote:
Mind you... there has essentially been no treachery (if we must refer to defintion of it: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty). Not even Lelouch becoming Zero is a betrayal of Suzaku's trust, because he has never once used Suzaku's friendship against him.
In suzaku's point of view, he did get betray by Lelouch. He trusted Lelouch even though he suspects that Lelouch might be Zero. He thought Lelouch would not go as far as harming his sibling, but he was wrong. After V.V told him about Geass, he thought that Lelouch is absolutely evil in orchestrating the death of Euphie. He must've thought Lelouch knew everything and had everything planned.

but in fact, it was a tragic accident
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Old 2008-04-16, 21:31   Link #297
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by mistyken View Post
will his "loyalty" goes as far as harming Nanali for the purpose of stopping the black knights/zero?
As far as Suzaku's concerned, his hands are clean as long as he doesn't do the harming personally. So he would have no problem letting someone ripping Nunnally's fingers out one by one as long as he is out of earshot.
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Old 2008-04-17, 00:01   Link #298
evil|plushie
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Hmm, does Suzaku even know Nanali is with the Emperor? If so, is he watching out for her? Although that would be hard to do when you're fighting in the EU
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Old 2008-04-17, 00:14   Link #299
ashlay
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Hmm, does Suzaku even know Nanali is with the Emperor? If so, is he watching out for her? Although that would be hard to do when you're fighting in the EU
If he has time to be fraternizing with the Rounds, he clearly isn't looking out for her that much. >_<
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Old 2008-04-17, 00:28   Link #300
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Hmm, does Suzaku even know Nanali is with the Emperor? If so, is he watching out for her? Although that would be hard to do when you're fighting in the EU
The very fact that VV was the last person who had custody of Nunnally means Suzaku wouldn't have been "watching out for her". Quite simply, Suzaku is completely apathetic of any and every crime Britannia commits, so he would leave Nunnally in the Emperor's "capable hands" the same way he handed over Lelouch.
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