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Old 2008-07-16, 21:42   Link #3801
Orga777
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
That was before Zero and the Black Knights were recognized by other nations in the world as a political body. The United States of Japan are now recognized and even have allies. Regardless of what Britannia thinks, now that the rest of the world acknowledges them then Black Knights taken prisoner fall under those rules.
Except to Britannia they are nothing more than rouges and traitors and don't have to recognize them as a real nation. That is like saying if the United States took back a traitor from their country that they wouldn't be punished. If anything, Kallen is lucky she isn't killed for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist
It didn't see them as a real nation when they were terrorists within their own borders. It's quite a different matter when they control actual territory.
lol. The only territory they controls is a tiny little artificial island inside of Chinese territory. Hardly anything to say actual control over.
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Old 2008-07-16, 21:44   Link #3802
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but during WWII Soviet prisoners were not treated well compared to allied troops under Germany since the Soviet Union never signed/agreed with those consitutions regarding prisoner treatment.

So USJ maybe recognized but unless they start negotiating and signing agreements and treaties with other nations including Britannia then they won't fall under the official status category (So for Kallen it's a fine line).
Didn't he sign treaties with other nations in episode 12?
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Old 2008-07-16, 21:45   Link #3803
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
Didn't he sign treaties with other nations in episode 12?
Just China, I think. The other countries came in later, off-screen.
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Old 2008-07-16, 21:50   Link #3804
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
Didn't he sign treaties with other nations in episode 12?
Well Britannia is one he needs to get to the table to sign some stuff if he wants to be officially recognized (And have his POWs treated fairely)
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Old 2008-07-16, 21:52   Link #3805
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Well Britannia is one he needs to get to the table to sign some stuff if he wants to be officially recognized (And have his POWs treated fairely)
So Suzaku's actions are justifiable if he wants to get information on Zero so he can avoid any conflict and not just torturing her for the hell of it
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:10   Link #3806
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
So Suzaku's actions are justifiable if he wants to get information on Zero so he can avoid any conflict and not just torturing her for the hell of it
But is torture ever truly justifyable, friend? It's something that means that you may permantently injure the one you're using it on, makign him/her sufferign in the process as well. and the person in question may still keep quiet or the information might turn out to be inaccurate. For example, if everything Suzaku gets out of his refrain-torture (assuming that he does it) is lots of talk on Kallens part on her happy days with her mother and brother, then all he will have done would be to have needlessly inflicted suffering upon Kallen. We can agree that he wouldn't be doing it for his own enjoyment or something, true, but as I said before, if he truly does it and uses it as a sort of "the end justified the means" excuse, then he'll be getting closer to be as morally deprived as one could say that Lelouch is - it'd truly move him further away from the image of him as a "good guy" that we've had so far for sure.
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:15   Link #3807
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
lol. The only territory they controls is a tiny little artificial island inside of Chinese territory. Hardly anything to say actual control over.
Fair point, but they were legally exiled from the country. Certain standards apply if they're captured in battle outside te country.
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:17   Link #3808
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku View Post
But is torture ever truly justifyable, friend? It's something that means that you may permantently injure the one you're using it on, makign him/her sufferign in the process as well. and the person in question may still keep quiet or the information might turn out to be inaccurate. For example, if everything Suzaku gets out of his refrain-torture (assuming that he does it) is lots of talk on Kallens part on her happy days with her mother and brother, then all he will have done would be to have needlessly inflicted suffering upon Kallen. We can agree that he wouldn't be doing it for his own enjoyment or something, true, but as I said before, if he truly does it and uses it as a sort of "the end justified the means" excuse, then he'll be getting closer to be as morally deprived as one could say that Lelouch is - it'd truly move him further away from the image of him as a "good guy" that we've had so far for sure.
The thing with the Refrain really doesn't make any sense sice it wouldn't accomplish anything since I doubt all the happy times she had was killing and slaughtering people with the BK with Zero as leader since most of the times with Lelouch (excluding the moment in episode 9) aren't particularly happy so yeah that was a stupid move on his part but we still don't know if he'll go that far
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:22   Link #3809
Orga777
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Fair point, but they were legally exiled from the country. Certain standards apply if they're captured in battle outside te country.
Not really. Since the CF were the ones that captured her AND gave her to Britannia. All standards applied are now moot. Also, she was captured during a battle that they started by capturing the Empress and causing commotion where Britannian citizens were.
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:23   Link #3810
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Not really. Since the CF were the ones that captured her AND gave her to Britannia. All standards applied are now moot. Also, she was captured during a battle that they started by capturing the Empress and causing commotion where Britannian citizens were.
But it wasn't Britannian territory. They intervened in the affairs of another nation and got a prisoner out of it. They can't treat her as if she's some internal problem.
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:26   Link #3811
Var
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
But it wasn't Britannian territory. They intervened in the affairs of another nation and got a prisoner out of it. They can't treat her as if she's some internal problem.
The Order is also recognized as a political body by the international stage. As such, she is by default afforded rights of a PoW.
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:32   Link #3812
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
The thing with the Refrain really doesn't make any sense sice it wouldn't accomplish anything since I doubt all the happy times she had was killing and slaughtering people with the BK with Zero as leader since most of the times with Lelouch (excluding the moment in episode 9) aren't particularly happy so yeah that was a stupid move on his part but we still don't know if he'll go that far
Well, Suzaku isn't very smart, so if all he heard of it or if all he knows about Refrain is that "it brings back memories", he might think that simply giving her some will make her bable away if Lelouch is really Zero or not... or something. Though it might be simpler than that, of course. It might just be a scare tactic on his part.. Or even blackmail (I can see him going all "If you don't tell me who Zero is, then I'm going to use this on your mother!" .

We'll see what his intentions are in the upcoming episodes though. and even if he's serious, there's of course the chance of there being an interruption of some kind
Spoiler for spoiler for the next episode):
. Either way, if he really does it, then that's not a plus for him. But, heck... If they say that Lelouch and Suzaku are both two sides of the same coin, then, with Lelouch's recent temporarily (hopefully) shift towards evil, maybe we can hope for Suzaku to take a temporarily shift towards good as well, with the next episode.
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:34   Link #3813
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
So Suzaku's actions are justifiable if he wants to get information on Zero so he can avoid any conflict and not just torturing her for the hell of it
I just pointed out the facts from what I can see. Aside from being wrong, I do not see Refrain being anything useful for extracting information but if the writers want it to be then I guess it would be.
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:37   Link #3814
Orga777
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
But it wasn't Britannian territory. They intervened in the affairs of another nation and got a prisoner out of it. They can't treat her as if she's some internal problem.
No they didn't. They intervened on China's permission. Hell, it was the CF's idea. Or at least the Eunuch idea. Since Xing-Ke gave her to teh Britannians, all rights go to Britannian views.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Var
The Order is also recognized as a political body by the international stage. As such, she is by default afforded rights of a PoW.
Not true. Has Britannia signed any agreement for that? Or came out and stated that USJ is a real nation? I think NOT. In Britannian views, she is a captured traitor right now.
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:40   Link #3815
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I just pointed out the facts from what I can see. Aside from being wrong, I do not see Refrain being anything useful for extracting information but if the writers want it to be then I guess it would be.
Well, nobody is saying that him using refrain on her would give away anything useful, it might just be what Suzaku thinks it might.

But I've thought that Suzaku using refrain on Kallen would (or was/is is planned to be) be giving writers an excuse to give us more insight in her past and the like - since Lelouch appears to ge going down the memory lane next episode (literally, judging by the preview ), they could do the same thing with Kallen at the same time...
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:44   Link #3816
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku View Post
Well, nobody is saying that him using refrain on her would give away anything useful, it might just be what Suzaku thinks it might.
Well like I said the guy has probably "snapped" and is just plain insane right now.

Quote:
But I've thought that Suzaku using refrain on Kallen would (or was/is is planned to be) be giving writers an excuse to give us more insight in her past and the like - since Lelouch appears to ge going down the memory lane next episode (literally, judging by the preview ), they could do the same thing with Kallen at the same time...
Suzaku, "STOP STOP STOP too much information too much!" LOL (Hint: a comic awhile back where it showed Lelouch geassing Kallen and it brings her sorta back in the past, saying "okay oni-chan")
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:48   Link #3817
Var
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Suzaku, "STOP STOP STOP too much information too much!" LOL (Hint: a comic awhile back where it showed Lelouch geassing Kallen and it brings her sorta back in the past, saying "okay oni-chan")
Meh, nothing would compare if what he got were *censored* stories about Kallen's dreams/realities with Lelouch. I'd laugh my ass of if she started going through her (possibly imaginary) sex life.
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:50   Link #3818
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Meh, nothing would compare if what he got were *censored* stories about Kallen's dreams/realities with Lelouch. I'd laugh my ass of if she started going through her (possibly imaginary) sex life.
That'd be priceless. She already has wet dreams about him, so... yeah. I kinda feel sorry for Suzaku, if that happens.
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:53   Link #3819
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Well like I said the guy has probably "snapped" and is just plain insane right now.
Snapped well if one of your friends died by the hands of someone you know has killed in the past you would want to prevent that from happening again (unless the funeral scene didn't touched you)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Suzaku, "STOP STOP STOP too much information too much!" LOL (Hint: a comic awhile back where it showed Lelouch geassing Kallen and it brings her sorta back in the past, saying "okay oni-chan")

Wow, that would be something especially if you remember how Kallen mother was when she was on Refrain, yeah I can imagine the same thing

Suzaku: (frustrated) Okay, but what does this have to do with Lelouch?

Kallen: No, we really shouldn't, maybe if she joined us it'll be alright

Suzaku: ........this was a waste of time
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Old 2008-07-16, 22:54   Link #3820
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness
Well like I said the guy has probably "snapped" and is just plain insane right now.
Well, if he's being angry about Shirley's death and thinks Lelouch is responsible, then he's clearly not thinking clearly (pardon the pun ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness
Suzaku, "STOP STOP STOP too much information too much!" LOL (Hint: a comic awhile back where it showed Lelouch geassing Kallen and it brings her sorta back in the past, saying "okay oni-chan")
Haha, you mean that 4koma by that guy? *sigh*. It's a pity that the guy hasn't made any more 4komas for a while...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Var
Meh, nothing would compare if what he got were *censored* stories about Kallen's dreams/realities with Lelouch. I'd laugh my ass of if she started going through her (possibly imaginary) sex life.
Like in Code Geass "Bokura no Hibi" #11? (http://rebeleleven.livejournal.com/6283.html#cutid1)? Well, that'd be HILLAROUS to see. It'd be just about the only thing I could possibly find funny about Suzaku refraining Kallen . Suzaku'd go all O_O from those details...
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