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Old 2008-07-20, 20:48   Link #4001
Nanaya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
As someone already pointed out previously, if Suzaku had demanded survailliance data on Lelouch for the past few days leading up to Shirely's death he would've been able to determine the discrepencies. Especially if they refuse to give him full access.

And since the investigation began when Shirely died, then it's still right in going to the agency in the first place rather than drugging Kallen.
The question is, who will review ALL that data? It's not like Suzaku actually has all the time in the world to do all that by himself. Remember, the people Suzaku could only use for that super top secret task are all geassed already.

That makes that point moot.
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Old 2008-07-20, 20:57   Link #4002
Var
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
The question is, who will review ALL that data? It's not like Suzaku actually has all the time in the world to do all that by himself. Remember, the people Suzaku could only use for that super top secret task are all geassed already.

That makes that point moot.
Its his job? It is also far more reliable and believable than a drugged captive.
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Old 2008-07-20, 20:58   Link #4003
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
The question is, who will review ALL that data? It's not like Suzaku actually has all the time in the world to do all that by himself. Remember, the people Suzaku could only use for that super top secret task are all geassed already.

That makes that point moot.
1. You don't need to because they won't give him the data. THe moment Suzaku barged in demanding Lelouch's whereabouts they wouldn't give him a straight answer and Lelouch was already gone.

2. By the time of Shirely's death, Rollo, Villeta, and Lelouch will have left so he would've figured it out.
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Old 2008-07-20, 20:59   Link #4004
morbosfist
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Speaking of which, either Suzaku misunderstands Refrain or they severely altered it. He seems to be under the impression that she'll blank out and answer questions truthfully.
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Old 2008-07-20, 21:04   Link #4005
Sports72Xtrm
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Speaking of which, either Suzaku misunderstands Refrain or they severely altered it. He seems to be under the impression that she'll blank out and answer questions truthfully.
Well when we saw Kallens mom all drugged up, she was actig on her true feelings for Kallen about how much she loved her and how much her affair with her dad was hurting her instead of bottling it all in like she usually does. So idk, maybe refrain as a truth serum is not that far fetch.
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Old 2008-07-20, 21:11   Link #4006
Nanaya
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@ Var

No, it was not Suzaku's job to watch over Lelouch. It's his job to kill Zero, if Lelouch regained his memory. Watching over Lelouch is the Intelligence Agency's job. And they are professionals.

It's like Suzaku HAS to do everything to do a good job for you. Governments don't work that way.

Stop hating Suzaku for not micromanaging everything. That was never his forte. That's Lelouch's. He's a battlefield general, not an intelligence specialist.

Quote:
1. You don't need to because they won't give him the data. THe moment Suzaku barged in demanding Lelouch's whereabouts they wouldn't give him a straight answer and Lelouch was already gone.
Leading up to Shirley's death, Suzaku didn't have enough suspicion for him to do that. Only when he got RAGE after Shirley "committed suicide" did he have enough of a reason to go about things that way. See below for the rest.

Quote:
2. By the time of Shirely's death, Rollo, Villeta, and Lelouch will have left so he would've figured it out.
Which is what happened this episode. But he was more fueled by RAGE and didn't want to do things in a confrontational manner which would ALERT Lelouch about him knowing the truth.
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Old 2008-07-20, 21:13   Link #4007
Var
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
@ Var

No, it was not Suzaku's job to watch over Lelouch. It's his job to kill Zero, if Lelouch regained his memory. Watching over Lelouch is the Intelligence Agency's job. And they are professionals.

It's like Suzaku HAS to do everything to do a good job for you. Governments don't work that way.

Stop hating Suzaku for not micromanaging everything. That was never his forte. That's Lelouch's.
Where have I said I hate him? No where. If he has a suspicion, it is his job to act on it. He is hunting Zero if he suspects someone as Zero he'd best check for himself, not depend on others. And look, the moment he did something on his own, the truth punched him in the face.
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Old 2008-07-20, 21:22   Link #4008
Nanaya
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Where have I said I hate him? No where. If he has a suspicion, it is his job to act on it. He is hunting Zero if he suspects someone as Zero he'd best check for himself, not depend on others. And look, the moment he did something on his own, the truth punched him in the face.
He has had suspicions before, but look at the previous episodes before that, will you?

The save by Rollo made his Nunnally trap doubt his suspicions. The next one after that, the talk with Sayoko-Lelouch on the phone from China while Zero was in China.

This is the only time when his suspicion was allowed any progress precisely because Lelouch was gone (trapped in another world), Rollo was not there, and Viletta abandoned her post. Suzaku only being able to find the ruse's existence was out of the pure luck of the situation created by Shirley's death.

And no, Suzaku is still no intelligence specialist. Watching and listening to ALL that surveillance data is completely impossible for one man (even if he is a superhuman) to do alone. Specialization exists in this world for a reason. Not everyone can do anything right.

And no, you're coming off as hating because you're blaming Suzaku for things that he would never normally do. Governments and agencies work on a basis of trust and professionalism to get the job done.
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Old 2008-07-20, 21:29   Link #4009
Var
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He has had suspicions before, but look at the previous episodes before that, will you?

The save by Rollo made his Nunnally trap doubt his suspicions. The next one after that, the talk with Sayoko-Lelouch on the phone from China while Zero was in China.

This is the only time when his suspicion was allowed any progress precisely because Lelouch was gone (trapped in another world), Rollo was not there, and Viletta abandoned her post. Suzaku only being able to find the ruse's existence was out of the pure luck of the situation created by Shirley's death.

And no, Suzaku is still no intelligence specialist. Watching and listening to ALL that surveillance data is completely impossible for one man (even if he is a superhuman) to do alone. Specialization exists in this world for a reason. Not everyone can do anything right.

And no, you're coming off as hating because you're blaming Suzaku for things that he would never normally do. Governments and agencies work on a basis of trust and professionalism to get the job done.
Suzaku had doubts about everything after Shirley's death. If he doubts Lelouch he doubts the agency by default. His plan to drug Kallen is stupid when the alternative is both simpler and more likely to give him what he wants. This episode showed just how easy it was, yet he went to drug Kallen first for some reason.
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Old 2008-07-20, 21:48   Link #4010
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
He has had suspicions before, but look at the previous episodes before that, will you?

The save by Rollo made his Nunnally trap doubt his suspicions. The next one after that, the talk with Sayoko-Lelouch on the phone from China while Zero was in China.

This is the only time when his suspicion was allowed any progress precisely because Lelouch was gone (trapped in another world), Rollo was not there, and Viletta abandoned her post. Suzaku only being able to find the ruse's existence was out of the pure luck of the situation created by Shirley's death.

And no, Suzaku is still no intelligence specialist. Watching and listening to ALL that surveillance data is completely impossible for one man (even if he is a superhuman) to do alone. Specialization exists in this world for a reason. Not everyone can do anything right.

And no, you're coming off as hating because you're blaming Suzaku for things that he would never normally do. Governments and agencies work on a basis of trust and professionalism to get the job done.

Your missing the point that Var and I are making.

Suzaku makes the deductions after Shirley had been killed. We are talking about him doubting AFTER Shirley's death. Not before, not last year, and defintely not last week. By the time he started to act Rollo, Villeta, and Lelouch were already gone.

So if he had gone to the agency first he'd be in the same situation that he just was in now in 15.

There's no need to go over tons of data, he only needs that small time frame and the moment those guys refuse to give him any access to it spells the obvious.
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Old 2008-07-21, 00:15   Link #4011
bbduece
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To truly free "area 11" Suzaku have to battle the ideals of Charles. If Suzaku does gain control as knight 1, the elevens will still be under britannia rule and ideology and eventually total assimilation into the customs of britannia.
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Old 2008-07-21, 01:05   Link #4012
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Well Suzaku in part, redeemed himself by not using the refrain on her, but at the same time showed how fucked up his perception of Lelouch is... Its like to him Lelouch is the evil dragon that needs to be slayed by the ever so good knight in shining white armor, Suzaku. Oh please... get over yourself Suzaku.
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Old 2008-07-21, 01:29   Link #4013
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Well Suzaku in part, redeemed himself by not using the refrain on her, but at the same time showed how fucked up his perception of Lelouch is... Its like to him Lelouch is the evil dragon that needs to be slayed by the ever so good knight in shining white armor, Suzaku. Oh please... get over yourself Suzaku.
Suzaku only act according to what he knows,if someone kill my gf like LL did to Suzaku, he need to be slayed..And Suzaku won't change until LL get over himself and tell Suzaku the truth
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Old 2008-07-21, 01:34   Link #4014
bbduece
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Suzaku only act according to what he knows,if someone kill my gf like LL did to Suzaku, he need to be slayed..And Suzaku won't change until LL get over himself and tell Suzaku the truth
Everyone in this show is obsessive, i would like to see one of them get killed by the other .
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Old 2008-07-21, 01:54   Link #4015
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
Suzaku only act according to what he knows,if someone kill my gf like LL did to Suzaku, he need to be slayed..And Suzaku won't change until LL get over himself and tell Suzaku the truth
Lelouch's little showdown with Charles, talking about how Lelouch's lies are bringing his own downfall, gave us some foreshadowing on Lelouch actually giving in and telling Suzaku the truth.
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Old 2008-07-21, 02:16   Link #4016
canis
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Originally Posted by Captain Zechs View Post
The thing that really upsets me about Suzaku in 15.

While I am happy that he indeed didn't use the Refrain, because that would have been low, I thought it was just as bad that his reasoning for not using it was to not become like Lelouch. Why on Earth is he so high with his morals? It is rather ridiculous that he hides behind Euphemia all the time, and blames Lelouch for practically every little thing. Lelouch isn't that bad, he does what needs to be done, and he admits to his mistakes and the blood he has taken, Suzaku simply stands on his morals. He shouldn't have used refrain on her simply because it was wrong, not because he'd 'be like Lelouch'.
I think he just doesn't want to become like Zero (or the picture he has of Zero).
Let's face it, just because you are aware or sorry about the lives you take, it won't redeem you in the slightest.
Zero was born from Lelouch's way of thinking that to defeat a devilish emperor you must become a devil yourself. And he's followed that principle diligently. Suzaku saw only his bad side if you so will, all the character development, not forcing a political marriage, not ruling of china but gaining them as allies,...
He didn't see any of that.
And what's wrong about morals? Suzaku is on the preachy side but his ideals are not something bad, are they?
Besides as long as he can keep to his chosen way I'd say he can draw strength from where he wants.
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Old 2008-07-21, 03:28   Link #4017
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I must say, I am positively surprised to see that most of the Zero apologists are not twisting Suzakus actions like a pretzel, as they usually do.

Well, besides a little smattering of "Ooooh, Euphy was an accident" and "But Lelouch is so much better, because he massacres children, while Suzaku is a bastard because he threatens Kallen with using Refrain on her, then doesnīt go through with it, making him gutless!", that is.
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Old 2008-07-21, 04:01   Link #4018
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I must say, I am positively surprised to see that most of the Zero apologists are not twisting Suzakus actions like a pretzel, as they usually do.

Well, besides a little smattering of "Ooooh, Euphy was an accident" and "But Lelouch is so much better, because he massacres children, while Suzaku is a bastard because he threatens Kallen with using Refrain on her, then doesnīt go through with it, making him gutless!", that is.
I don't know about the others, but recently my main complaint has been about how stupid Suzaku is.

There are plenty of people on Britannia's side. But Suzaku is the only idiot amongst them. Even the crazy Nina got something done recently. The drugging of Kallen was a stupid act that would have achieved nothing. All this merely solidified my belief that a Suzaku-ran Japan would be an abysmal failure. Even more innocent people will die than during Clovis's rule if Suzaku took the Area 11 governer job.
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Old 2008-07-21, 04:12   Link #4019
magnuskn
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I don't know about the others, but recently my main complaint has been about how stupid Suzaku is.

There are plenty of people on Britannia's side. But Suzaku is the only idiot amongst them. Even the crazy Nina got something done recently. The drugging of Kallen was a stupid act that would have achieved nothing. All this merely solidified my belief that a Suzaku-ran Japan would be an abysmal failure. Even more innocent people will die than during Clovis's rule if Suzaku took the Area 11 governer job.
Yeah, I can see that. Well, "stupid" isnīt the word I would use, rather "naive".

But in all honesty, R2 has given such vast amounts of plot armour to Lelouch in regards to Suzaku trying to nail down if Lelouch is the "new" Zero, that is has become ridiculous.

Also, the focus clearly has shifted from both Lelouch and Suzaku being the main players in R1, to Lelouch being the main player, and Suzaku becoming supporting cast. So, it isnīt very surprising to me that the writers chose to make Suzaku as inefficient as he has been for the whole season.

I donīt really agree with you on how a Japan run by Suzaku would be worse off than one run by Clovis. Suzaku wouldnīt do massacres, nor tolerate escapades by his sub-ordinates, like Nunally did for a good time.
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Old 2008-07-21, 04:29   Link #4020
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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I donīt really agree with you on how a Japan run by Suzaku would be worse off than one run by Clovis. Suzaku wouldnīt do massacres, nor tolerate escapades by his sub-ordinates, like Nunally did for a good time.
The point about a governer isn't what you do, but what you allow your subordinates to do. It doesn't matter that Suzaku don't do massacres if he couldn't stop his subordinates from ordering such things behind his back.

Suzaku would not be able to exercise any of the theoretical power he has because he has no idea what to do with it. The ineffective drugging of Kallen proves it. (As I mentioned prior, he would have saved himself from a slap if Suzaku just visited the Intelligence Agency from the start like he should be.)
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