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Old 2008-07-21, 04:43   Link #4021
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The point about a governer isn't what you do, but what you allow your subordinates to do. It doesn't matter that Suzaku don't do massacres if he couldn't stop his subordinates from ordering such things behind his back.
I obviously disagree. I think his subordinates would think hard and long about doing anything behind his back, because he isnīt some blind girl in a wheelchair, but rather a knight of rounds... he has the power to execute every single one of them by his decision. We shouldnīt forget that we are talking about the Britannian Empire. Emphasis on "Empire".... fear will keep the subordinates in line.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Suzaku would not be able to exercise any of the theoretical power he has because he has no idea what to do with it. The ineffective drugging of Kallen proves it. (As I mentioned prior, he would have saved himself from a slap if Suzaku just visited the Intelligence Agency from the start like he should be.)
Ah, so your point is that you think Suzaku is stupid all the time, not just behaving stupidly because of Shirleys death. I disagree with that on the basis that Suzaku has demonstrated in the past that he is capable of good decisions.

It is only in the second season that his reasoning has been shown as flawed, and the decision to do so is, IMO, is very much because he has been relegated to be a second ( or even third ) banana to Lelouchs struggle.

Seriously, from the stories standpoint, he has become just as relevant as Schneizel or Kallen, hell, maybe even as much as Ougi ( who might become very important very soon ).

It has become the Lelouch show, to the detriment of Suzaku. Not that this makes the show a bad one, but it definitely should give some perspective on why he has become so ineffectual and ( grantedly ) stupid in his actions.
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:07   Link #4022
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I obviously disagree. I think his subordinates would think hard and long about doing anything behind his back, because he isnīt some blind girl in a wheelchair, but rather a knight of rounds... he has the power to execute every single one of them by his decision. We shouldnīt forget that we are talking about the Britannian Empire. Emphasis on "Empire".... fear will keep the subordinates in line.
The blind girl in a wheelchair could also order executions. It's also about what you can bring yourself to do, and what you can be convinced of.

Suzaku, so far, has shown willingness to walk over a lot of corpses to acquire his power. He'll probably do the same to keep it, even if he has no damn clue what to do with it. So, yeah, I could totally see him refusing to make waves if he's presented with a massacre after the fact. Especially if he's told it was necessary to keep the peace because of all those goddamn terrorists he abhors. Not to mention, he's shown little skill in fact checking. Someone like Rohmeier would work around him more easily than she worked around cripple girl.
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:10   Link #4023
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It's not that Suzaku is "stupid" or high on his moral horse that makes me dislike him. It's the fact that he's blinded by his own sense of justice that just makes him so annoying. I mean he didn't stop using refrain on Kallen because it was wrong, but because it would be a Zero thing to do, which is a no no.

Besides from his righteous BS (and it's BS because no righteous man would use your own friend as a bargaining chip to get promoted), his blindness by his own selfish reasons to keep his hands clean and blood free makes him oblivious to the big picture of the entire show. I mean he has absolutely NO idea whatsoever about the happenings that's going around, except to just blame everything on Lelouch.

Cornelia, upon learning Zero=Lelouch, though branded him as her sister's killer, still took the time to hunt down the answers regarding Geass, because it is such an important factor during the happenings of the last episode and Euphie's unintended actions. Jeremiah also took the time in his final confrontation with Lelouch to find out why he is doing what he's doing as Zero, ultimately finding Lelouch's true motivations and realizing that he isn't such a bad guy at all. Suzaku just goes blindly into accusing Lelocuch of everything, EVEN though he is now aware of the power of Geass, AND the Emperor's temple to destroy the gods. I mean those 2 revelations are PRETTY effing big plot points and issues in this conflict don't you think? Any other normal person, after acquiring such knowledge of both, would at least question and try to dig deeper into it to find out wtf is really going on. Instead, he spends 15 episodes of the show wondering whether or not Lelouch is Zero.

I expected more on his developement since his knowldge of Geass from season 1's ending, and was half-expecting him to find out Lelouch's motivations behind all this. After how many year's as friends, he would just blindly accuse him of everything, not even bothering to find out the event's of Lelouch's mother's assassination, since he already know's he's a prince of Britannia. he's soblinded by his selfish righteousness of "wanting to change things from the inside". I mean how can you accuse someone when you don't know ANYTHING that's happening. Sure he's not a stupid person persay, but he IS stupid and oblivious enough to not see that his knowledge of the supernatural factors around him are bigger issues in this struggle than he thinks.
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:10   Link #4024
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
The blind girl in a wheelchair could also order executions. It's also about what you can bring yourself to do, and what you can be convinced of.

Suzaku, so far, has shown willingness to walk over a lot of corpses to acquire his power. He'll probably do the same to keep it, even if he has no damn clue what to do with it. So, yeah, I could totally see him refusing to make waves if he's presented with a massacre after the fact. Especially if he's told it was necessary to keep the peace because of all those goddamn terrorists he abhors. Not to mention, he's shown little skill in fact checking. Someone like Rohmeier would work around him more easily than she worked around cripple girl.
I donīt think so. I still think of Suzaku as the guy from season one, so my opinion is not as low as yours.

Iīd think that Ms. Rohmeier would pull that trick *once* and then find herself in front of an execution commando.

And, tshk, I specifically avoided calling Nunally a cripple.

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Besides from his righteous BS (and it's BS because no righteous man would use your own friend as a bargaining chip to get promoted)
... who had killed the love of your life in cold blood, after accidentally mind-raping her , transforming her thus into the kind of person she would have hated most to be. Oh, and who after killing her in cold blood, *then* drags her name through the mud, so that in that worlds history she will become a synonym for a maddened butcher.

Sorry, that kills any friendship dead. Deader than dead, for any normal person it transforms it into searing hatred. If you canīt see that, I really canīt help you.

As for the rest of your post, I said it before, Iīll say it again, they dumbified Suzaku in the second season, because he has become a third-stringer in the events of the show.
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:22   Link #4025
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Legend Ver 2 View Post
It's not that Suzaku is "stupid" or high on his moral horse that makes me dislike him. It's the fact that he's blinded by his own sense of justice that just makes him so annoying. I mean he didn't stop using refrain on Kallen because it was wrong, but because it would be a Zero thing to do, which is a no no.
Lelouch also uses the loo. I'm pretty sure it doesn't bother Suzaku to do the same. What happened is that Suzaku, at the last moment, recognized that the abyss was looking back, and turned away. That's a sign of good character.

Of course, it doesn't excuse his role in Britania's conquests and oppression. That's what makes him a horrible person, not that he's found a face for evil.

Quote:
Besides from his righteous BS (and it's BS because no righteous man would use your own friend as a bargaining chip to get promoted),
I would, if I worked in law enforcement, and said friend was a terrorist with the blood of hundreds on his hands, including that of the woman I loved.


Quote:
I expected more on his developement since his knowldge of Geass from season 1's ending, and was half-expecting him to find out Lelouch's motivations behind all this. After how many year's as friends,
One or so? Two? If you don't count the seven years they've spent apart, I mean.

Quote:
he would just blindly accuse him of everything, not even bothering to find out the event's of Lelouch's mother's assassination, since he already know's he's a prince of Britannia. he's soblinded by his selfish righteousness of "wanting to change things from the inside". I mean how can you accuse someone when you don't know ANYTHING that's happening. Sure he's not a stupid person persay, but he IS stupid and oblivious enough to not see that his knowledge of the supernatural factors around him are bigger issues in this struggle than he thinks.
He knows Lelouch forced Euphemia to become the Genocide Princess, framed her, and killed her. What more does he need to know? I mean, it's nice that you're sympathetic to Lelouch, but try to see it from his side, too.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I donīt think so. I still think of Suzaku as the guy from season one, so my opinion is not as low as yours.
I actually think more highly in R2 than in S1.

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Iīd think that Ms. Rohmeier would pull that trick *once* and then find herself in front of an execution commando.
He can't bring himself to sign the order on the guy who tried to kill him, when it's basically SOP. You think he'd order an execution for overzealousness?
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:28   Link #4026
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
He can't bring himself to sign the order on the guy who tried to kill him, when it's basically SOP. You think he'd order an execution for overzealousness?
That guy was a japanese who tried to kill him for betraying his motherland... Suzaku clearly has mixed feelings on that account, so it is no wonder he would have also mixed feelings on executing the assassin.

Actually, him just going along with Ninas signature of the execution order is more of a sign of bad judgement and moral decay on his part than not signing them himself.

And, yeah, I think heīd let some person be executed without a problem if that person had ordered a massacre. Massacres tend to be unambiguously Bad Things ( which is why I am so flabbergasted that there are actually people defending Lelouch about what happened in episode 14 and still negatively comparing Suzakus behaviour in that ep with what Lelouch did ).
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:36   Link #4027
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
That guy was a japanese who tried to kill him for betraying his motherland... Suzaku clearly has mixed feelings on that account, so it is no wonder he would have also mixed feelings on executing the assassin.

Actually, him just going along with Ninas signature of the execution order is more of a sign of bad judgement and moral decay on his part than not signing them himself.

And, yeah, I think heīd let some person be executed without a problem if that person had ordered a massacre. Massacres tend to be unambiguously Bad Things ( which is why I am so flabbergasted that there are actually people defending Lelouch about what happened in episode 14 and still negatively comparing Suzakus behaviour in that ep with what Lelouch did ).
Simple. Lulu isn't proud of what he did. He know exactly what he was doing and why he was doing it.

Drugging Kallen, however, is a ridiculous and more importantly, pointless act. If you want to break morales, at least do it for a reason.
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:41   Link #4028
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Simple. Lulu isn't proud of what he did. He know exactly what he was doing and why he was doing it.

Drugging Kallen, however, is a ridiculous and more importantly, pointless act. If you want to break morales, at least do it for a reason.
Iīd say that Suzaku did stop at the end, but it is pointedly clear that he did so because he didnīt want to stoop as low as Zero/Lelouch... the act itself doesnīt get any less stupid by that.

But, to repeat a last time, Suzaku got dumbified, because he got relegated to third-banana status in the plot.
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:49   Link #4029
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I would think that Suzaku's 'Euphemia' card lost all its value with the reappearance of Cornelia. Both obviously loved the girl (although Cornelia easily edges Suzaku in this category) and both were obviously quite pissed at what happened to her. If Cornelia could dig under the surface while keeping her emotions in check, why can't Suzaku do the same? Suzaku had a lot of evidence that Cornelia was desperately searching for right under his nose...yet he continues to play the Zero blame game.

As for Suzaku drugging Kallen...I would have applauded him if he stopped due to the fact that what he was doing is wrong (and quite frankly pointless)...but he stopped since he didn't want to do something Lelouch did. I think that is where is current 'morals' come into play. As long as it is something Lelouch hasn't done ityet, then he can take the moral high ground. If it is something that Lelouch has done in the past, then that action automatically becomes morally unethical to him.

I'm trying hard not to take any sides between Lelouch and Suzaku, but I can confidently say that Suzaku is indeed an idiot. Not even going to call him a hypocrite or naive...he is just downright stupid if he can't see what's in front of him. You would think a year is enough to cool him down and not be blinded by his emotions...
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:53   Link #4030
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I would think that Suzaku's 'Euphemia' card lost all its value with the reappearance of Cornelia. Both obviously loved the girl (although Cornelia easily edges Suzaku in this category) and both were obviously quite pissed at what happened to her. If Cornelia could dig under the surface while keeping her emotions in check, why can't Suzaku do the same? Suzaku had a lot of evidence that Cornelia was desperately searching for right under his nose...yet he continues to play the Zero blame game.
How exactly does Cornelia impact Suzakus behaviour? As far as I got from the series, he has no clue what she is up to, the only one who *maybe* knows anything in the Britannia camp is Guilford.
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:57   Link #4031
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One may be tempted to entertain the notion that Suzy-boy has decency and principles because he didn't pump Kallen's veins full of poison in the end.

But do not forget that the very fact he even entertained such notions in the first place means that he is still a chump, and most definitely not off the hook from being one.
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:57   Link #4032
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The point is that they both care very deeply for Euphemia, but took very different approaches on how to handle the situation. Cornelia started digging around for why it happened, the cause of it, and who was inevitably responsible for it. Suzaku blamed Lelouch/Zero and keeps using that fact to blind him from the truth.

If Cornelia managed to find a deeper reason as to why Euphemia acted the way she did, why can't Suzaku do the same?

Last edited by MonkeyDude; 2008-07-21 at 06:01. Reason: Major Typo...
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:59   Link #4033
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Its cause Suzaku is a self righteous douchebag,
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Old 2008-07-21, 06:14   Link #4034
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Originally Posted by Ronin Aquila View Post
One may be tempted to entertain the notion that Suzy-boy has decency and principles because he didn't pump Kallen's veins full of poison in the end.

But do not forget that the very fact he even entertained such notions in the first place means that he is still a chump, and most definitely not off the hook from being one.
Yeah, heīs a chump in comparison to more heroic characters. But as we are comparing to Lelouch... he comes off rather well.

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The point is that they both care very deeply for Euphemia, but took very different approaches on how to handle the situation. Cornelia started digging around for why it happened, the cause of it, and who was inevitably responsible for it. Suzaku blamed Lelouch/Zero and keeps using that fact to blind him from the truth.

If Cornelia managed to find a deeper reason as to why Euphemia acted the way she did, why can't Suzaku do the same?
True enough. I refer back to Suzaku being dumbified this season.
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Old 2008-07-21, 06:15   Link #4035
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I would say that he will only reach that level once he uses Nunnally as a bargaining chip. If he ever does that...then all shred of what little respect I have for Suzaku will disappear.

Of course that little shred of respect is mostly due to his hax pilot/wall running skills. Is he even human anymore? xD
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Old 2008-07-21, 06:24   Link #4036
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On the matter of Nunnally-chan, she is starting to show that she is neither as gullible nor weak willed as her self-perceived "puppeteers" thought her to be.

Go Nunna-Chan!! Keep it up!!

If Suzy-boy sells her out to Charlie brown....
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Old 2008-07-21, 06:36   Link #4037
Legend Ver 2
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I would, if I worked in law enforcement, and said friend was a terrorist with the blood of hundreds on his hands, including that of the woman I loved.


One or so? Two? If you don't count the seven years they've spent apart, I mean.


He knows Lelouch forced Euphemia to become the Genocide Princess, framed her, and killed her. What more does he need to know? I mean, it's nice that you're sympathetic to Lelouch, but try to see it from his side, too.
In response to the Euphie card, I give you what Monkeydude posted:

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Originally Posted by MonkeyDude View Post
The point is that they both care very deeply for Euphemia, but took very different approaches on how to handle the situation. Cornelia started digging around for why it happened, the cause of it, and who was inevitably responsible for it. Suzaku blamed Lelouch/Zero and keeps using that fact to blind him from the truth.

If Cornelia managed to find a deeper reason as to why Euphemia acted the way she did, why can't Suzaku do the same?
That is exactly the point I was trying to make. He had enough knowledge of EVERYTHING that transpired to conclude that whatever happened to Euphie was not normal. Lelouch didn't FORCE Euphie to do anything, because forcing would imply it was a consious decision. Lelouch, unaware of his Geass's status, accidently and unintentionally caused Euphie to do what she did. I'm sure everyone would agree that Cornelia's love for Euphie is probably of a higher level than Suzaku's love, and if she had the sense to notice that everything that happened is more than it seems, and actively went searching for answers, then what's to stop Suzaku from doing the same, especially if he had all this knowledge of Geass and it's power. Suzaku pretty much had V.V. under his nose right after Euphie died who probably told him everything, if not at least about the power of Geass.

The seven years apart doesn't change that fact that he knows the truth of Lelouch's identity and that Lelouch wouldn't be as cold-blooded to intentionally screw up Euphie, Lelouch's OWN sister.


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How exactly does Cornelia impact Suzakus behaviour? As far as I got from the series, he has no clue what she is up to, the only one who *maybe* knows anything in the Britannia camp is Guilford.
It's not Suzaku's knowledge of Cornelia's actions that he is referring to, but the fact that they took different paths to responding and redeem/clear Euphie's name. Suzaku doesn't need to kow what Cornelia's doing recently to know that there is something fishy about the whole situation.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
And, yeah, I think heīd let some person be executed without a problem if that person had ordered a massacre. Massacres tend to be unambiguously Bad Things ( which is why I am so flabbergasted that there are actually people defending Lelouch about what happened in episode 14 and still negatively comparing Suzakus behaviour in that ep with what Lelouch did ).
It's not that we're defending Lelouch but more that Lelouch knew exactly what's going on, and assumed the position to be a necessary evil to wipe out another evil. I mean can you imagine letting those kids live? With even one of them at 6 years old or so overpowering TWO KM frmames with their Geass powers. I mean, yeah, it was a massacre, but it could've been alot worse if those geass kids were allowed to live. Plus the fact that Lelouch know what he's doing is questionable, if not flat out wrong. But like someone else said, the fact that Suzaku even entertained the thought of refraining Kallen after all his righteousness moral high horse is just bleh. Yea, it isn't as big in scope to a flat out massacre, but so is killing your own father for being honorable and not giving into the opposing Britannian forces.
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Old 2008-07-21, 07:11   Link #4038
Anh_Minh
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The difference between Cornelia and Suzaku is that, while Cornelia had to sniff out the truth herself, Suzaku was given answers that were true, if not complete, on a silver platter.

Cornelia may not know that Lelouch is Zero, and is acting on his own, rather than at the behest of the geass cult. So she searched and she searched, and found the cult. And set out to expose it to restore Euphie's name.

Suzaku, OTOH, was given just enough to make sense of Zero's rise and Euphie's fall: that Lelouch was Zero, and had the power to enforce his will on anyone once. It explained some of his miracles (starting with Suzaku's own rebellion, which he'd wondered about) and why Euphemia went mad. It explained it all. He didn't have to go gunning for some shadowy cult. He just had to go after the one he knew to be responsible. Euphemia didn't go crazy after being left alone with some cult. It's not VV who shot her after claiming she'd betrayed them. It was all Lelouch.
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:05   Link #4039
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If Cornelia has completely forgiven Lelouch for what he's done, why is she tied up in the preview?
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:06   Link #4040
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
If Cornelia has completely forgiven Lelouch for what he's done, why is she tied up in the preview?
Because she is still dangerous. He has no proof that she's not going to just lunge at him and skewer him.

The difference between Cornelia and Suzaku is not so much what they were told, but that one went to seek out the truth for herself and discovered that trurth, while the other accepted what he was told as truth without questioning it.
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