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Old 2008-07-21, 09:22   Link #4041
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Ronin Aquila View Post
On the matter of Nunnally-chan, she is starting to show that she is neither as gullible nor weak willed as her self-perceived "puppeteers" thought her to be.

Go Nunna-Chan!! Keep it up!!

If Suzy-boy sells her out to Charlie brown....
Doubt it.

The guy's already having doubts about it and worrying what the Emperor would do with Nunnally.

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The difference between Cornelia and Suzaku is not so much what they were told, but that one went to seek out the truth for herself and discovered that trurth, while the other accepted what he was told as truth without questioning it.
But neither were lied to. I'm not sure if VV was fully aware of the fact that Lelouch's geass went wild. Even CC, who should of all people know, didn't realize it at first.

Suzaku was given the whole truth so there's no denying it. Cornelia found out for herself but somehow blamed some cult who had little to do with it aside from providing said power base to the person who used it on Euphie.
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:47   Link #4042
Var
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
But neither were lied to. I'm not sure if VV was fully aware of the fact that Lelouch's geass went wild. Even CC, who should of all people know, didn't realize it at first.
V.V. caused it, Cornelia made that point clear enough, as did the show. Lelouch's Geass didn't go renegade just out of the blue, it happened after V.V.'s smile at the ruins.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Suzaku was given the whole truth so there's no denying it. Cornelia found out for herself but somehow blamed some cult who had little to do with it aside from providing said power base to the person who used it on Euphie.
Suzaku was told something by V.V., which he accepted as the truth. He never questioned why or for what reason, he simply went wild.
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:58   Link #4043
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Suzaku was told something by V.V., which he accepted as the truth. He never questioned why or for what reason, he simply went wild.
Because he didn't really have a reason to doubt anything. When he confronted Lelouch at the end of season 1 he never told him geassing Euphie was an accident. The way I see it, he thinks Lelouch is responsible for everything and Geass is just the power with which he achieves his goals, he has no reason to blame it instead of Lelouch.
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Old 2008-07-21, 10:00   Link #4044
Diedrupo
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Originally Posted by Legend Ver 2 View Post
Lelouch, unaware of his Geass's status, accidently and unintentionally caused Euphie to do what she did.
You are aware that Lelouch is the only person who knows this, right? Everyone else either believes that Euphie went crazy or in Suzaku and Cornelia's case, believe that he intentionally geassed her as part of his plans.

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I'm sure everyone would agree that Cornelia's love for Euphie is probably of a higher level than Suzaku's love, and if she had the sense to notice that everything that happened is more than it seems, and actively went searching for answers, then what's to stop Suzaku from doing the same, especially if he had all this knowledge of Geass and it's power. Suzaku pretty much had V.V. under his nose right after Euphie died who probably told him everything, if not at least about the power of Geass.
Yep, they both know about geass well. However for them to blame the geass and not Lelouch is really stretching it. If a villain obtained powers to hurt people, would you blame the villain or the powers?

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The seven years apart doesn't change that fact that he knows the truth of Lelouch's identity and that Lelouch wouldn't be as cold-blooded to intentionally screw up Euphie, Lelouch's OWN sister.
He killed his own brother, something he admitted publicly. If he can kill his brother, he can kill his sister. Suzaku didn't even know who Euphemia was until he met her when she jumped out a building. He has no way of knowing what her relationship with Lelouch was in the past. And Cornelia seemed to have lost no love for Lelouch. Euphemia and Nunally were Lelouch's only friends among the royal siblings.

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It's not that we're defending Lelouch but more that Lelouch knew exactly what's going on, and assumed the position to be a necessary evil to wipe out another evil. I mean can you imagine letting those kids live? With even one of them at 6 years old or so overpowering TWO KM frmames with their Geass powers. I mean, yeah, it was a massacre, but it could've been alot worse if those geass kids were allowed to live. Plus the fact that Lelouch know what he's doing is questionable, if not flat out wrong. But like someone else said, the fact that Suzaku even entertained the thought of refraining Kallen after all his righteousness moral high horse is just bleh. Yea, it isn't as big in scope to a flat out massacre, but so is killing your own father for being honorable and not giving into the opposing Britannian forces.
Meh, this is the same old anti-Suzaku spiel blasted out by people who either aren't viewing the show objectively (as in, giving everyone a fair slice and not being biased towards any one character) or are just really rooting for Lelouch so much that you're morally justifying everything he does and hating on everyone that opposes him.

Sure Lelouch *could* have wiped out the geass cult for "moral" reasons, but he didn't. He did it out of pure hatred after what happened to Shirley. I'd go so far as to say that he might have even loved Shirley (or grown to love her), and this was a really defining moment for him. Personally I respect him as a character much more if he did out of rage than out of moral responsibility, because it suits his character of a 'villain protagonist' much more.

And Suzaku's father was not a good man. The manga and novels all depict him as an evil bastard. Suzaku killed him to end a war that was going to eradicate all of Japan, so he saved millions of lives in doing so. Also, he was only 10 years old when he did it, and he feels remorse for doing so every day. You'd have to be one cold hearted person to hold this particular issue against him.
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Old 2008-07-21, 10:02   Link #4045
orangejuicetang
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Also, he didn't have a reason to doubt it at that time simply because it all made sense. After all, who had the power of geass at that time? Lelouch. Who benefitted most from Euphie's massacre? Lelouch. We, the viewer know that it was an accident, but to people in the CG world who don't have this knowledge would probably think he did it on purpose simply because it plays into his plans so nicely.
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Old 2008-07-21, 10:07   Link #4046
canis
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Cornelia and Suzaku have completely different outlooks on Euphie's death.
Cornelia wants to clear her name and Suzaku wants to avenge her.
That's why Cornelia has to find out about the power named Geass...
Suzaku isn't interested in the power, he's interested in the man that abused it in his opinion. Euphie was geassed and Zero did it, that's all that's important to him.
The only person who could tell him the truth about what happened is Lelouch and he never did on several occasions. The whole situation is as bad as it is because Lelouch and Suzaku are as stubborn as mules... If nobody tries to improve the situation it won't.

And I'm not sure the whole refrain thing would be as pointless as it has been made out to be.
Apparently it affects the will of the intoxicated person, so there might be a way to use it as a truth serum of sorts.
Drugs always have other ways of being used than just shooting up...
Not that it matters now...
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Old 2008-07-21, 10:09   Link #4047
Diedrupo
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Originally Posted by canis View Post
Cornelia and Suzaku have completely different outlooks on Euphie's death.
Cornelia wants to clear her name and Suzaku wants to avenge her.
That's why Cornelia has to find out about the power named Geass...
Suzaku isn't interested in the power, he's interested in the man that abused it in his opinion. Euphie was geassed and Zero did it, that's all that's important to him.
There has been no indication whatsoever that Cornelia doesn't blame Lelouch for what happened. Just because she researched the geass and wanted answers from them does not mean that she doesn't blame Lelouch/Zero for killing Euphemia.

If anything I would assume she wants to take care of both issues.
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Old 2008-07-21, 10:13   Link #4048
canis
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Originally Posted by Diedrupo View Post
There has been no indication whatsoever that Cornelia doesn't blame Lelouch for what happened. Just because she researched the geass and wanted answers from them does not mean that she doesn't blame Lelouch/Zero for killing Euphemia.

If anything I would assume she wants to take care of both issues.
Probably... She definitely blames Zero, but gaining evidence for Geass' existence is more important to her. Who'd believe her otherwise? The nick "massacre Princess" is definitely hard to get rid of...
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Old 2008-07-21, 10:19   Link #4049
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... Oh god, it brought tears to my eyes.

Lelouch's action is a quetion of morality, Suzaku's actions are a question of idiocy/morality. The best one can argue on either stance is that they are same, but on certain actions one is, generally, worse than the other. The problem is that they alternate between who is doing the more good with their evil.

The most recent case, for instance, is Lelouch doing more good than Suzaku. But this, as has been said, falls into the whole idiocy side of Suzaku since morality was thrown out the window.



Likely because he is the antagonist for the story? It doesn't matter if they use the same methods, which they clearly do not since they have different stances on how things should be done, he is still the antagonist. How vile he is, is what is increasing, getting him closer and closer to the generally perceived idea of what an antogonist is or embodies.

Lelouch believes he is doing it for the common good. But that doesn't mean that it is.

Well put yourself in Suzaku's shoes, your best friend killed your love, enslaved (to a degree) your people. YOu would feel angry wouldn't you?
Well Suzaku goes too much with his emotion, which is his tragic flaw.

And also, we are mostly looking at things from Lulu's point of view not Suzaku's.
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Old 2008-07-21, 10:30   Link #4050
musouka
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Originally Posted by Ronin Aquila View Post
But do not forget that the very fact he even entertained such notions in the first place means that he is still a chump, and most definitely not off the hook from being one.
Ah, is that the delicious smell of double standard? If Suzaku is a "chump" for not doing everything he's ever thought about, then Lelouch is Satan himself.
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Old 2008-07-21, 10:59   Link #4051
Dyllani
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
The difference between Cornelia and Suzaku is not so much what they were told, but that one went to seek out the truth for herself and discovered that trurth, while the other accepted what he was told as truth without questioning it.
Suazaku watched in dispair as Euphie died, completely unaware of the tragedy that transpired. You're right, Suzaku accepted the truth without question. At the time, he probably would have accepted any truth that gave him an awswer. I can't blame him. What does Suazaku actually know? He knows that Lelouch possessed a Geass. He knows that Lelouch killed Euphemia. He knows that shortly before her death, she ordered a massacre, something she would never do. Suzaku has his truth.

What truth has Conelia discovered? A hidden cult that is studying and experimenting with Geass. Did she find the answers she was looking for? I'm not sure. To the best of my knowledge, the Current Geass Cult had nothing to do with Euphemia's death or Lelouch recieving Geass. Yet, they felt the wrath of the Britannian Princess. Cornelia seems to blame Geass, the power, for what happened to Euphemia. She will clear her sister's name, whatever the cost. Yes, Cornelia is seeking the truth, but the truth she is trying to find is very diffenent than Suzaku's. Suzaku blames the man who took Eupemia's life, not the power he used.
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Old 2008-07-21, 11:39   Link #4052
DN24
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Suzaku simply stands on his morals. He shouldn't have used refrain on her simply because it was wrong, not because he'd 'be like Lelouch'.
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I mean he didn't stop using refrain on Kallen because it was wrong, but because it would be a Zero thing to do, which is a no no
Can't believe people can twist the fact to their liking this much, doesn't being like LL/zero equal being bad and wrong in Suzaku's eyes,he stopped because he realized that it was a wrong action and that's it

About Cornelia and Suzaku,I'd say Cornelia is Lelouch sister after all,just like how LL himself decided to massacre the whole cult instead of just Rolo,Cornelia will reveal/destroy the cult first then take out Lelouch later,I can see that she doesn't show much love for him in the review.
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Old 2008-07-21, 11:49   Link #4053
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
Can't believe people can twist the fact to their liking this much, doesn't being like LL/zero equal being bad and wrong in Suzaku's eyes,he stopped because he realized that it was a wrong action and that's it
right
if he figured that part out 10 seconds earlier he could have avoided
a)getting slapped
b)trumatising kallen
c)getting even more pissed off at lulu (he actually seems angrier afterwards.is he blaming lulu for that as well)

he found out the truth about lulu within two minutes of asking around the school
so that whole thing with kallen was pointless
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Old 2008-07-21, 11:50   Link #4054
incorrupts
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
Can't believe people can twist the fact to their liking this much, doesn't being like LL/zero equal being bad and wrong in Suzaku's eyes,he stopped because he realized that it was a wrong action and that's it
For the Love of God, yes. But of course, Suzaku is not allowed to change his mind.
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Old 2008-07-21, 12:05   Link #4055
Dream_Traveller
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
right
if he figured that part out 10 seconds earlier he could have avoided
a)getting slapped
b)trumatising kallen
c)getting even more pissed off at lulu (he actually seems angrier afterwards.is he blaming lulu for that as well)

he found out the truth about lulu within two minutes of asking around the school
so that whole thing with kallen was pointless
Didn't you read? He realized it was wrong because he was turning into what he saw Zero as. And he went to Ashford because he then wanted to try a more humane method. Jeez, get that into your head, will ya?
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Old 2008-07-21, 12:09   Link #4056
bladeofdarkness
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Didn't you read? He realized it was wrong because he was turning into what he saw Zero as. And he went to Ashford because he then wanted to try a more humane method. Jeez, get that into your head, will ya?

actually he has a really wrong view about who zero is and what he does
i know he doesnt know all the facts that we the viewers do
but still its worth noting that lulu has almost never used his geass to twist peoples will to his own couse
he always uses it as a weapon (albeit a stratigic one)
but he almost never uses it to make others follow him
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Old 2008-07-21, 12:23   Link #4057
Dream_Traveller
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And yet, even without the Geass, and still with it, he used people like pawns in the first season.

And a wrong view? What, so he should support, in his eyes, the person that killed Clovis? That killed Euphemia? That made his life a living hell all due to a simple command to live?
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Old 2008-07-21, 12:29   Link #4058
DN24
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but still its worth noting that lulu has almost never used his geass to twist peoples will to his own couse
he always uses it as a weapon (albeit a stratigic one)
but he almost never uses it to make others follow him
He never use geass to tell people to follow him directly but the fact is people follow him because he can perform "miracles" which are possible only because of his geass,as Charles said everything LL has is from lying. And he had no problem making people do things they'd never want to do using geass.

Suzaku is not so wrong about LL,the only thing he had wrong is that he thinks Lelouch only cares about himself and no one else while in fact LL cares for about 6-8 people.
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Old 2008-07-21, 12:34   Link #4059
Discerptor
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
but still its worth noting that lulu has almost never used his geass to twist peoples will to his own couse
he always uses it as a weapon (albeit a stratigic one)
but he almost never uses it to make others follow him
Even without the accident, Lelouch was willing to use Geass to make Euphy shoot him so he could drag her name through the mud and destroy everything she worked for. He used his Geass to basically make EVERYONE who was watching him at Ashford his slave for life. Using the Geass to make people "lose their will" and do things he needs hem to even when they never would on their own is ALL he does with it. He used in this fashion against every single soldier he made follow his oreders, he used it like this aganst Clovis, he used it like this against Cornelia, he used it like this on Euphie, and he even used it like this on KALLEN at the beginning of the series. All this is the same as what Suzaku didn't want to lower himself to doing. I don't know if you were trying to say something completely different from what you actually tried to claim here, but the only appropriate response to it is, "...lol wut?"
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Old 2008-07-21, 12:38   Link #4060
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
V.V. caused it, Cornelia made that point clear enough, as did the show. Lelouch's Geass didn't go renegade just out of the blue, it happened after V.V.'s smile at the ruins.
Huh I was under the impression that they go wild themselves which is what CC warned Lelouch. If VV sped it up then so be it.

Quote:
Suzaku was told something by V.V., which he accepted as the truth. He never questioned why or for what reason, he simply went wild.
Well it made sense to him. He knew that he wouldn't disobey an order and Euphie wouldn't order a massacre so why question it?


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actually he has a really wrong view about who zero is and what he does
i know he doesnt know all the facts that we the viewers do
No it's not a wrong view. It's who he is and what he does. He wants to make a better world and is willing to do what it takes to achieve that goal. Just because he feels sympathy and hesistate doesn't change the fact that he did them. It's however why Suzaku wants to find out the truth behind Euphie and to do that he wants Lelouch to answer him.

His father is doing the exact same thing by destroying the lies plaguing the world by whatever means but in this case he's not lying or hiding behind anything (which is what he critized Lelouch on).
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