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Old 2008-07-21, 16:18   Link #4081
incorrupts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
all it proves is that he's not that far gone yet that he would stoop to ANYTHING to reach his goals
its still wrong
it was wrong when he chose to do it
it was wrong when he tried to do it
and it was wrong when he chose not to do it after all
good for him that he's not a monster
but he was still willing to do it right up to that point

Um, contradiction?
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:18   Link #4082
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
Euphie wanted to give the Japanese a place where they could live in peace and Lelouch was butthurt because that would take away his savior status. So he decided to create a riot and make it fail just so he could, guess what, give the Japanese a place where they could live in peace instead. Why are we still discussing this, by the way? Oh yes, parallelism between Geass and Refrain. I, for one, find this a very interesting comparison.
Lelouch's ultimate goal is not to just give the Japanese a place to live in peace, but to free them from Britannian rule so he could use them in his fight against Britannia. And yes Euphie wanted to give the Japanese a place where they are treated equals and her intentions are certainly better then Lelouch's, but her SAZ was nothing more then a stopgap that the Britannian higher ups are humouring her with because it might keep the majority of the discontented Japanese happy for the time being and lessen Zero's power. And really considering the fact that the SAZ was not exactly well received, it is not like it is a true place of equality, adding to the fact that it is in one tiny city where they can be considered equals is not nothing more then a place where Britiannians can feign tolerance for the Numbers.

I'm just expressing my opinion about the subject in response to a post.
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:22   Link #4083
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by skyless View Post

Um, contradiction?

not so much
wanting to do something wrong and then not being able to do it in the end is not the same as knowing its wrong and therefor choosing not to do it from the start
thats all
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:24   Link #4084
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
And really considering the fact that the SAZ was not exactly well received
Unless you're talking about how it was received among the Britannians, I beg to disagree: there were quite a lot of Japanese people willing to sign up, even among the Black Knights. Euphie's idea was not perfect, but it would certainly have been a start, especially if Lelouch had decided to help her.

But...we're getting off-topic, aren't we? Not to mention this has already been discussed to death
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:25   Link #4085
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
not so much
wanting to do something wrong and then not being able to do it in the end is not the same as knowing its wrong and therefor choosing not to do it from the start
thats all
The fact that Suzu realized what was about to do was wrong and decided to back up is giving him zero credit huh? Yeah, sure. :/
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:26   Link #4086
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by skyless View Post
The fact that Suzu realized what was about to do was wrong and decided to back up is giving him zero credit huh? Yeah, sure. :/
it gives him credit for still being human and knowing right from wrong
what else did you expect
a freaking medal
like i said its not praise worthy
you dont praise someone for "not doing evil"
you praise them for doing good
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:30   Link #4087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
it gives him credit for still being human and knowing right from wrong
what else did you expect
a freaking medal
like i said its not praise worthy
you dont praise someone for "not doing evil"
you praise them for doing good
I didn't say a medal {} i just can see that some people are using different standards for some charas which is annoying like hell.
And no, not praise but don't make it seem like it was still a bad thing.
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:39   Link #4088
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by skyless View Post
I didn't say a medal {} i just can see that some people are using different standards for some charas which is annoying like hell.
And no, not praise but don't make it seem like it was still a bad thing.
the fact he decided not to is in itself a good thing
the fact that he was going to in the first place is not
and different standards for different characters make sense when said characters hold themselves by different standards
after all he decided not to do it becouse he realized that's what lulu would do
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:46   Link #4089
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Originally Posted by skyless View Post
The fact that Suzu realized what was about to do was wrong and decided to back up is giving him zero credit huh? Yeah, sure. :/
Suzaku didn't realize anything...The ONLY reason he stopped is due to the sole reason that he didn't want to become like Lelouch/Zero.

He was more than ready to drug her until he saw a vision of LL/Zero. His exact lines according to the sub goes like this:

"I can't be like him-"

Then he proceeds to throw away the refrain injector.

Now tell me...where in that line does he have some sort of moral epiphany? If he is true to his word of doing whatever it takes, then he would have drugged her. At least he would have followed his principles...
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:50   Link #4090
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Originally Posted by MonkeyDude View Post
Now tell me...where in that line does he have some sort of moral epiphany? If he is true to his word of doing whatever it takes, then he would have drugged her. At least he would have followed his principles...
...maybe in the fact that he sees Zero as the epitome of evil so he doesn't want to become like him?
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:58   Link #4091
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Originally Posted by MonkeyDude View Post
Suzaku didn't realize anything...The ONLY reason he stopped is due to the sole reason that he didn't want to become like Lelouch/Zero.

He was more than ready to drug her until he saw a vision of LL/Zero. His exact lines according to the sub goes like this:

"I can't be like him-"

Then he proceeds to throw away the refrain injector.

Now tell me...where in that line does he have some sort of moral epiphany? If he is true to his word of doing whatever it takes, then he would have drugged her. At least he would have followed his principles...
Because to him, Zero uses wrong and brutal methods to achieve his objectives.

Saying, "I can't be like him" is equivalent to saying, "this is wrong" and not the right way.

Quote:
the fact he decided not to is in itself a good thing
the fact that he was going to in the first place is not
and different standards for different characters make sense when said characters hold themselves by different standards
Oh please.

How many movies and TV shows have you seen where a character just goes berserk like a wild elephant until someone snaps them out of it? Like where a police officer chases down a bad crook who killed a little school girl and beats him into a bloody pulp with the intention of killing him but then at the last minute realizes that he's not the bad guy and simply arrests him?

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after all he decided not to do it becouse he realized that's what lulu would do
No it's not what Lelouch would do it's what ZERO would do.

It's obvious that Suzaku was not in his right mindset when he was preparing to drug Kallen, you see it in his eyes. And then right before he does it he snaps back to reality and realizes that drugging her was not right. Drugging her would make him no more better than the man he himself is trying to stop.

Oh wait. How many movies and shows do we have where you got a guy saying, "You do it and you'll become just like him!"
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Old 2008-07-21, 17:04   Link #4092
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Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
...maybe in the fact that he sees Zero as the epitome of evil so he doesn't want to become like him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Because to him, Zero uses wrong and brutal methods to achieve his objectives.

Saying, "I can't be like him" is equivalent to saying, "this is wrong" and not the right way.
So both of you are trying to say that Suzaku can always use Lelouch as a moral scapegoat? So Lelouch caring and doting for his sister is the epitome of evil? Since when did Lelouch become a standard for ethics in the first place?

Zero could have married off Tianzi to Tamaki just to show the CF that the BK owns them. Now what did he do? Zero could have abandoned Kallen as a casualty of war. Now what did he do? Zero could have forced Nunnally into accepting his will. Now what did he do?

Lelouch has kept his promise and hasn't broken a single promise to his sister. Yeah he is the epitome of evil alright

Blind Suzaku fanboyism...
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Old 2008-07-21, 17:06   Link #4093
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Originally Posted by MonkeyDude View Post
So both of you are trying to say that Suzaku can always use Lelouch as a moral scapegoat? So Lelouch caring and doting for his sister is the epitome of evil? Since when did Lelouch become a standard for ethics in the first place?

Zero could have married off Tianzi to Tamaki just to show the CF that the BK owns them. Now what did he do? Zero could have abandoned Kallen as a casualty of war. Now what did he do? Zero could have forced Nunnally into accepting his will. Now what did he do?

Lelouch has kept his promise and hasn't broken a single promise to his sister. Yeah he is the epitome of evil alright

Blind Suzaku fanboyism...
I sure hope you're joking and ignoring everything that makes Suzaku hate Lelouch on purpose.
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Old 2008-07-21, 17:08   Link #4094
bladeofdarkness
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actually i see it in his hair (it looks messed up)
and while im sure you are not really compering a "bad crook who killed a little school girl" with a "female (i dont care what people say, it does matter) POW who had nothing whatsoever to do with sherly's death,who is alreay in prison,and who is at his mercy" you have to admit that its not even remotly the same
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Old 2008-07-21, 17:08   Link #4095
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by MonkeyDude View Post
So both of you are trying to say that Suzaku can always use Lelouch as a moral scapegoat? So Lelouch caring and doting for his sister is the epitome of evil? Since when did Lelouch become a standard for ethics in the first place?
For crying out loud. Do I have to hand it out to you on a silver platter?

Lelouch created Zero to be the "warlock" who to everyone does what is necessary to achieve his objectives.

THe Zero being "evil" is what Suzaku has come to view of him and what Lelouch created. From Suzaku's perspective this is correct.

If you haven't noticed this is why I always keep Zero and Lelouch separate.

Quote:
Blind Suzaku fanboyism...
Oh sure throw some insults in while your at it it's not going to get you anywhere.

You must've missed the insults that I've thrown at Suzaku awhile back.

Quote:
and while im sure you are not really compering a "bad crook who killed a little school girl" with a "female (i dont care what people say, it does matter) POW who had nothing whatsoever to do with sherly's death,who is alreay in prison,and who is at his mercy" you have to admit that its not even remotly the same
Good lord must I explain everything or is you hatred so deep you refuse to see anything?

How many movies and TV shows have you seen where a character just goes berserk like a wild elephant until someone snaps them out of it?

The crook cop was just one of many examples.

Do you want me to list movies and shows where a character goes all out on some random guy who is affiliated with the main villan and roughs him up during interrogation to the point of nearly killing them? Or one where a soldier beats up a POW who may or may not have had anything to do with his best friend's death and yanks out a gun ready to kill him to the point that his comrades have to calm him down?

Quote:
actually i see it in his hair (it looks messed up)
Well at least you got one point down.
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Old 2008-07-21, 17:13   Link #4096
canis
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Originally Posted by MonkeyDude View Post
So both of you are trying to say that Suzaku can always use Lelouch as a moral scapegoat? So Lelouch caring and doting for his sister is the epitome of evil? Since when did Lelouch become a standard for ethics in the first place?

Zero could have married off Tianzi to Tamaki just to show the CF that the BK owns them. Now what did he do? Zero could have abandoned Kallen as a casualty of war. Now what did he do? Zero could have forced Nunnally into accepting his will. Now what did he do?

Lelouch has kept his promise and hasn't broken a single promise to his sister. Yeah he is the epitome of evil alright

Blind Suzaku fanboyism...
There's no blind fanboyism/fangirlism involved.
Suzaku doesn't know the same things the viewer does. And he certainly doesn't know about Tianzi. He also doesn't know why Lelouch is going that far...
He's only seeing the effects. There is plenty of room for misinterpretation.
This episode just showed that he didn't want to become like the one he hunted (his opinion of him at least) that's all. Suzaku has blamed Zero for a lot of things but this time he just decided to not take a step further.
That's not the same as using him as a moral scapegoat.
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Old 2008-07-21, 17:16   Link #4097
SoldierOfDarkness
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Which is WHY Suzaku wants to talk to Lelouch face to face about Euphie. He's been told about what happend by VV but he wants to hear it from Lelouch's side.
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Old 2008-07-21, 17:18   Link #4098
Discerptor
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Euphie was not granting Lelouch what he desired, and it is laughable to suggest so. Lelouch desired to destroy Britannia because it is corrupt and rotting, and intends to build something better in it's place. What Euphie was "granting" him was a false world that feigns tolerance in a small area of a small country. Something that could also be taken away by Britannia should they feel it necessary.
Seeing as Lelouch himself thought differently and directly said he would have gained what he wanted, I'd say you're quite a bit off-base. Just an attempt to justify what Lelouch did as being a good thing.

Quote:
Refrain is not a strategic weapon, it is a drug that induces hallucinogenic effects. You have no control over what memories the person recalls and relives nor can you affect the person while he or she is under the affect of the drug as evidence by the users being completely oblivious to a firefight and being swung form the arm of the knightmare. In such a state they cannot be questioned and you are only hoping for a small chance that they recall the memory you want them to. Lelouch's geass on the other hand makes sure that the person is telling the truth as they know it without any unknown factors or much of a side affect other then memory loss unlike refrain.
"Truth serum" drugs all work by knocking out brain functions that hopefully aid the ability to lie. They may not be perfect, but it's the best Suzaku had access to as an interrogation tool short of torture.
Quote:
Hate Suzaku? So thinking his stunt with using refrain is stupid and what he is doing is against international law is hating? For the record I do not hate Suzaku either, nor do I have a problem with him using refrain on Kallen if he would stop hiding behind is justifications and just come out and say that he is doing it because he hates Lelouch and can't forgive him rather then give a bull reason.
He didn't do anything with refrain. He realised it was wrong, and he came to his senses when he realised it was wrong. I find it hilarious that people justify two outright genocides by Zero but think Suzaku almost going through with this and then stopping is an atrocity. And Suzaku hasn't done anything for the purpose of "getting back" at Lelouch. He hasn't forgiven him, but he doesn't do anything for the sake of spiting him either. There hasn't been a single example of this. That sort of childish reaction is what Lelouch has been doing as Zero against his father.

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Lelouch has tried to rape Kallen? I am sorry but I laughed at that. Asking for comfort is raping now? He did not restrain her and tried to force himself on her right? He told her to comfort him if she means what she said about following any order, tried to kiss her and she slapped him. Now who is the one making up crap in the hopes of leading to a character doing a horrible thing?
What did you think he was trying to do? The intent of that scene was incredibly obvious, especially with the point of WOMEN being able to comfort and Kallen being willing to follow ANY order. And Kallen DID slap the crap out of him before he could actually do anything. Lelouch epically failed, but he still wanted to take sexual advantage of Kallen, even if it was in the distress of what was going on with Nana-chan. Of course, this whole subject is admittedly irrelevant anyway since Suzaku doesn't know about that and thus it does not contribute to his perception of Lelouch.
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Old 2008-07-21, 17:19   Link #4099
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Originally Posted by canis View Post
There's no blind fanboyism/fangirlism involved.
Suzaku doesn't know the same things the viewer does. And he certainly doesn't know about Tianzi. He also doesn't know why Lelouch is going that far...
He's only seeing the effects. There is plenty of room for misinterpretation.
This episode just showed that he didn't want to become like the one he hunted (his opinion of him at least) that's all. Suzaku has blamed Zero for a lot of things but this time he just decided to not take a step further.
That's not the same as using him as a moral scapegoat.
Keyword. Which are certainly catastrophic. I can totally get Suzaku, i gotta say he's done his fair amount of shit but i get him.
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Old 2008-07-21, 17:23   Link #4100
Anh_Minh
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So both of you are trying to say that Suzaku can always use Lelouch as a moral scapegoat? So Lelouch caring and doting for his sister is the epitome of evil?
Actually, that's a good point. Lelouch cares for Nunnaly. So does Suzaku. Does he go "Arg, I can't be like him"? No, he isn't bothered by the fact he cares for Nunnaly. Because he's not the irrational Lelouch hater you're trying to paint him as. It's not like he'll automatically conclude that whatever Lelouch does is evil. Though yeah, he's past giving him the benefit of the doubt. Can't blame him for that.

He changed his mind because what he was doing was evil. But the reason he was able to recognize it as evil, the reason that was able to cut through his rage induce blindness, was that it was one of the things he hated about Lelouch. He was able to recognize he was becoming what he was hating. But it's not like he hated it just because it was Lelouch. He hated it because it's wrong, as Lelouch himself would recognize - but to him, it's the lesser evil.

Sure, it'd have been better if he'd never gone there in the first place. Failing that, it'd have been better if he'd snapped out of it for a less personal reason. But all in all, he was still able to see that he was wrong, and to stop himself. That goes to his credit.

(That he failed to see the stupidity of his action doesn't. All his many other questionable acts remain questionable. But it's stupid to say he was wrong in the way he recognized his own evil just because his own experience with Lelouch was involved.)
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