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Old 2008-07-21, 17:36   Link #4101
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
That he failed to see the stupidity of his action doesn't. All his many other questionable acts remain questionable. But it's stupid to say he was wrong in the way he recognized his own evil just because his own experience with Lelouch was involved.)
I dunno with the way Suzaku was talking about Refrain it seemed like it was some truth serum despite what we've seen.

So either Suzaku is deluding himself or the writers changed it.
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Old 2008-07-21, 18:23   Link #4102
Sports72Xtrm
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You know a lot of people are hating Suzaku for his stance on trying to change Britannia from the inside because many of you guys think it's impossible and won't give it a chance. Many feel that it's naive to uncorrupt a corrupt government and anything Britannian isn't worth saving. However, we saw how Nunally was trying to get equal rights for the elevens in turn 15. Isn't that the start of an uncorrupt Britannia? Isn't what Zero doing going against everything Nunally is trying to accomplish? The night is always darkest before the dawn but I promise you the dawn is coming. Lelouch's actions is only prolonging that.
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Old 2008-07-21, 18:47   Link #4103
SoldierOfDarkness
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No they hate him for opposing Lelouch.
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Old 2008-07-21, 18:57   Link #4104
Nilie
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OkAY! I wanted to do this earlier this week after watching ep 15 but life got in the way. Since I turn out to be right about Suzaku at least most of the time, who wants to bet on Suzaku asking Kallen to join forces with him in order to protect Nanally from the evil overlord who he knows will not hesitate to use the poor innocent disabled sweet sister of his arch=enemy in order to achieve his evil goals?
I mean, I didn't get the impression there was going to be much of a fight scene between the Lancelot and Gurren, they do seem to be of equal strength at some point but it's not... I dunno how to say this but.
Anyway, who bets? XD Cookies to teh winners lD?
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Last edited by Nilie; 2008-07-28 at 09:02.
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Old 2008-07-21, 19:47   Link #4105
SoldierOfDarkness
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Well the opening sorta shows them "together" but defintely not fighting.

Having the two on Nunnally's side independent but not against Lelouch's factions would be interesting. Having both Guren and Lancelot protecting Japan and Nunnally's kingdom.
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Old 2008-07-21, 19:49   Link #4106
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Nilie View Post
OkAY! I wanted to do this earlier this week after watching ep 15 but life got in the way. Since I turn out to be right about Suzaku at least most of the time, who wants to bet on Suzaku asking Kallen to join forces with him in order to protect Nanally from the evil overlord who he knows will not hesitate to use the poor innocent disabled sweet sister of his arch=enemy in order to achieve his evil goals?
I mean, I didn't get the impression there was going to be much of a fight scene between the Lancelot and Gurren, they do seem to be of equal strength at some point but it's not... I dunno how to say this but.
Anyway, who bets? XD Cookies to teh winners lD?
Suzaku can't convince anyone to join him for anything. He isn't leadership material. Kallen can do better on her own than with Suzaku "leading".
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Old 2008-07-21, 19:52   Link #4107
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Nilie View Post
OkAY! I wanted to do this earlier this week after watching ep 15 but life got in the way. Since I turn out to be right about Suzaku at least most of the time, who wants to bet on Suzaku asking Kallen to join forces with him in order to protect Nanally from the evil overlord who he knows will not hesitate to use the poor innocent disabled sweet sister of his arch=enemy in order to achieve his evil goals?
I mean, I didn't get the impression there was going to be much of a fight scene between the Lancelot and Gurren, they do seem to be of equal strength at some point but it's not... I dunno how to say this but.
Anyway, who bets? XD Cookies to teh winners lD?
considering what did to her this ep (even without the drugs that has got to be trumatising) i cant see her working with him
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Old 2008-07-21, 20:06   Link #4108
Discerptor
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The opening does seem to suggest Lancelot and Guren being together in a non-confrontational manner. I don't know if they will join for that reason, but I do think that Suzaku and Kallen will be working on the same side soon enough, apparently with redesigns courtesy of Lloyd.
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Old 2008-07-21, 20:21   Link #4109
Dream_Traveller
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Call this post stupid if you will, but I doubt that the Albion turning to face the Guren and brandishing an MVS is hintng at a non-confrontational situation.
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Old 2008-07-21, 21:21   Link #4110
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
Seeing as Lelouch himself thought differently and directly said he would have gained what he wanted, I'd say you're quite a bit off-base. Just an attempt to justify what Lelouch did as being a good thing.
Considering the fact that Lelouch went in with that dumb plan of having Euphie shoot him with a ceramic gun in order to stop the SAZ, I'd say that was not what he wanted. And I think you have it wrong, I am not trying to justify any of Lelouch's actions right now, rather I am bagging on the SAZ because it is a dumb idea. It actually undermines chances for equality between the Numbers and the Britannians by insinuating that such a thing is impossible outside a small designated area that no Britannian is in. Rather then looking to stick them in "reserves" they should be trying to more effectively integrate the Numbers into Britannian society by perhaps improving the Honourary Britannian system. Such as removing some limitations on opportunities and such and giving the Numbers a more equal chance as a Britannian citizen after becoming an Honourary Britannian.

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"Truth serum" drugs all work by knocking out brain functions that hopefully aid the ability to lie. They may not be perfect, but it's the best Suzaku had access to as an interrogation tool short of torture.
The basis of the truth drugs are basically like that, hence alcohol being considered an early form of truth serum. Yet refrain does not function like that. No truth drug is perfect, but refrain is not even viable enough to be considered a truth drug, and I believe I have already pointed out the reason why.

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He didn't do anything with refrain. He realised it was wrong, and he came to his senses when he realised it was wrong. I find it hilarious that people justify two outright genocides by Zero but think Suzaku almost going through with this and then stopping is an atrocity. And Suzaku hasn't done anything for the purpose of "getting back" at Lelouch. He hasn't forgiven him, but he doesn't do anything for the sake of spiting him either. There hasn't been a single example of this. That sort of childish reaction is what Lelouch has been doing as Zero against his father.

What did you think he was trying to do? The intent of that scene was incredibly obvious, especially with the point of WOMEN being able to comfort and Kallen being willing to follow ANY order. And Kallen DID slap the crap out of him before he could actually do anything. Lelouch epically failed, but he still wanted to take sexual advantage of Kallen, even if it was in the distress of what was going on with Nana-chan. Of course, this whole subject is admittedly irrelevant anyway since Suzaku doesn't know about that and thus it does not contribute to his perception of Lelouch.
I wish you would actually read my post before responding, because nowhere did I condemn Suzaku solely for intending to use refrain, or justify Lelouch's killing sprees.

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Originally Posted by me a few post back
Hate Suzaku? So thinking his stunt with using refrain is stupid and what he is doing is against international law is hating? For the record I do not hate Suzaku either, nor do I have a problem with him using refrain on Kallen if he would stop hiding behind is justifications and just come out and say that he is doing it because he hates Lelouch and can't forgive him rather then give a bull reason.
Refrain does not have the properties that would allow for it to be a viable truth drug and using it solely with that intent is stupid. As the episode showed, had he ran into the intelligence division instead of trying to threaten Kallen with refrain, he would have gotten his answers already. He was blinded by anger, but managed to pull himself out of it before falling to it.

And what is still not rape, it is just Lelouch being a douche. He did not attack Kallen or anything, it wouldn't even be considered attempted rape.

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Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
Unless you're talking about how it was received among the Britannians, I beg to disagree: there were quite a lot of Japanese people willing to sign up, even among the Black Knights. Euphie's idea was not perfect, but it would certainly have been a start, especially if Lelouch had decided to help her.

But...we're getting off-topic, aren't we? Not to mention this has already been discussed to death
Ah sorry about that, I meant among Britannian it wasn't well received, was in a bit of a hurry typing that and I appolagise.

Well I agree that everything that needed to be said have already been said on the matter so I am content to leave it at that until someone wants to contest the point farther.
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Old 2008-07-21, 21:26   Link #4111
MonkeyDude
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*shrugs*

Things would be so much easier if Suzaku wasn't so full of contradictions. I don't hate his character, I just find it extremely annoying to say compared to Lelouch.

I still believe that Suzaku is using LL/Zero as nothing more than a moral scapegoat. As long as he believes that his actions are the opposite of LL/Zero, then he can justify his actions as morally correct. If he just admits that he is an evil douchebag like Lelouch, then I'm sure people won't be as harsh when it comes to his character

Oh as for the SAZ...I always viewed it as like an internment camp. Those who would join it are those more likely to rebel against Britannia. Instead of having to quell the dissenting horde, they might as well place them in a specific spot so cleansing dissent becomes that much easier. Those living outside the SAZ would probably fare better since it shows that they are willing to confirm to Britannian rule, thus sacrificing their identity as 'Japanese' and living as an 'Eleven'.
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Old 2008-07-21, 21:31   Link #4112
ApostleOfGod
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Seems like everyone picked up on the idea of Suzaku contradicting himself... Such a mainstream belief that dominated somehow, because of certain actions like "going against friend".

His history ain't great. He can't quite make up his mind either at times. He goes with the flow, but if he was so contradictory, why would he be Knight of Seven? All the Suzaku haters are overlooking what's infront of their eyes

And that's just the start. There's much more to it..
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Old 2008-07-21, 21:35   Link #4113
morbosfist
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Reading through all the talk is a chore indeed, but from what I gather the contradiction is not in reaching his goal, but in how he reaches it.
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Old 2008-07-21, 21:57   Link #4114
MonkeyDude
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I just go by his philosophy that the means must justify the end. Then his so called girlfriend dies (which still pretty much felt like a forced relationship to me) and he goes on his so called character change. I don't mind the whole "going against the friend" but I have a problem with "selling your friend in exchange for power".

Yeah it must suck living a privileged life during your childhood and killing your dad due to your own selfishness. I'm sure Suzaku led a life of hell compared to Lelouch and Nunnally. Why is he going with the flow when he is supposed to be changing the system, or did he forget his goals to focus on his personal vendetta against LL/Zero? The fact that he is a Knight of Rounds is a contradiction to his beliefs, but I guess that's a pointless argument given that he threw away his beliefs after Euphemia's death.

I try to analyze his character using both seasons, not just R2. Maybe that's why I find him full of contradictions...
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Old 2008-07-21, 22:12   Link #4115
ApostleOfGod
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Put yourself in the shoes of this character for a second.

You have a friend. He's an abandoned prince. Later in the future, you see him. Then you find a man who tries to forcefully make his goals come true, regardless of methods. Same goals, different methods. Lulu thinks about the goal ahead and its significance in the end. Afterall, Suzaku isn't trying to get rid of the "Holy Britannian Empire". He's simply trying to change the system for the better. He doesn't hesitate and is commited to his tasks now. He's been a stray dog all his life. But he still holds on to that bit of freedom that he had. He's just making use of it when it's convenient, when it works.

Yeah sure he threw away the refrain and acted like his hands aren't stained with sin and crimes. But he's restraining. When you lose your love and you're not given an explanation for it, no matter how much the other person is repenting and thinking, you have no way of knowing. It's not Suzaku's mistake. Lulu never clarified the whole thing. It's just as Ep 15 said. Lulu really wants to be known, but he just can't right now. Being Zero and all, he brought himself this far. He can't just let go of everything he's accomplished. Heck, Suzaku doesn't even know about what's happening right now. Of course he's going to get continuously misled.

All in all, generalizing Lulu's "take hold of your destiny/make it come true" isn't a bad ideal at all. But Suzaku's "change from within" is naturally a better course. He hasn't demonstrated that all well because of Euphemia's death. If I had found out that my best friend casted an order on my love to kill people and ultimately kill her, basically using her as his advantageous pawn, I'd be pretty pissed off too. Especially when he continues to hesitate and runs away. When I get the chance, I'd take him down. Once you do that, what would you do, leave him hanging at the place? Taking him to the Emperor was a natural course. Regardless of backstabbing or not. I think for a person like Suzaku, who didn't value his life very much, losing something like Euphemia takes away his meaning. The one thing which kept him in reality went. And he still doesn't understand why.

Suzaku isn't contradictory. Rather, he's indecisive and mentally weak at times. His frailty of letting emotion take over goes overboard. Doesn't make him contradictory. I won't even go as far to say his actions are contradictory. They're simply paths that he took to reach his goal, while being blinded due to emotional takeover.

Damn, talked too much. I'll say less next time.
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Old 2008-07-21, 22:14   Link #4116
morbosfist
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His "change from within" would be a better course in a different form of government. It's naive in the Britannian Empire, especially with how he's going about it. He just can't see it.
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Old 2008-07-21, 22:24   Link #4117
ApostleOfGod
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His "change from within" would be a better course in a different form of government. It's naive in the Britannian Empire, especially with how he's going about it. He just can't see it.
Yeah, I can somewhat see where that comes from. In the Holy Britannian Empire, it doesn't go very far. You got an Emperor that's immortal.. and a whole bunch of stuff that he doesn't really know about. Still, he's trying. Not really right now though. Right now he's just getting on the OoTBK's butt, bent on the thought of... Revenge, fixing, restoring order, whatever else he can come up with. Still, he believes he's in the right. Can't blame him. He didn't kill an innocent girl working for the change that he believes in. A change that could have worked. Administration of Japan. But it failed due to friend's Geass.

His methods probably won't get far in the Empire. But that doesn't make him contradictory and wrong.

I prefer Cornelia's stance on the Geass, as well as Lulu's. Suzaku's more careless about all of Geass though, from what I see.
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Old 2008-07-21, 22:27   Link #4118
Mr.Mo
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Originally Posted by MonkeyDude View Post
I just go by his philosophy that the means must justify the end. Then his so called girlfriend dies (which still pretty much felt like a forced relationship to me) and he goes on his so called character change. I don't mind the whole "going against the friend" but I have a problem with "selling your friend in exchange for power".
Just wondering but would you call the murderer of your lover/wife a friend?

Quote:
Yeah it must suck living a privileged life during your childhood and killing your dad due to your own selfishness. I'm sure Suzaku led a life of hell compared to Lelouch and Nunnally. Why is he going with the flow when he is supposed to be changing the system, or did he forget his goals to focus on his personal vendetta against LL/Zero? The fact that he is a Knight of Rounds is a contradiction to his beliefs, but I guess that's a pointless argument given that he threw away his beliefs after Euphemia's death.

I try to analyze his character using both seasons, not just R2. Maybe that's why I find him full of contradictions...
I don't think he himself knows what he wants to do. I think he pretty much accepted that "Ok, I will help everyone as much as possible by showing the racists that we can do what they can do".
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Old 2008-07-21, 22:42   Link #4119
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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I don't think he himself knows what he wants to do. I think he pretty much accepted that "Ok, I will help everyone as much as possible by showing the racists that we can do what they can do".
And Suzaku sort of did that... He got Charles to give him the KotR position by showing an 11 can be as much of a heartless bastard as a Britannian.

"I am a monster just like you! Can I join your club please?"
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Old 2008-07-21, 22:44   Link #4120
Mr.Mo
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lmao. that's one way to look at it i guess. >.<
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