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Old 2008-04-19, 11:08   Link #421
Dann of Thursday
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Suzaku is delusional plain and simple, he probably won't break out of it, until its too late. Suzaku's only goal right now is to kill LeLouche.
He isn't the Suzaku from season 1 so he isn't deluding himself anymore. He is much more realistic from the looks of things. And his goal is to use his position to change things from within. Also, he wants to kill Zero.
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Old 2008-04-19, 11:20   Link #422
HayashiTakara
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A tool for killing can't do that, and thats all he is. Even if he gave the king a blow job he won't convince him to change things.
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Old 2008-04-19, 11:22   Link #423
Dann of Thursday
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You're being much too hard on him than is needed. Sure he has bad qualities and such, but so do a lot of other characters in this show.

And how do you know he can't? Granted, I don't see the dream as being that realistic myself, but that is beside the point.
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Old 2008-04-19, 11:25   Link #424
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the only way to truly empathize with suzaku is to come up with convoluted rationalizations. with a sauron or grendel type of villain this is an acceptable approach. why did grendel attack hrothgar's hall? well, because he was a monster and that is just the sort of thing that monster's do, no?

every time i hear suzaku's twisted rationalizations about working w/i the system and his ridiculous notions of justice, i get the same feeling as when i watch a horror film wherein some homicidal killer is on the loose and soon-to-be-corpse #8 goes down into an unlit basement to check on a mysterious sound. you know what i mean, right? you want to yell at the screen, and berate the character for his obvious stupidity/foolishness. but code geass isn't a horror film, and we don't get the satisfaction of seeing suzuka's gutted for his stupidity.

i get that some few people like suzaku, or empathize with him. great. wonderful. nevertheless, MANY people don't "get" suzaku in the least. for us he is little more than an anthropomorphized WTF... who pilots a giant robot and can run vertically across walls.

what really gets me is that it would be so easy to fix suzaku as a character. after all, how difficult would it be to come up with a plausible reason for an individual to want to fight against perceived terrorism? again, from a writer's pov such rationales don't even have to be reasonable; you merely have to create enough plausibility so as to make empathy possible.

regardless, if a significant % of your audience can't empathize with a non-monster character, then you have failed as a writer. to be fair, the code geass story arc is hardly complete, so perhaps suzuka will finally be humanized and rehabilitated as a character, but for the moment, i have no idea why the writers would want to make suzaku such a... ponce.

dts
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Old 2008-04-19, 11:26   Link #425
HayashiTakara
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Thats exactly the point, its unrealistic. Suzaku is trying to make something happen that is impossible. Suzaku's best chance is to assassinate the king and take the throne himself... seriously do you see the king as the type to go... "oh I was wrong, I don't wanna rule the world, I love all gods creations!" Nope, he's a manical madman, and Suzaku is delusional to believe otherwise.
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Old 2008-04-19, 11:50   Link #426
Dann of Thursday
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It is unrealistic, but he seems to believe otherwise so let him do so. He may eventually come to the realization he was wrong in this regard.

And the Emperor isn't a madman. He actually seems quite intelligent and merely enforces the policy of survival of the fittest.
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Old 2008-04-19, 11:52   Link #427
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^ thats a madman just like a nazi
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Old 2008-04-19, 11:56   Link #428
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Madman doesn't mean, crazy psychopaths who runs around wearing womens underwear weilding a cleaver.

The craziest people are usually very intelligent and composed. Think back to Ted Bundy, a mass murder, but no one knew. He was very well groomed, highly intelligent, composed, and all around nice guy. But, he killed women in the most cruel manner possible.
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Old 2008-04-19, 11:57   Link #429
Dann of Thursday
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That depends on interpretation. And despite how horrible a person the Emperor might seem, his way of doing things did get results. Even C.C. noted this.
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Old 2008-04-19, 11:59   Link #430
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Exactly! Destroy and rebuild, thats the way of the world. Its been proven throughout history as the most effective manner.
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Old 2008-04-19, 12:00   Link #431
Dann of Thursday
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No, not destroy and rebuild. She noted how the Emperor used such a policy in order to get the very best.
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Old 2008-04-19, 12:02   Link #432
Sol Falling
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I chuckled reading this. It does not take a large sum of intelligence and/or awareness to discern stupidity and hypocrisy from smart actions. While Suzaku's actions may be justifiably 'good' or for the 'greater good', they are still self-satisfying goals that are warped by his own hypocritical view of the world. Then, some of his actions, which go completely against both his own reasoning and reason in general, are purely idiotic. For example, in the second episode, when the Japanese woman is falling to her death, Suzaku opts to save her (one person) instead of stopping a terrorist who would kill many, many more people. Ironically, that woman was going to be killed later by Clovis if not for Lelouch. Some of his actions are simply not thought out, and are, more or less, jerk reactions to him trying to 'change' Japan from the inside out.
Yeah, I know it's not that hard. That's how I'm able to discern stupidity and hypocrisy in pretty much every post that treats Suzaku like the greatest evil within the show. As for momentary lapses in reasoning and impulsive actions, are you gonna tell me you have never done something not entirely thought out or in line with the greater good? Not that your example is all that great anyway, as how was Suzaku supposed to know that that one guy he let get away was gonna go on to become Zero with the aim of trying to topple the entirety of the Britannian Empire?

Quote:
Perspective is a nice thing, however, not all perspectives are equal. In fact, some are plain idiotic and shouldn't even be considered. So while it's nice that everyone has their own ability to percieve from a given scene or Season, it does not really give them unquestionable right to put that perspective up for show and vigorously defend it. Especially when there is little to no backing to the idea.

I also find it hilarious that you find it convenient to insult the opinions of everyone who does not agree with you (the irony is amazing). That train of thought (or is it perhaps a strain?) stops working past the 3rd Grade. At which point, you need to actually argue points and not simply dismiss them as: "Lulz you wrong, I right!"

Every human is hypocritical, that is part of human nature. Now, time for me to crawl back into my closed little world.
Yeah, not all perspectives are equal. You know the ones that are the most idiotic, though? The ones that have the arrogance to think they have the quality to judge another human. I find it hilarious that you're accusing me, instead of all the random posts thrown into this thread about 'yeah, I hate Suzaku, he's just a hypocrite', of not actually arguing points and not dismissing other people as simply wrong. Go back and look over the several other posts I've made in this thread before you come accusing me of just saying 'lulz you're wrong I'm right' again.

Seriously. Who's calling who deluded here? All I've said is for people to get off their high horses and stop judging Suzaku, and here we have people questioning my rational capabilities. That's the definition of hypocrisy to say I can't judge them right back.
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Old 2008-04-19, 12:03   Link #433
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Of course its destroy and rebuild. Thats what conqueoring is. You destroy a nation, you assimilate the people and rebuild its structure. Big bad Emperor man rules with an iron fist, he controls through fear and manipulation. You gets you results, but it also leads to subsurveant revolutions and lose of power in eventual time. People can handle being oppressed for only so long.
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Old 2008-04-19, 12:03   Link #434
Dann of Thursday
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In regards to the comment about idiots being those that have the arrogance to judge another human, that is pretty much exactly what Suzaku does. Actually, a lot of people do that in this show.
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Old 2008-04-19, 12:07   Link #435
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Yeah, I know it's not that hard. That's how I'm able to discern stupidity and hypocrisy in pretty much every post that treats Suzaku like the greatest evil within the show. As for momentary lapses in reasoning and impulsive actions, are you gonna tell me you have never done something not entirely thought out or in line with the greater good? Not that your example is all that great anyway, as how was Suzaku supposed to know that that one guy he let get away was gonna go on to become Zero with the aim of trying to topple the entirety of the Britannian Empire?



Yeah, not all perspectives are equal. You know the ones that are the most idiotic, though? The ones that have the arrogance to think they have the quality to judge another human. I find it hilarious that you're accusing me, instead of all the random posts thrown into this thread about 'yeah, I hate Suzaku, he's just a hypocrite', of not actually arguing points and not dismissing other people as simply wrong. Go back and look over the several other posts I've made in this thread before you come accusing me of just saying 'lulz you're wrong I'm right' again.

Seriously. Who's calling who deluded here? All I've said is for people to get off their high horses and stop judging Suzaku, and here we have people questioning my rational capabilities. That's the definition of hypocrisy to say I can't judge them right back.
So... we can't judge a fictional character, but you have the right to judge real people? I guess hypocrites like to stick together, huh?
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Old 2008-04-19, 12:10   Link #436
ashlay
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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
In regards to the comment about idiots being those that have the arrogance to judge another human, that is pretty much exactly what Suzaku does. Actually, a lot of people do that in this show.
Suzaku, Lelouch, Emperor, Kallen, Rollo, Ougi, Shirley, Nina, Cornelia, blah, blah, blah.

Unless we're talking about a moral judgement vs. "you are my enemy, I'll kill you", then that would only really be Rollo at this point...maybe.
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Old 2008-04-19, 12:20   Link #437
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Well, right now I think Suzaku is a big [?]. I mean, if he wished he could have killed Lelouch at the end of R1 but he took him to the Emperor so Zero was put to sleep for a whole year. About Lelouch's recovered memories I don't think they can be trusted, after all the Emperor is not stupid and geass is no joke. I think Suzaku is planning something, I don't know if he's alone or not however.
Either the case Suzaku's personality changed quite a lot. He is now cold and straight almost like a machine executing it's pre programmed code whatever this code is.
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Old 2008-04-19, 12:21   Link #438
Sol Falling
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Heh, I guess that's why I don't emphathise completely with any of the characters in the show, then. Still, point out exactly how many people Suzaku has judged, then? I'd say the only person he's ever 'judged' has been Zero (he's judged the actions of the Black Knights as well, but there's the thing: just because someone does something wrong doesn't mean they're a bad person. It takes an understanding of the circumstances and motivations to reasonably make that extension.). Contrast this with Lelouch's constant speeches and talking downs towards aristocrats etc.

I find it interesting, really, how so many of Suzaku's detractor's claim that his behaviour is either irrational or deluded. Honestly, that's just the sign of a poor imagination. Gromnir said above that the writer's haven't provided nearly enough plausible evidence to make Suzaku a sympathetic character, but that's not true. There's a lot of material in the show, from his upbringing, his initial personality, his reaction to the destruction of his homeland, his father's massecre, the aftermath of his father's massacre and Suzaku's reaction to that, to his friendship with Lelouch. Suzaku's words and actions have an internal consistency to them, and they show a clear path of his beliefs and the way they have developed. All you have to do is look for them and actually care enough to try to figure it out, but it seems like a lot of people are just not willing to do that.

edit: HayashiTakara, good job there, trying to make me look bad. I guess that's part of why you think you're so much more clever than Suzaku, eh? What I said there was clearly just me giving you guys a taste of your own medicine. I'll stop judging you once you stop judging him.
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Old 2008-04-19, 12:32   Link #439
ashlay
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Toudou in 18, Kallen in 19. His lack of judgment against Clovis in 2 and Jeremiah in 4 and Cornelia in 7 and Schneizel in 18 and 20 may was well count too.

Up until 20, Suzaku's actions are completely deluded and irrational (well, they're rational in their own warped way, but not for any of the reasons he gives), and he's even somewhat out of reality in 20-25. But by the end of 25 and onward, Suzaku is completely grounded in reality once more.
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Old 2008-04-19, 13:21   Link #440
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Suzaku is delusional if he thinks he'll be able to change anything. At the end of the day he is just another pawn to be used and sacrificed by the Emperor. If he wants to change anything he needs to challenge Charles and become emperor and I'm sure Schneizel would just sit back and let him do that >_>

Best way to change a system like Britannia is to bring it down by force, i.e what Zero wants to do.
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