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Old 2008-04-19, 13:40   Link #441
ashlay
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Suzaku is delusional if he thinks he'll be able to change anything. At the end of the day he is just another pawn to be used and sacrificed by the Emperor. If he wants to change anything he needs to challenge Charles and become emperor and I'm sure Schneizel would just sit back and let him do that >_>

Best way to change a system like Britannia is to bring it down by force, i.e what Zero wants to do.
And what if Lelouch's rebellion was actually going to fail? Wouldn't he be the delusional one then? What if he succeeded? What's going to happen then? Have you seen the future, can you assure Suzaku that discrimination won't just continue?

Can you assure reforms won't occur once Wakamoto dies? That whatever he's planning isn't going to change the world somehow? That Suzaku couldn't get Schneizel to change things? That more people that think like Euphie or the student council won't be born in future generations as long as the system is preserved for them to take advantage of and change?


We have a severe advantage over Suzaku as viewers. But as a character in the show with limited information about the course of the story, he's not delusional at all.
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Old 2008-04-19, 13:42   Link #442
HayashiTakara
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Same things you can say about the american revolution, eh? And look how it turned out.
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Old 2008-04-19, 13:42   Link #443
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Suzaku is delusional if he thinks he'll be able to change anything. At the end of the day he is just another pawn to be used and sacrificed by the Emperor. If he wants to change anything he needs to challenge Charles and become emperor and I'm sure Schneizel would just sit back and let him do that >_>

Best way to change a system like Britannia is to bring it down by force, i.e what Zero wants to do.
Technically, if Suzaku still genuinely want to change the system without fighting directly, he could find another Royal (out of a dozen or more) who is in need of a good Knight. By offering his services with the intention of supporting the Royal into taking over the Throne, Suzaku could have some political leverage in getting something done to his specifications. Euphie fell into his lap and was once his ticket to success. But even after she died, that shouldn't stop Suzaku from getting a new supporter.

By becoming a Knight of the Round, however, Suzaku has thrown his lot in with the Emperor. There will only be a new Emperor over Suzaku's dead body.
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Old 2008-04-19, 13:50   Link #444
Sol Falling
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You know, I actually saw Suzaku as becoming more righteous following the events of 23 than before. Suzaku didn't seem to 'return to reality' or anything to me--rather, it seemed like he became even further grounded in his beliefs about what is right and wrong.

I'll give you Toudou (that's episode 17 you're talking about, isn't it?), but it didn't quite feel like he was condemning him as a person during that exchange regardless. As for Kallen, I don't see what you mean; his interactions with Kallen outside the battlefield have mostly been attempts at reconciliation and getting her to leave the Black Knights, so it's clear that he still regards her as a good person.

Not quite sure what you mean about not judging people being examples of self-righteously judging people.

Anyway, again on this delusion/irrationality thing. What exactly are people basing this on? What are you presuming Suzaku to believe, and what are the motives you accuse him of acting towards?

It seems to me that Suzaku holds these central beliefs: 'Change from within is possible', and 'It's not worth killing people to force them to do what you want'. Suzaku also has a strong, emotional aversion to the deaths of innocent people, and sees Britannia as too powerful an entity to ever be overthrown by a rabble of rebels.

'k? Now, the 'change from within' belief is something that many people claim as farfetched. I'm gonna ignore the bias that Britannia is wholly evil for a moment, but I'm gonna ask you to consider things from Suzaku's perspective for a moment. First of all, the Honourary Britannian system exists--this is a fairly strong reinforcement for his belief, and may have been what inspired it in the first place. Second, he was drafted as a test pilot for the Lancelot based on his own abilities--although this was an unusual situation, Suzaku didn't have any reason to believe it could never happen again. Third, he recieved a promotion from Cornelia, and although originally was not intended to be used in battle, was allowed to sortie when the situation required it. Fourth, he was selected as the knight of Euphemia--an extraordinary person among the Imperial family to be sure, but there is no indication that she was the only one who could have sympathized with the Numbers (we even have Nunally, too, in support of the idea that there could be more sympathetic members within the royal family). Fifth, the SAZ, though of course that ended badly. Finally we have six and seven, Suzaku's knighting by Cornelia and entry into the Rounds, which were again achieved through an acknowledgement of his power and competence rather than due to the favour of a Royal. From everything we have seen here, it seems like (many parts of) Britannia reward excellence and loyalty, and are willing to abandon prejudice if one proves oneself as useful and able.

'k? So given all of this, even if it seems like a lot of coincidences and luck were involved...I have to ask:given that these are the things Suzaku has experienced, is there a reason for him to abandon his belief that 'change from within is possible'?

Alright, now, 'it's not worth killing people to force them to do what you want'. First of all, I think this belief of his is key evidence that Suzaku still thinks of himself as and identifies with the Japanese. Basically, the way he has expressed this belief has been 'it's not worth destroying Britannia to restore happiness to the Japanese people'. For Suzaku, 'them' is still Britannia and 'us' is still the Japanese. That is why Suzaku fights in the army; he isn't actually interested in the welfare of Britannia as a country, but he wants to tell his people, his fellow countrymen, that it's not worth it to fight. By surpressing the rebels, he aims to achieve this. (Notice how, even now, Suzaku's main concern is with the rebellion in Japan. Vallen Chaos Valient has pointed out quite a couple times that Suzaku has spent the last year fighting in Europe, but during that period, terrorist activity within Japan had stopped. However, almost immediately upon the revival of Zero and the Order of the Black Knights, Suzaku is right back to fight them in his homeland, if the spoilers for episodes 4/5 are true).

Now, one question many people ask, is 'why does Suzaku believe this?' It seems foreign to them. After all, America was founded with 'give me liberty or give me death!' and society in general today seems to hold national identity and sovereignty (in the form of democracy) as a fundamental right. People also like to imagine themselves as idealists and intellectuals who would be able to give their lives for a greator cause. The thing is, though, Suzaku's reasons for holding his belief have nothing to do with this.

The reason basically ties into his murder of his father. Suzaku, at first, seems to be a fairly empathetic/kind kid who feels very strongly about the lives of other people. There's some insights in the sound episodes about why this is (it's particularly interesting in terms of how Lelouch may have been the one to inspire Suzaku's growth into someone who could look beyond himself and move past his 'selfish' personality), but the point is that Suzaku reacted very strongly to the carnage around him after Britannia's initial attack. This, combined with the fact that the Japanese were completely outclassed during the war and had only managed to amass one victory over the course of the entire conflict, lead Suzaku, at a young age, to conclude that Japan had to surrender for the sake of the civilians. On this account Suzaku killed his father (obviously after much angsting and some conflict/argument). However, the Japanese were not saved. Even after Suzaku commited that act, even after Suzaku sacrificed his father and his national pride, the Japanese still suffered. Now we don't really have a clear idea of Suzaku's life during the seven years between the murder of his father and his reunion with Lelouch, but I think it's clear that he was not satisfied with the results of his action. Like he said to Kallen in episode 19:

"I don't have any intention of giving up. But I know it. I know what will be left behind when you try to achieve results using the wrong methods. It's just a sense of loss and regret."

How does he know? Because he did it. Suzaku himself tried to achieve results (the safety of the Japanese people) using the wrong method (the killing of his father). This is where his conviction comes from. Suzaku saw his father as an evil man, someone who 'thought the world revolved around them' and was willing to give up the lives of millions of his people for the sake of his own personal pride--who wanted to adopt a do or die resistance against Britannia instead of accepting that he was wrong for provoking them into attacking Japan and surrendering for the sake of the people. But even though Suzaku believed that, in the end he still lost when he killed his father, something he could not take back. So that is why he tries to tell the Japanese, his fellow people who are suffering under the oppression of the Britannian Empire, that force is not the answer.

So there you go, really. That's who Suzaku is 'up until episode 20', and I would say even beyond that. Why don't you tell me again, where the delusion and irrationality is?

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2008-04-19 at 14:14.
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Old 2008-04-19, 14:04   Link #445
HayashiTakara
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The "honorary Britanian" thing is a complete hoax. They created that title to create snitches, and place false belief that they can one day be equals. You still see these so called HB's being treated like garbage.

Suzaku being a test pilot for the lancelot was because he stole it and was shown that he was able to control it better than anyone before, and that scientist guy, whats his face, wanted Suzaku. So they allowed it for him to be a guinea pig. Suzaku was then used as a tool by Cornelia to kill rebels. Then Euphemia the ignorant fluffy girl that she is, chose him to be her knight, raising anger amongst the nobles. Nobody approved it.

The only reason why Emperor man, allowed Suzaku to be a knight was because he was shown to be a heartless machine, and he could use him. Selling out your friend, killing your father, yeah, anyone from the outside looking in will see him as a heartless bastard.

Suzaku tolerates massacre, he watches it happen everyday to the japanese. But he does nothing about it, thats what you call tolerating.

Its delusional when you think you can change something has rotten as the Britannian gov't from within, thats where the delusional part comes in. He doesn't realize he's just being used, Euphemia is a unique experience that he'll never have again. She was sheltered and ignorant, knows nothing of politics and the outside world. And if the whole incident with LeLouche didn't happen, I'm certain the her daddy would put a bullet in her head anyways.
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Old 2008-04-19, 14:28   Link #446
Voduar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
decent stuff
Now with your position expressed like that, it is easier to respond. You may be right about Suzaku believing its not worth bringing change through killing, but he certainly does kill a number of people to stop a change. Not saying these points can't be forced together, but it is a fairly annoying combo for a main character to have.

As to why Suzaku is hated as much as he is, it might be worth it to take a moment to notice the role he fulfills in the plot. As a character, he is supposedly a foil to Lelouch(though that seems sort of secondary). As a plot device, he is the person that wrecks everyone else's passionately desired plans. He shows up when the main character needs him not to. He is basically the writers conceptual d-block to Lelouch's otherwise unbelievable successes. In almost any situation where there is not Suzaku, Lelouch's rebellion would have come to fruition, and he would be leading an actual war against Britannia.
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Old 2008-04-19, 14:37   Link #447
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Rebel: You're one of us! Why are you killing your own and fighting for our oppressors

Suzaku: I'm not one of you.

Rebel: WTF?! Our children are suffering, our people are slaughtered and abused on a daily basis, how can you turn a blind eye to this and assist in the suffering of our people?!

Suzaku: Cause you suck! lollercakes

*closes cockpit of the lancelot and steps on the Rebel*
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Old 2008-04-19, 14:39   Link #448
Eliarine
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...are we watching the same show?
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Old 2008-04-19, 14:45   Link #449
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Technically, if Suzaku still genuinely want to change the system without fighting directly, he could find another Royal (out of a dozen or more) who is in need of a good Knight. By offering his services with the intention of supporting the Royal into taking over the Throne, Suzaku could have some political leverage in getting something done to his specifications. Euphie fell into his lap and was once his ticket to success. But even after she died, that shouldn't stop Suzaku from getting a new supporter.

By becoming a Knight of the Round, however, Suzaku has thrown his lot in with the Emperor. There will only be a new Emperor over Suzaku's dead body.
Most of the stuff though is being done by the Nobles and the other members of the Family.

I mean sure he has a policy that sets the theme but everyone else is still free to do whatever they feel free to do (such as Euphie's SAR zone). So Suzaku may actually be free to do whatever he wants so long as it's not directly affecting the Emperor.

But as I've said before, should someone (And not Lelouch) kill or usurp the throne from the Emperor, that not only throws Suzaku but the rest of the knights out and into whoever's service they wish to be in.
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Old 2008-04-19, 14:47   Link #450
Airi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voduar View Post
Now with your position expressed like that, it is easier to respond. You may be right about Suzaku believing its not worth bringing change through killing, but he certainly does kill a number of people to stop a change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
he wants to tell his people, his fellow countrymen, that it's not worth it to fight. By surpressing the rebels, he aims to achieve this
Sorry Sol I took your quote
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Old 2008-04-19, 15:00   Link #451
Var
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Yeah, I know it's not that hard. That's how I'm able to discern stupidity and hypocrisy in pretty much every post that treats Suzaku like the greatest evil within the show.
That's nice. But hold that thought for a moment...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As for momentary lapses in reasoning and impulsive actions, are you gonna tell me you have never done something not entirely thought out or in line with the greater good? Not that your example is all that great anyway, as how was Suzaku supposed to know that that one guy he let get away was gonna go on to become Zero with the aim of trying to topple the entirety of the Britannian Empire?
The trick here isn't about what I've been doing, it's about what Suzaku does, impulsively, all over the place. For instance, my example (see bolded) is counter to that. The greater good is stopping the terrorist not saving a single woman, we agree, but as a soldier he has priorities that trump any need to actually think. It doesn't matter if the terrorist was Zero or Terrorist A, the terrorist is a terrorist and will, thanks to Suzaku's actions, be given the oppurtunity to kill even more people. There is no greater good here, just impulsive stupidity which comes from Suzaku's personally twisted logic. In conclusion to this point, you completely missed the point of my example. For further examples of generally the same thing:

Suzaku's Blunders of Rationality:
  • Lelouch (Ep 1)
  • Kallen (Ep 19)
  • Todou (Ep 18)
  • Orangii (Ep 4)
  • Clovis (Ep 2)
  • Schneizel/Euphemia (Ep 18/20)

There are more, but I've already made my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Yeah, not all perspectives are equal. You know the ones that are the most idiotic, though? The ones that have the arrogance to think they have the quality to judge another human. I find it hilarious that you're accusing me, instead of all the random posts thrown into this thread about 'yeah, I hate Suzaku, he's just a hypocrite', of not actually arguing points and not dismissing other people as simply wrong. Go back and look over the several other posts I've made in this thread before you come accusing me of just saying 'lulz you're wrong I'm right' again.
Do you see the bolded part? Ok, good. Now, remember that thought I said to hold onto? Well just in case, here's a sequence (I'll bold the trick):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Yeah, I know it's not that hard. That's how I'm able to discern stupidity and hypocrisy in pretty much every post that treats Suzaku like the greatest evil within the show.
Then...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I wonder where all these people get the arrogance to deride another person's intelligence? Honestly, there's something called 'perspective', you know. I find it hilarious how all these sheep, with all the biases and hypocrisies of their own closed little worlds, can come in here and decry 'omg that guy's so retarded, I'm so much smarter than he is!'. ?
The irony is amazing, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
...instead of all the random posts thrown into this thread about 'yeah, I hate Suzaku, he's just a hypocrite', of not actually arguing points and not dismissing other people as simply wrong. Go back and look over the several other posts I've made in this thread before you come accusing me of just saying 'lulz you're wrong I'm right' again.
On a very basic view, I agree with their sentiments that Suzaku is a moron/hypocrite. They may not word it eloquently nor with much cited support, but, in most cases, they are simply contributing on a basis that someone else has built and are agreeing with them. There's also, believe it or not, the fact that twenty other people are already yelling at them to support their claims. What's the point of me telling them over again? If it didn't get through the first time, there's really no reason to try 30 times, not to mention that those people most probably don't care to elaborate.

I've looked over your posts and they tend to ignore details or just spin things into strawman arguments. You had nice arguments to a point, but somewhere along the way you turned your arguments into 'lulz i'm right, you wrong'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Seriously. Who's calling who deluded here? All I've said is for people to get off their high horses and stop judging Suzaku, and here we have people questioning my rational capabilities. That's the definition of hypocrisy to say I can't judge them right back.
People always judge, that is their nature. The audience has perfect right to judge a character and how he is presented, because, after all, the character was created to entertain the audience. As for the rest, the hypocrisy is all encompasing, no single person is free of it, but some people are more guilty than others.

Seemed to have fixed my omition of an entire clause in a sentence.
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Old 2008-04-19, 15:56   Link #452
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Which is why I added in "who saved Suzaku's life numerous times". The acts should cancel out in Suzaku's mind... leaving 'just' a best friend.
Okay, this is from a couple pages back, but this shows an absolute lack of understanding for the human psyche. Emotionally charged things like that don't simply "cancel out". And even if they did (which they don't), you're assuming that Suzaku is rational enough to make that calculation. And even if he could (which he wasn't), you're assuming that he's going to judge things according to your valuation. Do you really think Suzaku is one to evaluate emotion in quantifiable amounts? Do you think any real person could, given that situation?
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Old 2008-04-19, 16:39   Link #453
Gromnir
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i am a big fan of Burt Lancaster. he is one of my favorite american actors, right up there with De Niro and Brando. in Judgment at Nuremberg Burt Lancaster plays the role of Ernst Janning, a German judge being tried for his complicity in Nazi war crimes. the movie is based on the real events surrounding the Judges Trial before the Nuremberg Tribunal in 1948( i probably screwed up the year... so sue me,) in which numerous German judges were tried for war crimes.

it is a powerful movie. the judges on trial note that they were simply doing their job: applying the law without prejudice; if anything, they were patriots. the judges on trial also claim that if not for their actions to curb the abuses of Nazi law, Jews and Gypsies and the retarded would have been treated even worse. the judges on trial note that they never really knew the scope of Nazi atrocities. etc.

Burt Lancaster's character is silent for 80% of the movie. while his fellow German judges defend their actions, Ernst sits quietly and says nothing. you wait the entire movie in anticipation of the moment Ernst Janning will speak. you Know that Burt Lancaster wouldn't be in the movie simply to sit stoically in a defendant's chair. the fact that Burt's soliloquy does not disappoint given the build-up is truly amazing.

for those who would suggest that backing the legitimate government insulates suzaku from sin or that his "trying to bring about change from within" has any validity whatsoever, i recommend listening to Ernst Janning speak on the subject. the arguments you are making to defend suzaku are so frighteningly similar to those made by the German Judges on trial at Nuremberg, though not quite so dangerously compelling.

nevertheless, here is the rub of it: suzaku's attempt to bring about change from within is an expression of extreme naivety, but one i could endure if not for his claims about Justice and the impropriety of using unjust means to achieve a worthy goal. clearly suzaku's actions, and the actions of Britania regarding the 11s, are unjust and tainted. suzaku has bloodied his hands and supported a govt. that is oppressive and cruel and yet he has the gal to claim that he cannot side with zero because of zero's unjust methods. THAT is the root of my claim that suzaku is a hypocrite.

but then i sigh, and, with a piece of scripture,
tell them that God bids us do good for evil:
and thus i clothe my naked villainy
with odd old ends, stol'n out of holy writ;
and seem a saint, when most i play the devil.

-richard iii, act I, scene iii

at least richard does not try to delude himself that he is actually the hero, eh? at least richard knows that he is a villain.

but again, regardless what any of the pro-suz folks feel, the fact that so many people are annoyed by suzaku's backwards arsed reasoning and arrogant proselytizing shows that he is not a well written character. the writers failed to make the requisite connection with the audience so that we could empathize with him. if so many people don't "get" suzaku, then that is failure in the writers and not the audience.

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Old 2008-04-19, 16:55   Link #454
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That line of reasoning suggests that the Rebellion is 100 percent pure and good which is shown not to be the case all the time. Certainly they appear more just than Britannia and they might be. However just like Britannia isn't completely made up of bad people (see Lloyd Cecile the Ashford Student Council) the Order isn't full of people that are all holy and good. See Dumbass Tamaki who constant rages against Britannia and has beaten Britannian's even if they don't really deserve it, and who bullied and was gonna kill in cold blood a bunch of school kids for no reason other then they dared suggest Zero promised not to harm them.

This kind of attitude is no better than Britannia and while people might say that Britannia deserves a taste of their own medicine that attitude will not bring about a peaceful world. It will just make one group feel better about themselves and another miserable and oppressed.

This is shown in real life. WWII could have been prevented all together had the Allies forgiven Germany for what they did in WWI and imposed fair conditions. Instead they blamed the whole war on Germany took nearly all their money their military and generally treated German's like crap all over for a few years making Germany bitter miserable and easy for the Nazi's to take over a few years later. Because the Allies wanted to make themselves feel better and make Germany pay they only worsened the situation years later.
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Old 2008-04-19, 16:55   Link #455
SoldierOfDarkness
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Pretty sure it was made out for us to hate him.

I mean if Suzaku is suppose to be Lelouch's foil then we are suppose to like one and hate the other no?

To add onto Aquaman's quote, prior to the invasion, while Britannia was conquering colonies, Japan was oppressing other nations through economic control and keeping them in poverty.

But then again this show is about Lelouch and his rebellion so of course his side is just.
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Old 2008-04-19, 17:02   Link #456
Gromnir
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"That line of reasoning suggests that the Rebellion is 100 percent pure and good"

surely you aren't responding to me. suzaku's hypocrisy is not in anyway dependent on the subjective rightness of the rebels. don't get confuse yourself with a moral balancing act. even if zero was slaughtering newborn babies to kali before every battle it would not somehow absolve suzaku of his sins or make him any less a hypocrite. sure, you could claim that suzaku is choosing the lesser of two evils, but that is not His claim, is it?

"This is shown in real life. WWII could have been prevented all together had the Allies forgiven Germany for what they did in WWI and imposed fair conditions."

wow. talk about an oversimplification... but it is beside the point in any event. see above.

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Old 2008-04-19, 17:07   Link #457
Aquaman OS
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What sin? Because he didn't like the idea of Zero and a violent rebellion thats a terrible sin? That line of reasoning would once again suggest that every Britannian that doesn't support Zero is a sinner. Which is all of one not counting Zero himself.
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Old 2008-04-19, 17:14   Link #458
ashlay
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The point isn't that Suzaku is absolved from previous actions, it's that Suzaku is no longer a hypocrite: he's no longer a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he does not hold in order to conceal his real feelings and motives.

Suzaku is perfectly honest about what he wants, and he doesn't care how he gets it. No morals, no ideals, no beliefs. Nothing is holding him back. His actions and motives at very last match.

Is Suzaku naive? perhaps. But certainly no more than Lelouch. He's not suddenly a hypocrite again because he bet on keeping the system instead of betting on destroying it.


So go ahead, call Suzaku a traitor or a murderer or evil, anything like that, since he's certainly those things. But he is no longer a character who can simply be dismissed.
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Old 2008-04-19, 17:21   Link #459
Gromnir
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"That line of reasoning would once again suggest that every Britannian that doesn't support Zero is a sinner."

again, it isn't dependent on zero whatsoever. just because suzaku doesn't follow zero does not mean that he must fall in line with britania, does it? of course not. if he has such high ideals then how can he possibly fight for britania? but shucks, suzaku is a pawn/tool of Britania. "i was just following orders" never absolves you of your sins. never has and never will.

regardless, it would seem that you are still missing the point about the core of suzaku's hypocrisy. suzaku talks big about how just ends cannot be accomplished through unjust means, but he fights for britania, and clearly we have been shown britanian excess no? heck, we have seen suzaku take part in missions in which unarmed civilians were killed and where soldiers who were surrendering were fired upon and killed.

suzaku talks big about how a just result cannot be purchased with unjust means, but he fights to support britania in any event, a regime which clearly is not above dispensing a little wanton injustice.


in any event, there is no reason to keep bringing up zero. zero has nothing to do with whether or not suzaku can reasonably square his espoused ideals concerning justice and his service to britania.

dts
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Old 2008-04-19, 17:24   Link #460
SoldierOfDarkness
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Let's get some things clear up here shall we?

Most of us here are pretty much defending or supporting post R1 Suzaku. It seems your still latching onto pre R1 Suzaku.

And when did Suzaku participated in mission killing unarmed civilians?
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