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Old 2008-08-09, 01:18   Link #5061
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Okay, this actually makes no sense. He captured Lelouch (who would NOT have freed Japan at that time because Jeremiah showed up and prevented him from capturing Cornelia in a battle he KNEW he was going to lose without taking her as a hostage) but he captured Lelouch because of what he DID to him. He was betrayed by someone he consider his closest friend in the worst way possible. He didn't force his views on Lelouch. He took in a criminal and an enemy. This is still war and he still has to do his job any way he sees fit. That goes for everything else you just said too. He is a soldier and a soldier has to do his duty.
Lelouch never said he was going to lose, only that he wanted to use her. He's resourceful and likely would have worked around it. However, the many things that fucked up his plans is a discussion for somewhere else.

Yes, Suzaku sought out Lelouch because of what he did, but he still did it knowing what Lelouch was doing. Left to his own devices, Lelouch had the potential to set Japan free, for however short a time. He recognizes this, however skewed, when Kallen shows up. He rationalizes it as lying. Suzaku disobeyed orders in his rage to capture Lelouch, and took that opportunity away. Soldiers have to do their duty, but they are not mindless idiots and it is always possible to resign. Somewhere along the line he could have realized that his people stood a chance of gaining their freedom through rebellion, but no. All Suzaku does is force his will upon them by staying. He is (or maybe was, KoR is probably harder to quit) hardly in a position where he has no choice but to fight. Every moment he stays is a decision he makes to fight the people fighting for their freedom.

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Also, before Lelouch screwed things up with the SAZ the first time, opinions were SPLIT by civilians in the ghettos between Britannian rule because of what Suzaku accomplished and the Black Knights. There is actually still some mix in opinion during the second SAZ actually (not as much, but really, that was because of what happened.) So not everyone wants rebellion (or there would have been a lot more Black Knights.)
The people were handed their country and name back on a platter. Of course that would sway opinions. People tend to be enthralled without seeing the bigger picture.
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Old 2008-08-09, 01:19   Link #5062
El_Negro
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Doing his JOB is not the same thing as forcing his views on anybody. He is doing thing his way just like Lelouch is doing things his way. So I don't see the issue here. Also, before Lelouch screwed things up with the SAZ the first time, opinions were SPLIT by civilians in the ghettos between Britannian rule because of what Suzaku accomplished and the Black Knights. There is actually still some mix in opinion during the second SAZ actually (not as much, but really, that was because of what happened.) So not everyone wants rebellion (or there would have been a lot more Black Knights.)
True not everyone would want a rebellion and would rather not get involved but the one million people who dressed up as Zero to leave the next SAZ Establishment still showed that they rebelled against Britainnia, so there was still a rebellion, eitherway.
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Old 2008-08-09, 01:23   Link #5063
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Originally Posted by Stargaze View Post
Indeed, that is what he chose to do. He is acting according to the Brittannian rule. The moment the crushed the rebellion is imposing the view on the Japanese. Why do people rebel? Because they have they own views and that they are not content with the current situation. He did not let people choose for themselves, how did he? Rebellion is what the people chose, by crushing that, he is forcing everyone to follow what he think is best.

He voiced his opinion... so? But in doing so, he is interfering with others' freedom. Thus "strong arming" people.
He didn't crush any rebellion,if anyone crushed that Rebellion it's the creator of that rebellion himself by choosing his sister over everyone else

While it is true that people did rebel, it was also true that at least half of the population support Suzaku until Lelouch cheated...Talking about letting people choose for themselves Lelouch never let anyone choose for themselves,he only makes them think that they made the choice but in reality there are no other choice but to follow his choice
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Old 2008-08-09, 01:28   Link #5064
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Doing his JOB is not the same thing as forcing his views on anybody. He is doing thing his way just like Lelouch is doing things his way. So I don't see the issue here.
Doing his job is not forcing his views on anyone? Let me remind you, he chose this job and therefore the job and his actions reflects his thoughts. His job forces people to conform so he is then forcefully imposing his view on others.

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Also, before Lelouch screwed things up with the SAZ the first time, opinions were SPLIT by civilians in the ghettos between Britannian rule because of what Suzaku accomplished and the Black Knights. There is actually still some mix in opinion during the second SAZ actually (not as much, but really, that was because of what happened.) So not everyone wants rebellion (or there would have been a lot more Black Knights.)
Mix opinion is natural, most people will rather choose to conform than rebel. Rebelling is an extreme way which comes in the price of blood and lives. But surely no country will ever willingly wish to be controlled, and discriminated by another. I'm pretty sure most wish to reform their home country Japan, but not so many will be willing to actually get up and take action.
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Old 2008-08-09, 01:29   Link #5065
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
He didn't crush any rebellion,if anyone crushed that Rebellion it's the creator of that rebellion himself by choosing his sister over everyone else
That's how people in the show see it, and it is stillsomewhat true from an outside perspective. He "killed" Zero and ended their rebellion. If he hadn't been there, who knows how it could have gone.

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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
While it is true that people did rebel, it was also true that at least half of the population support Suzaku until Lelouch cheated...Talking about letting people choose for themselves Lelouch never let anyone choose for themselves,he only makes them think that they made the choice but in reality there are no other choice but to follow his choice
They didn't support Suzaku, they admired him. If he had some plan it would be support. As for Lelouch and choice, unless Geassed directly, people always have a choice when it comes to Lelouch's methods. What makes Lelouch good at what he does is making those choices obvious. The people still think they are choosing, even if their choices are guided to a probable conclusion. Suzaku is choosing for his people, directly, because he believes his way is better than theirs.
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Old 2008-08-09, 01:29   Link #5066
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Lelouch never said he was going to lose, only that he wanted to use her. He's resourceful and likely would have worked around it. However, the many things that fucked up his plans is a discussion for somewhere else.
The Black Knights were losing before even Lelouch left. Toudou even was getting worried right when Lelouch called him to give him full command. They had no shot at winning. They were totally outgunned and out manned.

Quote:
Yes, Suzaku sought out Lelouch because of what he did, but he still did it knowing what Lelouch was doing. Left to his own devices, Lelouch had the potential to set Japan free, for however short a time. He recognizes this, however skewed, when Kallen shows up. He rationalizes it as lying. Suzaku disobeyed orders in his rage to capture Lelouch, and took that opportunity away. Soldiers have to do their duty, but they are not mindless idiots and it is always possible to resign. Somewhere along the line he could have realized that his people stood a chance of gaining their freedom through rebellion, but no. All Suzaku does is force his will upon them by staying. He is (or maybe was, KoR is probably harder to quit) hardly in a position where he has no choice but to fight. Every moment he stays is a decision he makes to fight the people fighting for their freedom.
What part of Suzaku disagreeing with Lelouch's methods did you miss through the series?

Suzaku knew his choice wasn't easy, but he was resolute in going with his choice. He isn't so weak as to back out of what he thinks is the right path to let what he thinks is the wrong path win. Especially after what Lelouch did to allow that rebellion to happen.

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The people were handed their country and name back on a platter. Of course that would sway opinions. People tend to be enthralled without seeing the bigger picture.
WRONG. Opinions were split before the SAZ was even brought up by Euphemia. Actually, it was brought up in I believe Episode 18 of S1 that the opinions were split.
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Old 2008-08-09, 01:33   Link #5067
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Originally Posted by Stargaze View Post
Doing his job is not forcing his views on anyone? Let me remind you, he chose this job and therefore the job and his actions reflects his thoughts. His job forces people to conform so he is then forcefully imposing his view on others.
This is false. Suzaku isn't forcing anybody not to rebel. Just that he thinks rebelling is not the right method and that if they do rebel, he will be there to stop them. That is all he is doing. If he was really forcing his views on people, he wouldn't have let Kallen go like he did in S1. He still has to do his duty and he will do that duty just like Lelouch has to do his for his method.

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Mix opinion is natural, most people will rather choose to conform than rebel. Rebelling is an extreme way which comes in the price of blood and lives. But surely no country will ever willingly wish to be controlled, and discriminated by another. I'm pretty sure most wish to reform their home country Japan, but not so many will be willing to actually get up and take action.
You may be right. But if opinion is still mixed, then the point is still moot.
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Old 2008-08-09, 01:36   Link #5068
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
The Black Knights were losing before even Lelouch left. Toudou even was getting worried right when Lelouch called him to give him full command. They had no shot at winning. They were totally outgunned and out manned.
They were hardly outgunned. both sides had an equal amount of forces. They were disadvantaged by their goal. The government building is a fortress, and they failed to break through.

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
What part of Suzaku disagreeing with Lelouch's methods did you miss through the series?

Suzaku knew his choice wasn't easy, but he was resolute in going with his choice. He isn't so weak as to back out of what he thinks is the right path to let what he thinks is the wrong path win. Especially after what Lelouch did to allow that rebellion to happen.
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
This is false. Suzaku isn't forcing anybody not to rebel. Just that he thinks rebelling is not the right method and that if they do rebel, he will be there to stop them. That is all he is doing. If he was really forcing his views on people, he wouldn't have let Kallen go like he did in S1. He still has to do his duty and he will do that duty just like Lelouch has to do his for his method.
Suzaku has made his decision to stay a soldier and enforce Britannian rule. Every time he pilots that Knightmare is a choice to continue that. Your statement is contradictory. If he is stopping rebellions then he is forcing his opinion upon them. He may have kept quiet about Kallen, but only because he wanted to convince her to switch back. In the larger scheme he is still forcing his opinions on others.

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WRONG. Opinions were split before the SAZ was even brought up by Euphemia. Actually, it was brought up in I believe Episode 18 of S1 that the opinions were split.
If you're referring to that conversation between the Black Knights about killing Suzaku, I don't see that implying disapproval. Diethard made the case that Britannia could use Suzaku as a symbol to oppose Zero.
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Old 2008-08-09, 01:38   Link #5069
blitz1/2
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I think it would be a good idea to combine Lulu and Suzaku's character threads together and then discuss again.
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Old 2008-08-09, 01:41   Link #5070
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
He didn't crush any rebellion,if anyone crushed that Rebellion it's the creator of that rebellion himself by choosing his sister over everyone else

While it is true that people did rebel, it was also true that at least half of the population support Suzaku until Lelouch cheated...Talking about letting people choose for themselves Lelouch never let anyone choose for themselves,he only makes them think that they made the choice but in reality there are no other choice but to follow his choice
Him fighting against the rebellion is enough to say he assisted in crushing the rebellion. His intention is all it matters. Lelouch choosing his sister over the rebellion is a tactical mistake, that resulted in the rebellion failing.

Half the people supported Euphy's idea. And they only did so because as I stated before, it is only natural that people will take the easy way out. SAZ was the closest thing that the Japanese can achieve without a rebellion. Brittannian and Japanese coexisting together, how nice. The idea is awesome for the Japanese since they were stripped of everything: their country, their name and most of all, their pride as Japanese.

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Originally Posted by Stargaze
Mix opinion is natural, most people will rather choose to conform than rebel. Rebelling is an extreme way which comes in the price of blood and lives. But surely no country will ever willingly wish to be controlled, and discriminated by another. I'm pretty sure most wish to reform their home country Japan, but not so many will be willing to actually get up and take action.
There you go, it may be that Lelouch didn't give them a choice, but I'm pretty sure that is what they all wanted in the end.

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Originally Posted by Orga777
This is false. Suzaku isn't forcing anybody not to rebel. Just that he thinks rebelling is not the right method and that if they do rebel, he will be there to stop them. That is all he is doing. If he was really forcing his views on people, he wouldn't have let Kallen go like he did in S1. He still has to do his duty and he will do that duty just like Lelouch has to do his for his method.
How is that not forcing anybody? I don't understand. People want to rebel, and he stops it and tells them that it is wrong. How is that not forcing his views on others? First of all, he chose his duty, and since he chose it, this duty of his reflects his perspectives. His duty tells him to stop the rebellion and this leads us back to the point I stated at the start.
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Old 2008-08-09, 01:48   Link #5071
Orga777
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
They were hardly outgunned. both sides had an equal amount of forces. They were disadvantaged by their goal. The government building is a fortress, and they failed to break through.
Which means they were outgunned.

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Suzaku has made his decision to stay a soldier and enforce Britannian rule. Every time he pilots that Knightmare is a choice to continue that. Your statement is contradictory. If he is stopping rebellions then he is forcing his opinion upon them. He may have kept quiet about Kallen, but only because he wanted to convince her to switch back. In the larger scheme he is still forcing his opinions on others.
Is he forcing anybody to join his side? THAT is forcing his views on people. He isn't forcing his views on anybody with his method any more than Lelouch is. He is doing what has to be done to try and get what he wants to happen. There is nothing wrong with that.

Quote:
If you're referring to that conversation between the Black Knights about killing Suzaku, I don't see that implying disapproval. Diethard made the case that Britannia could use Suzaku as a symbol to oppose Zero.
I am talking about the beginning of Episode 18 where we see people in the ghettos arguing with each other in who to follow and then going to Lelouch who is saying "Opinions are split even in the ghettos."
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Old 2008-08-09, 01:49   Link #5072
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They didn't support Suzaku, they admired him. If he had some plan it would be support. As for Lelouch and choice, unless Geassed directly, people always have a choice when it comes to Lelouch's methods. What makes Lelouch good at what he does is making those choices obvious. The people still think they are choosing, even if their choices are guided to a probable conclusion. Suzaku is choosing for his people, directly, because he believes his way is better than theirs.
They admired him so that when the SAZ came around with his name in it more people decided to join,they supported him and his princess.
Lelouch is playing with fire by making his choice the obvious ones! Every things he ever accomplished were base on lying. If I ever learn that someone killed my master or family or both so that I can decide to follow that someone,I'd want that man head...
Suzaku is forcing people into a less bloody path and even if you think it's wrong it's way better than making people choose your side by faking incidents and get their closed ones killed..
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Old 2008-08-09, 01:51   Link #5073
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Which means they were outgunned.



Is he forcing anybody to join his side? THAT is forcing his views on people. He isn't forcing his views on anybody with his method any more than Lelouch is. He is doing what has to be done to try and get what he wants to happen. There is nothing wrong with that.



I am talking about the beginning of Episode 18 where we see people in the ghettos arguing with each other in who to follow and then going to Lelouch who is saying "Opinions are split even in the ghettos."
Lol at your first statement. Umm, it's not that the Black Knights were getting owned, it's just that they have suffered heavy casualties to the brink of ultimate defeat.
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Old 2008-08-09, 01:58   Link #5074
morbosfist
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Which means they were outgunned.
Outgunned means the other guy has more guns. If two guys are shooting cannons at each other and one is doing so from the top of hill, he just has the advantage. Of course, now we're fighting over semantics.

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Is he forcing anybody to join his side? THAT is forcing his views on people. He isn't forcing his views on anybody with his method any more than Lelouch is. He is doing what has to be done to try and get what he wants to happen. There is nothing wrong with that.
In fact he is. People join Lelouch's cause of their own free will. Suzaku joined the military and is fighting those same people because their method is wrong in his eyes. By fighting them, he is forcing his views upon them. it would be one thing if he disagreed, but he is actively fighting them. That is forcing his views.

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
I am talking about the beginning of Episode 18 where we see people in the ghettos arguing with each other in who to follow and then going to Lelouch who is saying "Opinions are split even in the ghettos."
Episode 21 is where that scene occurs, and it's not Zero who says that, but since it does happen I'll give you that point.

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They admired him so that when the SAZ came around with his name in it more people decided to join,they supported him and his princess.

Lelouch is playing with fire by making his choice the obvious ones! Every things he ever accomplished were base on lying. If I ever learn that someone killed my master or family or both so that I can decide to follow that someone,I'd want that man head... Suzaku is forcing people into a less bloody path and even if you think it's wrong it's way better than making people choose your side by faking incidents and get their closed ones killed..
His name was not attached to it. People joined because of what it represented. Lelouch playing with fire really has little to do with it. The point is with him people get their choice. Choice is a powerful thing. People like to be able to choose, and they get pissed when they lose that. No, it is not a good thing to force people onto a better path against their will, because people do not like that. It is always better for them to have the choice.
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Old 2008-08-09, 02:02   Link #5075
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They admired him so that when the SAZ came around with his name in it more people decided to join,they supported him and his princess.
Lelouch is playing with fire by making his choice the obvious ones! Every things he ever accomplished were base on lying. If I ever learn that someone killed my master or family or both so that I can decide to follow that someone,I'd want that man head...
Suzaku is forcing people into a less bloody path and even if you think it's wrong it's way better than making people choose your side by faking incidents and get their closed ones killed..
That is true, forcing people to chose because u think it's the best way, but their is no right & wrong way, there is only a way, it's all a matter of opinion, based on a person perception and ideology of morals & ethics.

Morally & Ethically Suzaku way is right
Morally & Ethically Lelouch way is wrong

but at the end of the day we can see from this season that Lelouch is making more progress than suzaku although this progress will soon bite him in the ass because of is immoral & unethical acts, but what do u expect, Lelouch stated himself clearly that he had to become evil in order to destroy evil basically fighting fire with fire.

Suzaku wrong in that he thinks he knows what best for his people and he's imposing his will regardless, but does he really know what's best for them?

the only thing that would prove whose method is successful in the end is time//history, if Lelouch did overthrow them and recreate a new order or system then his method is right, if Suzaku accomplish his grandoise dream of being KoO then his method is right.

I'd prefer a wait and see approach on this as the story unfolds
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Old 2008-08-09, 02:03   Link #5076
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In fact he is. People join Lelouch's cause of their own free will. Suzaku joined the military and is fighting those same people because their method is wrong in his eyes. By fighting them, he is forcing his views upon them. it would be one thing if he disagreed, but he is actively fighting them. That is forcing his views.
I am sorry, they are on opposing sides. That is what happens when there are opposing sides. What? Suzaku is just going to roll over? He still has to do his job. This is conflicting view points. Not forcing his will on anybody else. In war, the loser gives up stuff. That is just the way things work. Doesn't mean they are opposing their opinions on anybody.
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Old 2008-08-09, 02:10   Link #5077
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I am sorry, they are on opposing sides. That is what happens when there are opposing sides. What? Suzaku is just going to roll over? He still has to do his job. This is conflicting view points. Not forcing his will on anybody else. In war, the loser gives up stuff. That is just the way things work. Doesn't mean they are opposing their opinions on anybody.
As I have said, the option is always their for him to leave. Service has never been marked as compulsory. Suzaku believes that the system must be changed from within. By joining the Britannian Army to do that, he is put in opposition with all those who disagree. That he continues to fight them, knowing he is fighting his own people and their desires, is forcing his will upon them. He is making the statement that he will fight against anyone who doesn't work within his beliefs, which means to him they are wrong. Hell, he's said it at least twice (episode 13, episode 17).

In a way, war is nothing but opinions clashing. Whoever wins gets their opinion validated and the loser gets theirs stomped on. To envoke Godwin's law, the Nazi's believed only they were fit to rule, and fought to make that opinion fact. Others fought to uphold equality or whatever range of conflicting viewpoints fall in that line, and they won. Their opinion was deemed right, the other wrong.
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Old 2008-08-09, 02:13   Link #5078
Orga777
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
As I have said, the option is always their for him to leave. Service has never been marked as compulsory. Suzaku believes that the system must be changed from within. By joining the Britannian Army to do that, he is put in opposition with all those who disagree. That he continues to fight them, knowing he is fighting his own people and their desires, is forcing his will upon them. He is making the statement that he will fight against anyone who doesn't work within his beliefs, which means to him they are wrong. Hell, he's said it at least twice (episode 13, episode 17).
Then that means neither of them are better than the other. So... why were we arguing this again?
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Old 2008-08-09, 02:15   Link #5079
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Then that means neither of them are better than the other. So... why were we arguing this again?
That's one way to put it. The only difference, as I've argued before, is that with Lelouch you get choice or at least the illusion of it. You don't get that with Suzaku.

Honestly, I forget why I argue anything. It's just enjoyable.
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Old 2008-08-09, 02:25   Link #5080
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His name was not attached to it. People joined because of what it represented
NO,his name was attached to it...Euphie said that they joined because of Suzaku,unless she was lying to make him happy which is unlikely,we have proof that Suzaku name was attached to the SAZ and more people joined because he was there..

Quote:
The point is with him people get their choice. Choice is a powerful thing. People like to be able to choose, and they get pissed when they lose that. No, it is not a good thing to force people onto a better path against their will, because people do not like that. It is always better for them to have the choice.
Yes,It's always better to have the power to choose for yourself until you learn that it wasn't really your choice.And are you telling me that being fooled is better than knowing the truth?
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