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Old 2008-08-09, 02:32   Link #5081
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
NO,his name was attached to it...Euphie said that they joined because of Suzaku,unless she was lying to make him happy which is unlikely,we have proof that Suzaku name was attached to the SAZ and more people joined because he was there.
Okay, he served as a symbol which made people more receptive. Suzaku doesn't even agree with the assessment I might add, but I'll give you that. But that doesn't mean he had support, only that he served as a symbol.

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Yes,It's always better to have the power to choose for yourself until you learn that it wasn't really your choice.And are you telling me that being fooled is better than knowing the truth?
This is not about the truth, this is about the choice. No doubt people hate being lied to, but until then they had the ability to choose. They never get that with Suzaku.
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Old 2008-08-09, 02:49   Link #5082
Orga777
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Okay, he served as a symbol which made people more receptive. Suzaku doesn't even agree with the assessment I might add, but I'll give you that. But that doesn't mean he had support, only that he served as a symbol.
Um... He did have support. People had a lot of support for Suzaku before the whole SAZ disaster (which he ended up being blamed for I might add.)

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This is not about the truth, this is about the choice. No doubt people hate being lied to, but until then they had the ability to choose. They never get that with Suzaku.
So they can't choose to be on Suzaku's side or something?
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Old 2008-08-09, 02:50   Link #5083
DN24
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Suzaku doesn't even agree with the assessment I might add
That's call being polite and humble..a good knight qualities

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But that doesn't mean he had support, only that he served as a symbol.
What's the differences? People believed/like him so that they joined,basically half of a nation would rather having Suzaku "forces" his will on them than to go to war with Zero.

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They never get that with Suzaku.
What's worse is that they never get that with LL either,they only think they do. But of course they don't know it so they'd feel better
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Old 2008-08-09, 02:55   Link #5084
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Um... He did have support. People had a lot of support for Suzaku before the whole SAZ disaster (which he ended up being blamed for I might add.)
They associated him with it, but didn't blame him directly. It's bad rep by proxy. Also, I still don't equate admiration with support. He doesn't have anything to support. He just served as a symbol.

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So they can't choose to be on Suzaku's side or something?
Only if they choose to not to fight him. Suzaku's goal doesn't require choice or support from anyone, and more importantly it requires stopping those who choose a different path. Suzaku's methods eliminate choice, because he is the one doing the work. With a rebellion, one can choose to join it, choose to fight against it, or stay neutral, and all three have a direct affect on how well it does.

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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
What's the differences? People believed/like him so that they joined,basically half of a nation would rather having Suzaku "forces" his will on them than to go to war with Zero.
No, that he served as a symbol made people go along with Euphy's idea, not Suzaku's. Suzaku's ideals had nothing to do with it.

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What's worse is that they never get that with LL either,they only think they do. But of course they don't know it so they'd feel better
Exactly, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
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Old 2008-08-09, 03:00   Link #5085
Orga777
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
They associated him with it, but didn't blame him directly. It's bad rep by proxy.
No. He was blamed too. They pretty much lumped him together with "The Massacre Princess."

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Also, I still don't equate admiration with support. He doesn't have anything to support. He just served as a symbol.
This makes no sense. He had people that did admire him for becoming a Knight. Some of them even thought that anything is possible. Did you miss all of that when the ghettos were split?

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Only if they choose to not to fight him. Suzaku's goal doesn't require choice or support from anyone, and more importantly it requires stopping those who choose a different path. Suzaku's methods eliminate choice, because he is the one doing the work. With a rebellion, one can choose to join it, choose to fight against it, or stay neutral, and all three have a direct affect on how well it does.
So, joining a rebellion also means you have no choice then. Once you join you have no choice but to force your views on someone else by bringing down the ruling party. So... what are you even trying to say? Eitehr way there is no "choice." There is Brtainnia, Black Knights, or none. The only ones that have any choice are the ones stuck in the middle and if they pick a side they lose their "choices" too then.
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Old 2008-08-09, 03:02   Link #5086
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I really think if there was no Zero, Suzaku Loses.
Who thinks he can change charles? Is this even Possible without Zero
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Old 2008-08-09, 03:09   Link #5087
DN24
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If he can served as a symbol he can also get people to join his cause when the time comes,just that simple.Common people was not even sure if the current Zero is the same man as the last one,but because he has the mask they'd believe him.....

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Exactly, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Disagree, that's the worst thing possible.Instead of only being "forced" you get being "fooled" as an extra....

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I really think if there was no Zero, Suzaku Loses.
Who thinks he can change charles? Is this even Possible without Zero
That go for both side..Without Suzaku,there'd be no Zero..
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Old 2008-08-09, 03:11   Link #5088
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
No. He was blamed too. They pretty much lumped him together with "The Massacre Princess."

This makes no sense. He had people that did admire him for becoming a Knight. Some of them even thought that anything is possible. Did you miss all of that when the ghettos were split?
Here we're arguing semantics, but oh well. I'll give you the blame thing, though it still is a matter of blame by proxy. And how is admiration support? Yes, they admired him. He served as a symbol of a Number doing the impossible, but this isn't support.

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
So, joining a rebellion also means you have no choice then. Once you join you have no choice but to force your views on someone else by bringing down the ruling party. So... what are you even trying to say? Eitehr way there is no "choice." There is Brtainnia, Black Knights, or none. The only ones that have any choice are the ones stuck in the middle and if they pick a side they lose their "choices" too then.
Yes, by joining a side you're forcing a choice on the other party. Not everyone gets to see their choice succeed. However, they had the ability to choose. With Suzaku's method, no one gets to choose, or are limited to conflicting or indifferent choices. They can't really choose to support him, because he hasn't given a position to support. No one knows what he's planning except him. You cannot support that which you are ignorant of. They can choose to oppose him, but that won't stop him, nor does it really affect his goal by itself. If anything, it helps because he gains cred with the system. Finally, they can sit back and watch.

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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
If he can served as a symbol he can also get people to join his cause when the time comes,just that simple.Common people was not even sure if the current Zero is the same man as the last one,but because he has the mask they'd believe him.....
Key word: "served." What support he had he lost when he killed Zero. And he already has a cause he's told no one about. Suzaku does not care what people think. What matters to him is that he's right. it's similar with Lelouch, but he's smart enough to make people go along with him.

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Disagree, that's the worst thing possible.Instead of only being "forced" you get being "fooled" as an extra....
Then we agree to disagree. Getting the choice, even if it really isn't one, is better than having no choice at all. This show is big on this particular dilemma.
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Old 2008-08-09, 03:17   Link #5089
Orga777
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Yes, they admired him. He served as a symbol of a Number doing the impossible, but this isn't support.
I don't get what you mean then. People went to the first SAZ because he was tehre supporting it. He was pretty much a driving force.

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Yes, by joining a side you're forcing a choice on the other party. Not everyone gets to see their choice succeed. However, they had the ability to choose. With Suzaku's method, no one gets to choose, or are limited to conflicting or indifferent choices. They can't really choose to support him, because he hasn't given a position to support. No one knows what he's planning except him. You cannot support that which you are ignorant of. They can choose to oppose him, but that won't stop him, nor does it really affect his goal by itself. If anything, it helps because he gains cred with the system. Finally, they can sit back and watch.
How does "no one get to choose" if they say "I prefer Britannian rule." That IS choosing a side damn it.

Also, the "support you are ignorant of" fits Lelouch more than it does Suzaku. People KNOW for sure what Britannia wants. Nobody really has much of a clue about Zero's ambitions. He even hides behind a mask. Talk about "ignorant of." <.<
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Old 2008-08-09, 03:22   Link #5090
morbosfist
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I don't get what you mean then. People went to the first SAZ because he was tehre supporting it. He was pretty much a driving force.
In Euphy's opinion. People went there mostly because they got their name and country back.

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How does "no one get to choose" if they say "I prefer Britannian rule." That IS choosing a side damn it.

Also, the "support you are ignorant of" fits Lelouch more than it does Suzaku. People KNOW for sure what Britannia wants. Nobody really has much of a clue about Zero's ambitions. He even hides behind a mask. Talk about "ignorant of." <.<
Just because one does not choose to fight doesn't mean they like Britannian rule.

As to Lelouch, people don't need to support his ambitions. They support his goal of freeing Japan. They're choosing to help for their own reasons.
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Old 2008-08-09, 03:26   Link #5091
Orga777
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
In Euphy's opinion. People went there mostly because they got their name and country back.
That doesn't mean that Suzaku being there didn't add to the trust level.


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As to Lelouch, people don't need to support his ambitions. They support his goal of freeing Japan. They're choosing to help for their own reasons.
And they have to listen to Mr. Hides-Behind-A-Mask-Who-Doesn't-Share-His-Own-Ambitions. That would be an issue. Following a man who you don't know.
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Old 2008-08-09, 03:31   Link #5092
morbosfist
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That doesn't mean that Suzaku being there didn't add to the trust level.
Which I don't deny. Doesn't mean they support the man, though, only that his presence convinces them to support the idea.

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And they have to listen to Mr. Hides-Behind-A-Mask-Who-Doesn't-Share-His-Own-Ambitions. That would be an issue. Following a man who you don't know.
Good thing Lelouch has a silver spoon in his mouth then. Zero is a symbol, too. He's a symbol of hope, the man who can fight and beat Britannia. Much like Suzaku, he serves as inspiration to support the cause.
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Old 2008-08-09, 03:32   Link #5093
Orga777
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Which I don't deny. Doesn't mean they support the man, though, only that his presence convinces them to support the idea.

Good thing Lelouch has a silver spoon in his mouth then. Zero is a symbol, too. He's a symbol of hope, the man who can fight and beat Britannia. Much like Suzaku, he serves as inspiration to support the cause.
Then are we really just arguing for the sake of arguing?
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Old 2008-08-09, 03:35   Link #5094
morbosfist
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Then are we really just arguing for the sake of arguing?

We probably are.
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Old 2008-08-09, 04:52   Link #5095
kaefer_zwei
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haha... tomorows the big day... i think this the climax for suzaku's character... the do or die situation... all or nothing... hahaha... well atleast he goes out with a bang... just one step closer to the edge... good side... he'd be together with euphie... 6 feet under the ground or in 7th heaven..
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Old 2008-08-09, 04:54   Link #5096
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Uh...he isn't going to die.
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Old 2008-08-09, 05:03   Link #5097
Orga777
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Uh...he isn't going to die.
Let the deluded have their false hopes.
It is impossible to talk to them any other way after all.
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Old 2008-08-09, 08:26   Link #5098
El_Negro
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
If he can served as a symbol he can also get people to join his cause when the time comes,just that simple.Common people was not even sure if the current Zero is the same man as the last one,but because he has the mask they'd believe him.....



Disagree, that's the worst thing possible.Instead of only being "forced" you get being "fooled" as an extra....



That go for both side..Without Suzaku,there'd be no Zero..
Um even without Suzaku there'd still be a Zero because Britainnia is still oppressing the Areas to their subjective rule, the only difference is that Zero would reach Charlie alot faster but would not be fully prepared to face him besides all the plot holes concerning CC & Marieanne would have 2 b resolved first.

Suzaku serves as the perfect counter to Lelouch's goal and aid's in both his and Lelouch's character development and progress, that's all
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Old 2008-08-09, 08:33   Link #5099
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Um even without Suzaku there'd still be a Zero because Britainnia is still oppressing the Areas to their subjective rule, the only difference is that Zero would reach Charlie alot faster but would not be fully prepared to face him besides all the plot holes concerning CC & Marieanne would have 2 b resolved first.

Suzaku serves as the perfect counter to Lelouch's goal and aid's in both his and Lelouch's character development and progress, that's all
Uh...without Suzaku Lelouch would have died in the first episode by those grunts
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Old 2008-08-09, 08:50   Link #5100
Methuselah
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Or get bombed up by our Nippon extremist.
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