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Old 2008-08-11, 19:01   Link #5501
Orga777
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
It was a gun. He can just detach it and drop it. I'll give you the second point.
The problem with just dropping said weapon and gun would risk it getting taken by the enemy. Also, didn't he take it out only after the Geass kicked in?

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Originally Posted by MonkeyDude View Post
Yeah since it definitely takes hours to remove an attached rifle on a mech Just had to quote this for utter stupidity!
Um, yes? It his still heavy as hell. Do you think anyone had time to wait for it to be taken down by heavy machinery? Yeah right.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:02   Link #5502
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
It was a gun. He can just detach it and drop it. I'll give you the second point.
The weapon in itself was a bluff (or at least used as a deterrent).

You can't use it as a detterent if you don't even have it on the field.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:03   Link #5503
Var
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
The problem with just dropping said weapon and gun would risk it getting taken by the enemy. Also, didn't he take it out only after the Geass kicked in?
He can just drop the weapon inside the Avalon. He could not sensibly bring out a weapon of that magnitude, that no one had ever heard of before, and think a bluff would work. The same happened in WWII. No one believed what the atomic bomb did, until... it did it.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
The weapon in itself was a bluff (or at least used as a deterrent).

You can't use it as a detterent if you don't even have it on the field.
"Zero, the Avalon is ready to fire a tactical weapon. Give up now."
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:03   Link #5504
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
In fact I am not changing the rules. Suzaku's Geass only activates when he gives up or expects to die, not when he merely has a chance.
That's only because there hasn't been any other situation where he was going to die but gives up. I would think that being ordered to live means it would have to happen regardless. There's zero reason to think only that exclusive circumstance would apply. If your order is to live, you need to do whatever you can to live.

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He only gave that order after their battle got underway.
Think back to episode 17. I know it was a long time ago, really, but think: the same exact thing would've happened anyway.

Regardless of your personal opinions on the matter, not to appeal to authority, but the writers specifically set things up so you're not supposed to blame Suzaku and are supposed to sympathize. I know that won't change how you react, but generally that's how it's supposed to work.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:03   Link #5505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
And as I have said, just because there was no escape does not mean his Geass would activate. Giving up is what did it. As for why he was fighting, he never had to fight. He eliminates his own options. He didn't have to humor Nina and he didn't have to fly out with the bomb.
I just disagree on that point. Realizing he was going to die is what activated it. The geass wasn't "live only if you don't feel like it" it was a command to stay alive. When it was clear he wasn't going to be able to then it kicked in. Deciding to atone made him not want to make pointless moves, but thinking he was about to be killed is what did it. And how after all these posts are we back at the discussion of why he went out with the bomb? Didn't we discuss this point to death yesterday? Not even going to bother there.
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He obviously thought he stood a chance when Gino made the offer. Does he think so little of Gino's skills? It was only after he decided she wouldn't let him go and attacked her that the reality set it.
Kallen took down Bradley in only a few moments. Its already 2 on 1 against Gino. You think any skills will matter once it becomes 3 on 1 with one of those being the Guren? Suzaku knew that Gino would be annihilated in that kind of situation. No matter how skilled he is its suicide. Unless you want to argue Gino could beat all three of them?
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:05   Link #5506
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
The problem with just dropping said weapon and gun would risk it getting taken by the enemy. Also, didn't he take it out only after the Geass kicked in?

Um, yes? It his still heavy as hell. Do you think anyone had time to wait for it to be taken down by heavy machinery? Yeah right.
Not if he did it on the Avalon. What's Nina gonna do? He has the detonator and the Knightmare-sized rifle is lying on the floor of a empty hanger. Yes, he only fired it once Geass activated, but that doesn't affect how easy it is to remove.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
The weapon in itself was a bluff (or at least used as a deterrent).

You can't use it as a detterent if you don't even have it on the field.
Incorrect. The mere existence of the weapon is enough, assuming people believe you.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:06   Link #5507
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
He can just drop the weapon inside the Avalon. He could not sensibly bring out a weapon of that magnitude, that no one had ever heard of before, and think a bluff would work. The same happened in WWII. No one believed what the atomic bomb did, until... it did it.



"Zero, the Avalon is ready to fire a tactical weapon. Give up now."
I'm pretty sure that everyone except maybe Lloyd, Cecile and Suzaku had no problem firing the weapon.

That and Zero would've called the bluff anyways and Nina or someone would've launched it themselves.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:07   Link #5508
Sports72Xtrm
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
He can just drop the weapon inside the Avalon. He could not sensibly bring out a weapon of that magnitude, that no one had ever heard of before, and think a bluff would work. The same happened in WWII. No one believed what the atomic bomb did, until... it did it.



"Zero, the Avalon is ready to fire a tactical weapon. Give up now."
Well the problem with that var is that he didn't want anyone else to use. It would have gone like
""Zero, the Avalon is ready to fire a tactical weapon. Give up now."
"No."
KABOOM
"That was the Eleven ghetto Shniezel" ;_;
"What of it?"
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:07   Link #5509
Var
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I'm pretty sure that everyone except maybe Lloyd, Cecile and Suzaku had no problem firing the weapon.

That and Zero would've called the bluff anyways and Nina or someone would've launched it themselves.
He did not have to actually have it armed on the Avalon. If its a bluff, just have it disabled. I'm certain Lloyd is smart enough to disable a weapon.

The point is that there are other options to bringing the weapon onto the field directly.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:08   Link #5510
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
I just disagree on that point. Realizing he was going to die is what activated it. The geass wasn't "live only if you don't feel like it" it was a command to stay alive. When it was clear he wasn't going to be able to then it kicked in. Deciding to atone made him not want to make pointless moves, but thinking he was about to be killed is what did it.
It wasn't just thinking he was going to die. He said "this is my atonement" and then told himself to accept his death. That is what activated it.

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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
Kallen took down Bradley in only a few moments. Its already 2 on 1 against Gino. You think any skills will matter once it becomes 3 on 1 with one of those being the Guren? Suzaku knew that Gino would be annihilated in that kind of situation. No matter how skilled he is its suicide. Unless you want to argue Gino could beat all three of them?
Presumably, if Suzaku were to go along, they would trade opponents.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:09   Link #5511
Sports72Xtrm
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
He did not have to actually have it armed on the Avalon. If its a bluff, just have it disabled. I'm certain Lloyd is smart enough to disable a weapon.

The point is that there are other options to bringing the weapon onto the field directly.
How is Lloyd, a knighmare egineer going to disable a completely new weapon that he never helped make. And no there wasn't.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:11   Link #5512
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
He did not have to actually have it armed on the Avalon. If its a bluff, just have it disabled. I'm certain Lloyd is smart enough to disable a weapon.

The point is that there are other options to bringing the weapon onto the field directly.
And I'm sure Nina's smart enough to re-arm the bomb anyways. Schenzeil's the top authority in that case.

With Suzaku taking it, he ensures that no one will ever fire it.

Though everyone seems to have forgotten about his live geass at that point
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:11   Link #5513
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
How is Lloyd, a knighmare egineer going to disable a completely new weapon that he never helped make. And no there wasn't.
Yes, there was. Suzaku is just not smart enough and too stuck on his orders to know better. Lloyd is an engineer and a scientist. He's worked on enough weapons to disarm a detonator.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:12   Link #5514
Var
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Presumably, if Suzaku were to go along, they would trade opponents.
Agreed. Gino set himself to fight Kallen with his words and no forms of restraint from either side (which I'm certain will now happen at some point given everything he said that episode, Gino threw up his own death flag... much like Luciano). Suzaku would have taken on Jeremiah and Guilford, which would have likely been a better fight, while the more mobile Tristan would have fought the more mobile Guren. In general, that should have been a better match.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
And I'm sure Nina's smart enough to re-arm the bomb anyways. Schenzeil's the top authority in that case.

With Suzaku taking it, he ensures that no one will ever fire it.

Though everyone seems to have forgotten about his live geass at that point
I'm still sure that Lloyd, a man that is a genius at what he does, could figure out how to disable a detonator so that a little girl wouldn't figure out. If nothing else, he could just lock up the only other KMFs on the Avalon.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:13   Link #5515
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
He did not have to actually have it armed on the Avalon. If its a bluff, just have it disabled. I'm certain Lloyd is smart enough to disable a weapon.

The point is that there are other options to bringing the weapon onto the field directly.
Have it disarmed? Under who's authority? And I also don't think Lloyd knows the specifics of said weapon since that really isn't his specialty.

If Suzaku didn't bring it, it would have been used. Plain and simple.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:14   Link #5516
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Yes, there was. Suzaku is just not smart enough and too stuck on his orders to know better. Lloyd is an engineer and a scientist. He's worked on enough weapons to disarm a detonator.
Even if he was he would need atleast time to figure it out and the authority to even touch it which he doesn't have. If Shneizel found out Lloyd was disabling the bomb, he'd be in jail.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:14   Link #5517
Var
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Even if he was he would need atleast time to figure it out and the authority to even touch it which he doesn't have. If Shneizel found out Lloyd was disabling the bomb, he'd be in jail.
The Avalon has capacity for only two-three KMFs, if the Freya is left on it, how is it going to get fired?
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:15   Link #5518
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
Even if he was he would need atleast time to figure it out and the authority to even touch it which he doesn't have. If Shneizel found out Lloyd was disabling the bomb, he'd be in jail.
They mounted it on his mech. That's all the authority he needs, especially if Suzaku tells him to.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:15   Link #5519
sLum
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Agreed. Gino set himself to fight Kallen with his words and no forms of restraint from either side (which I'm certain will now happen at some point given everything he said that episode, Gino threw up his own death flag... much like Luciano). Suzaku would have taken on Jeremiah and Guilford, which would have likely been a better fight, while the more mobile Tristan would have fought the more mobile Guren. In general, that should have been a better match.
Then what? Gino dies and the bomb still goes off? What you are saying sacrifices an additional character for no good reason. This is fairly simple

Suzaku/ USA:
WE HAVE "THE BOMB" SURRENDER OR DIE

Japan/ Lelouch:
LIAR!

(USA sends notes all over the cities of the eminent attacks)

Result:
Mass destruction

Whose to blame here? Both parties but one gave a warning.

Edit: People you can't have it both ways. It can either be removed easily and attached easily or it takes a while to install and detach it. If it could be installed easily and attached easily then believe Schneizal would've went trigger happy with the bomb.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:18   Link #5520
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by sLum View Post
Then what? Gino dies and the bomb still goes off? What you are saying sacrifices an additional character for no good reason. This is fairly simple

Suzaku/ USA:
WE HAVE "THE BOMB" SURRENDER OR DIE

Japan/ Lelouch:
LIAR!

(USA sends notes all over the cities of the eminent attacks)

Result:
Mass destruction

Whose to blame here? Both parties but one gave a warning.
I've said this at least three times now. The US gave no warning about the bomb. They said, "Give up or die." Japan didn't buy it.

The bomb wouldn't have gone off if Gino was killed. Suzaku's life controlled the bomb. If Suzaku genuinely let Gino take the helm, he'd be free and clear.
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