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Old 2008-04-21, 21:12   Link #601
Nightengale
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The assumption of his early hypocrisy stands really only if you think he has legitimate intent of 'changing the system.' Which he in fact, never did.

If Suzaku had true and tried intentions of changing the system, he would've build up some sort of Honorary Britannian Faction, and tries to get himself recognized by some external party. (( since conventional rules don't allow HBs to become a Knight, much less rise to a position of remote power. )) As it is, Lancelot was pretty much half-given on a silver platter to him.

That, and Euphemia. She was pretty much a link to that possible change. To dedicate himself to the sole purpose of making Euphemia the next Emperor, that would've been possibly the only opportunity for him to change it from within.

The whole point is that, Suzaku throughout R1 is a man of the flow. Despite his words of changing, he never does anything out of his own violation to ignite anything that would contribute to this 'change.' Lancelot, Euphemia, SAR... every single factor that contributed to his rise came on its own accord. Only his trade with the Emperor was his one true act of power-thirst, and frankly, being the Knight of the very Emperor that STARTED the whole invasion thing is not the most rational behavior to change the system.

For the first half of the entire series, Suzaku never so much made an actual attempt to thirst for power and rise up through the ranks, simply because deep down, he didn't need it since he never wanted to do the whole 'system changing' thing.

I have no issues with Suzaku, really. It's just that unlike Lelouch, he never tried to reach out and grasp that power that would lead to change, even within the rules, which does not back his 'words.' Lelouch, for all his dastardly methods and chaotic presence, do that, and is fully aware he's no saint when it's done and dealt with.
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Old 2008-04-21, 21:16   Link #602
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
Haven't you seen 19, 22 and 25?


bashing doesn't have to make sense, that's why it's bashing. >_>


anyway, Suzaku isn't a hypocrite anymore. If you hate him, you hate him simply because he bet on Britannia instead of the Rebellion in one way or another. It's entirely a personal preference.
Who gave you the right to speak for all of us who don't like Suzaku?

It's not entirely a personal preferance to me.

I see Suzaku as a traitor - I don't see Zero as a traitor (as he's half-Japanese).

I see Suzaku implicitly hold himself to a high moral standard (as per his criticisms of Zero), and fail to meet it.

I don't see Zero doing the same - at least Zero strikes me as being more honest about the true dark nature of some of his methods.

There's more reasons than personal preferance for thinking ill of Suzaku.
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Old 2008-04-21, 21:24   Link #603
Dann of Thursday
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Wait. Who's half Japanese? Suzaku is fully Japanese and Lelouch is fully Britannian.
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Old 2008-04-21, 21:29   Link #604
ashlay
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Who gave you the right to speak for all of us who don't like Suzaku?

It's not entirely a personal preferance to me.

I see Suzaku as a traitor - I don't see Zero as a traitor (as he's half-Japanese).

I see Suzaku implicitly hold himself to a high moral standard (as per his criticisms of Zero), and fail to meet it.

I don't see Zero doing the same - at least Zero strikes me as being more honest about the true dark nature of some of his methods.

There's more reasons than personal preferance for perfering Zero to Suzaku.
Speak for you? I'm just stating a fact, as you just demonstrated:
-Marianne wasn't Japanese
-see episode 27. or 26 and 28. or even 25 really
-see above

You simply prefer Lelouch over Suzaku because:
a) You agree with Lelouch in believing that rebellion can cause change, but Britannia cannot.
or
b) because he hurt Lelouch. And/or Kallen, Nunnally, etc.

Both perfectly valid personal reasons. But it's not as if Suzaku is an automatically reprehensible character at this point compared to anyone on the other side of the conflict. Your personal views on the matters Lelouch and Suzaku differ on simply color him as such.


So, again, there's nothing wrong with hating Suzaku, I just wish people would stop kidding themselves over what the hate is about at this point.
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Old 2008-04-21, 21:34   Link #605
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngale
The assumption of his early hypocrisy stands really only if you think he has legitimate intent of 'changing the system.' Which he in fact, never did.
Well I think that bleeds into another point...Damn maybe this is how I started defending Shinn in GSD^^...I don't like Suzaku and I hope Lulu pwns him in the end, but I can't take the senseless bashing of any character unless you just say what you mean without trying to put some deep pseudo-logic behind it...I think 90% of the people who bash//hate Suzaku do it out of the sheer hatred of the fact he's f*cking with the cool protagonist...Then when they have to defend it they go into hypocrisy and other sidebar issues to make it fit...

Your right at first Suzaku didn't show that intention (I guess we can blame the writers for that, or simply accept it as his guarded way, especially after meeting Yuffie)...But, I also think it's important to note, that even while Suzaku killed his father, in his heart he was never truly a killer...But Lulu, whether he had the Geass or not, deep within his true nature is that of a killer who will kill who he has to to take his revenge and protect his sister...So I guess what I'm saying is that Suzaku's wishy-washyness that occurred early on was more a case of him not having that desire in his heart to seek power by all means in a linear way (Like a Lulu)...Part of it was that he prolly didn't expect to actually like the people he was working for while not liking what they stood for...He's a typical teddy bear turned headcase now because of Yuffie's death...Zero doing that and being his best friend to boot has obviously pushed him too far, however I for one won't bash him for the act of hypocrisy because given the circumstances that was unavoidable at every turn...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlay
So, again, there's nothing wrong with hating Suzaku, I just wish people would stop kidding themselves over what the hate is about at this point.
Which is my point in a nutshell...
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Old 2008-04-21, 21:38   Link #606
Dann of Thursday
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Actually, Taniguchi chose Suzaku's voice actor with the idea that underneath the nice guy is that cold intent to kill. This doesn't say that he is a killer of course.

And I think that what Taniguchi intends Suzaku to be is how he should be judged though of course everyone sees it differently. Suzaku is meant to basically be a highly selfish person who uses morals as a front. Of course, this is season 1 Suzaku so I don't know quite how he works now.
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Old 2008-04-21, 21:40   Link #607
ashlay
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
The assumption of his early hypocrisy stands really only if you think he has legitimate intent of 'changing the system.' Which he in fact, never did.
Huh? But...isn't that right there the textbook definition of hypocrisy?
saying you believe in something you don't?

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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
Actually, Taniguchi chose Suzaku's voice actor with the idea that underneath the nice guy is that cold intent to kill. This doesn't say that he is a killer of course.

And I think that what Taniguchi intends Suzaku to be is how he should be judged though of course everyone sees it differently. Suzaku is meant to basically be a highly selfish person who uses morals as a front. Of course, this is season 1 Suzaku so I don't know quite how he works now.
A person trying hard to be someone they're not.

I want more Lelouch being a completely awesome hero though!
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Old 2008-04-21, 21:41   Link #608
SoldierOfDarkness
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Well said Ngale but you forgot one thing.

Suzaku's objective wasn't about changing the system it was about dying on the field. He wanted to die. I wonder if that makes him a hypocrite though since he wanted to die but claimed to want to change the system.....

Quote:
I don't see Zero doing the same - at least Zero strikes me as being more honest about the true dark nature of some of his methods.
Um yeah ever since Mao revealed the truth Suzaku started to becoming more and more honest with himself (Especially when he revealed to Kallen what happened to his father and such.) It was basically Euphie who picked him up and supported him.

I mean when Lelouch asked him if he was willing to sell his friend to get promoted and said yes I thought that was a straight out honest answer right there.

Definition
somebody feigning high principles: somebody who pretends to have admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings but behaves otherwise

I suppose that still fits in that category given that he claimed to want to change the system but never really wanted to. But then again as Ngal pointed out he was simply going with the flow and encouraging the change one way or the other (indirectly or directly).
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Old 2008-04-21, 21:54   Link #609
wingdarkness
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I mean when Lelouch asked him if he was willing to sell his friend to get promoted and said yes I thought that was a straight out honest answer right there.
=

You killed that sweet little princess who shared my ideal of Japanese and Britains getting along, so yeah I'll sell your scheming, murdering a$$ out...

Atleast that's what I got out of it...
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Old 2008-04-21, 21:58   Link #610
ashlay
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
=

You killed that sweet little princess who shared my ideal of Japanese and Britains getting along, so yeah I'll sell your scheming, murdering a$$ out...

Atleast that's what I got out of it...
he would have responded with something other than "that's right" to "you'd sell out your friend for that?!", tell Lelouch he's just a murderer or some junk like that, if what you're suggesting was true. >_>

Besides: "I won't ask for forgiveness. Lelouch, we're friends, right?"
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Old 2008-04-21, 21:59   Link #611
Dann of Thursday
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I don't think Euphemia had as much to do with it as you think. It was certainly part of it, but by no means the main reason.
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Old 2008-04-21, 22:44   Link #612
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I think 90% of the people who bash//hate Suzaku do it out of the sheer hatred of the fact he's f*cking with the cool protagonist...Then when they have to defend it they go into hypocrisy and other sidebar issues to make it fit...
Yes thats exactly it. That's the main reason I started defending him (and in doing so started to like him) because I can't stand people that do that. It's almost as bad as the Light supporters in DN. Not that theres anything wrong with that and if you like Light and and actually like an support his ideals good for you. But every single hardcore Light fan I've ever spoken to without exception has been a shallow superfical ass who only really likes him because of a. his bishyness b. the fact that he kills people like he does or c. they wish they had a magical notebook of death so they could kill people they don't like.

That being said stop being hypocrites yourselves and just come out and say that you don't like him because he doesn't support the almighty Lelouch, or that he reminds you of Kira Yamato (who I'm starting to hate just because his actions in Destiny have created Suzaku and CB haters by default). Nothing exactly wrong with that but just be honest. If you legitimately dislike him for his character faults that fine but at least be honest.
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Old 2008-04-21, 22:56   Link #613
ashlay
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That being said stop being hypocrites yourselves and just come out and say that you don't like him because he doesn't support the almighty Lelouch, or that he reminds you of Kira Yamato (who I'm starting to hate just because his actions in Destiny have created Suzaku and CB haters by default). Nothing exactly wrong with that but just be honest. If you legitimately dislike him for his character faults that fine but at least be honest.
*sigh* if only Kira had been written with an actual story and personality instead of moving ever closer to a cardboard cutout after SEED's halfway point. >_<

Speaking of Kira, still wondering what Michael Garret is going to do in Code Geass, they must have inserted him into the story for some reason.
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Old 2008-04-21, 23:18   Link #614
Nightengale
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To me, Suzaku in R1 was more of a boy with mental problems. A boy whom by betraying the 'rule of the Japan' by stabbing his dad and refusing Japan their free will to do-and-die had to force himself into the rule he helped establish in less than 24 hours, aka Britannia's. Sure, hypocrisy, but I wouldn't fault him. In R1, I considered him still the same boy he was when he killed his father. He couldn't bring himself to move on, because that would mean that everything he did was wrong. Let's not forget in his youth, he was a selfish little rich kid who lived by his own pride and his own rules. If he accepted he was wrong because of what he forcefully thought was right, and that thought lead to the deaths of many, he obviously couldn't live with it.

R2's Suzaku is still up to debate. He's clearly more chaotic, but the question remains that how much of the factors that changed his outlook (( Euphie, Lelouch's betrayal in his opinion, etc )) affected him.

As for Gino K1 Garret, the most rational line of thought would be fodder for Suzaku's further descent to the dark side. But this is Code Geass, so who knows?
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Old 2008-04-22, 00:07   Link #615
ashlay
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
As for Gino K1 Garret, the most rational line of thought would be fodder for Suzaku's further descent to the dark side. But this is Code Geass, so who knows?
no, actually I meant the guy in the far right of this shot. (he also appears in the opening... >_>)




Gino seems cool enough, though yeah, he's also a pretty standard sacrificial lamb type, so I'm not expecting that much out of him. *sigh* I wish the Kira haters would leave Hoshi alone already, he's a fine voice actor.
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Old 2008-04-22, 00:09   Link #616
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Wonder when we'll see the new girls for the Order making an appearance now?
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Old 2008-04-22, 00:13   Link #617
ashlay
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Wonder when we'll see the new girls for the Order making an appearance now?
Now that there is really unrelated to Suzaku. >_>
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Old 2008-04-22, 00:39   Link #618
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Made him a hypocrite Triple_R. Past tense. Every last bit of that Suzaku died with his capture in 24. >_>
I'm basically with you Ashlay, but I think Suzaku's conversion occured in episode 19 rather than episode 24. In 19 Suzaku was able to talk about his father's death and empathize emotionally with Kallen. As for the cause of it, I think any of his relationship with Euphie, what Lelouch said to him about his patricide, the 'Live!' geass, or even just time could have lead to his mellowing out. Euphie's death lead him to grief and confusion, which was converted to rage by V.V., but not such a blind rage that he would turn on his best friend Lelouch without some understanding of Lelouch's character.

Anyway, on the 'Suzaku has geass' talk...not really? I think what episodes 19 and 22 indicated was that Suzaku has the potential for geass? Like, the projection of C.C. that he saw in 22 was similar to the one Lelouch saw in episode 1. As far as 25 goes, he did meet V.V., but there was no indication that V.V. did anything more than talk to him and since we haven't seen any hint of the red light that seems to indicate geass around Suzaku, any claims that Suzaku's physical abilities can be attributed to a geass are baseless, in my opinion.
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Old 2008-04-22, 00:39   Link #619
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Suzaku said that things should be done the right way. Do you know what Suzaku means by 'the right way'? The only 'right way' Suzaku is going to stick to is what he thinks is the right way, so you have to think about Suzaku's actions from the perspective of his own values to able to judge whether he's a hypocrite or not.
No I don't, because that's BS. WTF thinks they're hypocrites?? I can bet not many people think they're hypocrites even if they are. So the whole 'think only from the chars perspective to see if they're hypocrites' angle doesn't work because people genuinely don't think they're being hypocrites. Hence why I said you need to look at all angles.


Quote:
'k, so what you're saying here is that Suzaku claims he has these virtues:

-Thinks he does things the right way
-Doesn't want to kill innocents
-Fights so that people don't die

and his actions show that he actually doesn't?

In that case, in order to prove that he's a hypocrite, you're going to have to prove that:

-Suzaku doesn't actually think he does things the right way
-Suzaku actually wants to kill innocents
-Suzaku is fighting so that people die

lol 'k, good luck with that.
Again, I don't think you know what the meaning of a hypocrite is. As Klashikari stated before, hypocrisy is NOT just doing the opposite of your stated values. It is also the failure to uphold your own espoused values when actions that go against your values are being done, or when you join an organization that GOES against your own espoused values.

So let's see. Suzaku murdering his father? Was that done the right way? No. Suzaku joining any army that guns down innocent 11s, was that not killing innocents? Suzaku joining an army which is sent to kill people on the battlefield and his reason for doing so? 'so people don't die' . In all of those cases, Suzaku has failed to uphold his own values which is why I say Suzaku is a hypocrite. He may have no power to do so and shit happens, but again, that doesn't mean he isn't a hypocrite. He's just willing to temporarily rationalize his own values or sell them out for the moment because at the end, he believes it'll be for the greater good. Again, I say that doesn't stop him from being a hypocrite.

Look, like wingdarkness said, everyone's a hypocrite at one point or another. And that's normal because in order to not end up being a hypocrite, you have to have insanely high self-awareness at all times. Which just isn't possible.

And personally, I think a lot of people on this board just don't want Suzaku to be a hypocrite because him sticking to his virtues/values and being semi-white knightish is what attracts them to him. -_-
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Old 2008-04-22, 00:47   Link #620
Nightengale
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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
no, actually I meant the guy in the far right of this shot. (he also appears in the opening... >_>)


Er...

Panda's (( Schniezel )) personal knight?

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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
Gino seems cool enough, though yeah, he's also a pretty standard sacrificial lamb type, so I'm not expecting that much out of him. *sigh* I wish the Kira haters would leave Hoshi alone already, he's a fine voice actor.
Yeah, ★ gets a lot of flak for being Kira' VA. I suppose he gets a lot of critism as well for having a generic voice and lack diversity (( hey, he has the most distinct generic voice of them all. Sure, K1/Kira type of voices are dime a dozen, but Hoshi's is very recognizable. )), but that's mostly the voice director's fault for cashing into his 'moe' voice like how Rie's tsundere and Yukarin's moe voice. Some of the seiyuu's more obscure roles showcase their vocal talents far more effectively, but no one watches those anyway.
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