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Old 2008-08-31, 23:45   Link #6521
GuidoHunter_Toki
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I love how all the people who used to hate Suzaku are all jumping on the bandwagon now that he is working with Lelouch. Honestly was there any good reason to hate Suzaku in the first place(I'm sure I'll get some stupid reasons)?
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Old 2008-08-31, 23:48   Link #6522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
I love how all the people who used to hate Suzaku are all jumping on the bandwagon now that he is working with Lelouch. Honestly was there any good reason to hate Suzaku in the first place(I'm sure I'll get some stupid reasons)?
No. (words to fill character limitl
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Old 2008-08-31, 23:54   Link #6523
Major1138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
I love how all the people who used to hate Suzaku are all jumping on the bandwagon now that he is working with Lelouch. Honestly was there any good reason to hate Suzaku in the first place(I'm sure I'll get some stupid reasons)?
Well the cynical reason would be that he's not the protagonist, so by default, he's going to receive a certain amount of hate from the fans.

Personally, I think he's a great character, but his hypocrisy sort of made him a bit of a tool - he kept saying he wanted to change the system from within, yet what he really wanted to do was to go out in a blaze of glory to atone for messing things up by killing his father. That and the whole "work the system from within" meant being a collaborator with an occupying regime that treated his people like crap made him seem a bit too naive.

Although he seems to have come to the realization that while the means by which you achieve your goals matters, it's all academic if you can't actually get anything done. Lelouch had the opposite problem - he was willing to do almost anything to get what he wanted, although doing so had cost him almost everything.

It seems like they've both realized what they've being doing so far hasn't been working. My guess would be that they've settled on something in the middle - the best way to change Britannia (and the world) would be from the top. But they accept that they'll have to play hardball to get there - and stay there.
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Old 2008-08-31, 23:56   Link #6524
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People disliked Suzaku because he was always at odds with Lelouch, who was his best friend. It's was as if they were on different pages of the same book, which ended up fucking them over several times. Both characters have now come full circle. Lelouch is no longer persuing his own selfish interests and hiding behind a mask, and Suzaku is finally able to understand his friend and his motives.

Suzaku's choice makes sense, Lelouch no longer has a mask, Schneizel in the other hand probably has 10 masks on and a lot of shady objectives and stuff that Suzaku doesn't like.
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Old 2008-08-31, 23:57   Link #6525
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Originally Posted by Major1138 View Post
Well the cynical reason would be that he's not the protagonist, so by default, he's going to receive a certain amount of hate from the fans.

Personally, I think he's a great character, but his hypocrisy sort of made him a bit of a tool - he kept saying he wanted to change the system from within, yet what he really wanted to do was to go out in a blaze of glory to atone for messing things up by killing his father. That and the whole "work the system from within" meant being a collaborator with an occupying regime that treated his people like crap made him seem a bit too naive.

Although he seems to have come to the realization that while the means by which you achieve your goals matters, it's all academic if you can't actually get anything done. Lelouch had the opposite problem - he was willing to do almost anything to get what he wanted, although doing so had cost him almost everything.

It seems like they've both realized what they've being doing so far hasn't been working. My guess would be that they've settled on something in the middle - the best way to change Britannia (and the world) would be from the top. But they accept that they'll have to play hardball to get there - and stay there.
Personally Lelouch I found more deserving of hatred then many others especially Suzaku. Buit as you said with him being the main character and all; oh and with plenty of narrowminded fans Lelouch is for the most part constantly praised and worshipped.
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Old 2008-08-31, 23:57   Link #6526
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-I have honestly no idea how to react to Suzaku anymore. On the one hand its nice that he moved on and forgave Lelouch but on the other I still cannot fully bring myself to like what he's done. This could have all been avoided way back in episode 5 of the 1st season if he had trusted Lelouch enough, but oh well, we live and burn...
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Old 2008-09-01, 00:00   Link #6527
GuidoHunter_Toki
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Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-I have honestly no idea how to react to Suzaku anymore. On the one hand its nice that he moved on and forgave Lelouch but on the other I still cannot fully bring myself to like what he's done. This could have all been avoided way back in episode 5 of the 1st season if he had trusted Lelouch enough, but oh well, we live and burn...
Now why couldn't have Lelouch trusted Suzaku's methods. It goes both ways so don't act like Lelouch's method was the absolute right path to take.
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Old 2008-09-01, 00:03   Link #6528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
Personally Lelouch I found more deserving of hatred then many others especially Suzaku. Buit as you said with him being the main character and all; oh and with plenty of narrowminded fans Lelouch is for the most part constantly praised and worshipped.
Also becuase of the fact that people know it's an animated show, not real life. I never hated Suzaku, but I always preferred Lelouch more becuase his ideals brought the drama, and entertainment.

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Now why couldn't have Lelouch trusted Suzaku's methods. It goes both ways so don't act like Lelouch's method was the absolute right path to take.
You kinda contradicted yourself here, it goes both ways.

They've now agreed to a method somewhere in the middle, which is how it should've been done in the first place.
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Old 2008-09-01, 00:11   Link #6529
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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
Now why couldn't have Lelouch trusted Suzaku's methods. It goes both ways so don't act like Lelouch's method was the absolute right path to take.
-Oh I don't know. Maybe because Lelouch saved his life openly and without hesitation, because he took as many opportunities as possible to avoid bringing him into the fray or to get him out of it, because unlike Suzaku himself (and many of his superiors) he cared about wheter he lived or died? But yeah, Lelouch's way isn't an absolute right one but hey its what he had to work with. BTW, I am not trying to instigate an argument here of who's right or wrong since those are ambiguous terms in this series...
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Old 2008-09-01, 00:12   Link #6530
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I now understand the real issue with suzaku. He suffers from Chronic Backstabbing Disorder.
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Old 2008-09-01, 00:14   Link #6531
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^And Lelouch used the Japanese as pawns, they're basically on equal footing.
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Old 2008-09-01, 00:16   Link #6532
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The reason people dislike Suzaku because he was always self-conflicting himself. He struggles to understand where his resolve really lies. He's always misled himself to the wrong path by choosing to side with those with direct influence rather then make his own path.

He accepted Japan being Area 11.

He accepted to "go along" with the new rulers.

This is opposite of Lelouch's beliefs where Lelu believes that he "can" make miracles if he doesn't give into the realities forced upon by others, noted in episode 21.

Suzaku and Lelouch probably made up with each other since he did kill Nunnally although Lelouch may have contributed to this but the only way to settle all the contriving issues is to work together and fix this world.
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Old 2008-09-01, 00:17   Link #6533
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^And Lelouch used the Japanese as pawns, they're basically on equal footing.
-What leader doesn't use his soldiers and followers as pawns for his/her success?
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Old 2008-09-01, 00:19   Link #6534
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The JLF wasn't his soldiers, they were an independent rebel group(This is back in season 1). He himself said that freeing the Japanese was simply a side effect of having a peaceful world for Nunnally, hence, using the Japanese as pawns.

Good point, though.
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Old 2008-09-01, 00:21   Link #6535
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The JLF wasn't his soldiers, they were an independent rebel group(This is back in season 1). He himself said that freeing the Japanese was simply a side effect of having a peaceful world for Nunnally, hence, using the Japanese as pawns.

Good point, though.
-EDIT: Side-effects are normally what happen during victory in war. Nazi Germany's millitary expansion for instance brought about the side-effect of improving their countrymen's lives (at the cost of those they harmed).

-Edit #2: Fix'd mistake...
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Old 2008-09-01, 00:26   Link #6536
Dilla
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Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-Yes, but he was their leader right? And therefore they acted on his orders.
No, the JLF wasn't apart of the Black Knights, Lelouch planted a bomb on their ship himself then called it suicide when the bomb went off. Watch episode 13, season 1.

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Side-effect are normally what happen during victory in war. Nazi Germany's millitary expansion for instance brought about the side-effect of improving their countrymen's lives (at the cost of those they harmed).
Amd lelouch wasn't a military leader at that point, he was a rebel leader, rebel leaders should keep the people that believe in him close. Leaders with the intent to free a land don't bail on their comrades during wartime. Granted, we know why he did it, the reason why he was doing this in the first place, but the Japanese don't know.
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Old 2008-09-01, 00:29   Link #6537
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No, the JLF wasn't apart of the Black Knights, Lelouch planted a bomb on their ship then called it suicide when the bomb went off. Watch episode 13, season 1.
-Ooops, sorry, I thought you meant the faction Lelouch created with the Black Knights. My brain must be dead tired sorry .
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Old 2008-09-01, 00:31   Link #6538
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Let's see Bismarck vs Suzaku in Eps 22. Bismarck has geass, don't know what he's capable of.
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Old 2008-09-01, 00:41   Link #6539
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Amd lelouch wasn't a military leader at that point, he was a rebel leader, rebel leaders should keep the people that believe in him close. Leaders with the intent to free a land don't bail on their comrades during wartime. Granted, we know why he did it, the reason why he was doing this in the first place, but the Japanese don't know.
-This is one of the times where the anime ceases to parallel real life. What you speak is true, military or rebel leaders don't normally cease their actions at the drop of hat when their estranged wife/mother/daughter/sibling/etc. are taken hostage by enemy forces. But do recall that at the time Lelouch had little experience in dealing with that kind of pressure. Before that, all of his battles kept Nunnaly away but that obviously changed. Its one of the actions that earned him ire from his followers...
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Old 2008-09-01, 01:09   Link #6540
kaefer_zwei
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when suzaku met with charles and marianne, could he have just accepted their proposal for a better world ... or just go for quits and leave... things like this are so complicated the it really takes alot to make the right decission... why did he have to side with lelouch... suzaku doesnt know shit about whats going on...

All of this could have ended their and then... suzaku should have just stab lelouch to end it all... no more geass...
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