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Old 2008-10-15, 19:22   Link #7721
cors8
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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
Wow really? This makes me rage even more! Lelouch you prick. I was wondering why Nunally wasn't suffering from the same penalties when her name was restored.
Well, it's not like Lelouch wanted Euphemia to go on a massacre so he could kill her. He was going to go along with it.
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Old 2008-10-15, 23:00   Link #7722
Discerptor
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Originally Posted by stillmissing View Post
I haven't been following this conversation, but this caught my eye, so I figured I'd comment on it. This is frequently misunderstood, but it's really the anime's fault. Euphemia did not give up her right to the throne to procure the SAR. As her conversation with Lelouch indicated, it was the price so that he, as Zero, would be accepted as part of the SAR. The anime sadly doesn't really clarify past that point, and you just assume that Lelouch and Euphemia both understand the implications of what they are talking about.

In the novels though, it's expanded upon. Basically, any member of the royal family can give up their birthright in return for a universal pardon, basically a get out of jail free card. And that's what Euphemia traded her birthright for. A pardon for Zero for his crimes against Britannia, even his murder of Clovis. This is why Lelouch was so touched by the gesture, especially when she added that she did it for Nunnally's sake, so that the two of them wouldn't be seperated.

Of course, this was never honored as it was a secret that would be announced in a few days, and then well... the incident that happened shortly after put an end to that deal.

This is also why Cornelia was so furious with Euphemia. She didn't approve of the SAR, but it was pardoning their brother's murderer that really set her off.
Now Lelouch's reaction makes a bit more pragmatic sense, since without the pardon he would have been unable to actually help the Special Zone, thus reducing its chances of running in a way that he thought would work. But with the pardon, Zero would be able to openly help the Special Zone with its policies and make sure it stayed on the right track. Before, it seemed more like, "RAAAR HOW DARE YOU TAKE MY BLACK KNIGHTS oh nvm its all good if u give up being princess 4 me lol"

Not that such a line of thinking is inconceivable for Lelouch given some of his other moments, but at least now it's easier to follow some logical thought path in Lelouch's head.
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Old 2008-10-19, 07:38   Link #7723
Train Samurai
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Originally Posted by cors8 View Post
Well, it's not like Lelouch wanted Euphemia to go on a massacre so he could kill her. He was going to go along with it.
Well he managed to make a tragedy anyway you put it regardless
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Old 2008-10-21, 04:43   Link #7724
ZeroSama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillmissing View Post
I haven't been following this conversation, but this caught my eye, so I figured I'd comment on it. This is frequently misunderstood, but it's really the anime's fault. Euphemia did not give up her right to the throne to procure the SAR. As her conversation with Lelouch indicated, it was the price so that he, as Zero, would be accepted as part of the SAR. The anime sadly doesn't really clarify past that point, and you just assume that Lelouch and Euphemia both understand the implications of what they are talking about.

In the novels though, it's expanded upon. Basically, any member of the royal family can give up their birthright in return for a universal pardon, basically a get out of jail free card. And that's what Euphemia traded her birthright for. A pardon for Zero for his crimes against Britannia, even his murder of Clovis. This is why Lelouch was so touched by the gesture, especially when she added that she did it for Nunnally's sake, so that the two of them wouldn't be seperated.

Of course, this was never honored as it was a secret that would be announced in a few days, and then well... the incident that happened shortly after put an end to that deal.

This is also why Cornelia was so furious with Euphemia. She didn't approve of the SAR, but it was pardoning their brother's murderer that really set her off.
Had Zeroes pardon taken effect before he went to the SAZ?

If so and obviously it must've since they weren't all jumping over his ass as soon as he made his appearence, i find it rather odd that he was still wanted for the murder of Clovis and all the other crap he pulled before the pardon(as shown on the poster on the train in EP7 of R2).

I can understand all the stuff he did after being pardoned on the poster though, just not that.

Does that men in the end that Britannia just ended up revoking his pardon? And if so even if the SAZ was a sucess what's to stop them do so at a later date.

And you do know that the LN's aren't exactly canon right? Official yes. But not canon.
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Old 2008-10-21, 07:45   Link #7725
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Originally Posted by ZeroSama View Post
Had Zeroes pardon taken effect before he went to the SAZ?

If so and obviously it must've since they weren't all jumping over his ass as soon as he made his appearence, i find it rather odd that he was still wanted for the murder of Clovis and all the other crap he pulled before the pardon(as shown on the poster on the train in EP7 of R2).

I can understand all the stuff he did after being pardoned on the poster though, just not that.

Does that men in the end that Britannia just ended up revoking his pardon? And if so even if the SAZ was a sucess what's to stop them do so at a later date.

And you do know that the LN's aren't exactly canon right? Official yes. But not canon.
After it would sort of be null in void when you killed the very person that gave you the pardon in the first place
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Old 2008-10-21, 09:19   Link #7726
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Originally Posted by Train Samurai View Post
After it would sort of be null in void when you killed the very person that gave you the pardon in the first place
Why? Barring everyone in the know Britannia executed Euphie, its not listed as one of his crimes.

If his pardon was made public/official before the SAZ incident they would've needed a legitimate reason too anull it and they can't pin her death on him without dropping themselves in a pos.
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Old 2008-10-21, 14:50   Link #7727
stillmissing
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Originally Posted by ZeroSama View Post
Had Zeroes pardon taken effect before he went to the SAZ? And you do know that the LN's aren't exactly canon right? Official yes. But not canon.
I actually already covered this in the post when I wrote "Of course, this was never honored as it was a secret that would be announced in a few days, and then well... the incident that happened shortly after put an end to that deal."

His pardon was tied to the announcement of her abandonment of her birthright. As it would have been made in a few days after the SAR incident, it never was. Hence Zero never received an official pardon obviously, and all his crimes still stood.

As for the state of the novels, yes I'm aware, but it's largely irrelevant in this case. The concept was introduced in the anime, but the anime failed to expand upon exactly how the political mechanism behind the deal actually would allow Zero to be part of the SAR officially and how Euphemia giving up her birthright made that possible. All the novel did there is provide additional information to explain that, and it didn't contradict the anime in any way.

Last edited by stillmissing; 2008-10-21 at 19:17.
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Old 2008-10-24, 22:36   Link #7728
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So what did Suzaku lose in the final battle or what?
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Old 2008-10-24, 22:41   Link #7729
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Originally Posted by Iluvearth View Post
So what did Suzaku lose in the final battle or what?
That depends on your definition of "lose." He certainly lost in the sense that he got his ride blown up.
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Old 2008-10-25, 04:44   Link #7730
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
That depends on your definition of "lose." He certainly lost in the sense that he got his ride blown up.
Yeah, otherwise, he won by a landslide when he disabled Kallen's Guren and her physically as well, while being able to fake his own death.
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Old 2008-10-25, 08:41   Link #7731
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Suzaku has really gained my respect in season 2 tbh.
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Old 2008-10-25, 10:23   Link #7732
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Originally Posted by Noe View Post
Suzaku has really gained my respect in season 2 tbh.
Suzaku has pretty much been a jerk for most of the time in the series. I like him when he joined force with Lelouch but I cannot forget his past actions btw "I want to change Brittannia from the inside" is SO stupid
u need to be the one in charge of Brittannia to change it.
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Old 2008-10-25, 10:41   Link #7733
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
Yeah, otherwise, he won by a landslide when he disabled Kallen's Guren and her physically as well, while being able to fake his own death.
He lucked out in that regard. Logically he should have frozen to death at such high altitudes.
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Old 2008-10-25, 10:44   Link #7734
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero View Post
Suzaku has pretty much been a jerk for most of the time in the series. I like him when he joined force with Lelouch but I cannot forget his past actions btw "I want to change Brittannia from the inside" is SO stupid
u need to be the one in charge of Brittannia to change it.
That's what made me dislike him. Suzaku was a horrible character once he joined up with Lelouch. It's very probable that the writers just inserted that because they won't incur the wrath of Lulu-fans.
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Old 2008-10-25, 10:54   Link #7735
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
That's what made me dislike him. Suzaku was a horrible character once he joined up with Lelouch. It's very probable that the writers just inserted that because they won't incur the wrath of Lulu-fans.
The only reason people like him is because of joining force with Lelouch and becoming Knight Of Zero. Before that pretty much everyone hate him.
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Old 2008-10-25, 11:00   Link #7736
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
Yeah, otherwise, he won by a landslide when he disabled Kallen's Guren and her physically as well, while being able to fake his own death.
I can't tell you how glad I am to find the voice of reason back in this thread. Welcome back Nanaya! \o/
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Old 2008-10-25, 11:03   Link #7737
Nogitsune
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Huh.
I always liked Suzaku.
And he did change Britannia from the inside, in the end.
Sure, he was often idealistic and naive... but that's mostly due to his past and the fact that he couldn't forgive himself. Childhood trauma and all. *shrugs*
It's the same with Lelouch, only that he killed people instead.
I adore them both.
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Old 2008-10-25, 11:16   Link #7738
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Huh.
I always liked Suzaku.
And he did change Britannia from the inside, in the end.
Sure, he was often idealistic and naive... but that's mostly due to his past and the fact that he couldn't forgive himself. Childhood trauma and all. *shrugs*
It's the same with Lelouch, only that he killed people instead.
I adore them both.
You get cookies just for that. I never quite got how people could loathe one and worship the other when they're really not that different if you think about it.
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Old 2008-10-25, 11:19   Link #7739
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Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
You get cookies just for that. I never quite got how people could loathe one and worship the other when they're really not that different if you think about it.
*takes the cookies happily while nodding her head in agreement*
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Old 2008-10-26, 10:17   Link #7740
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
He lucked out in that regard. Logically he should have frozen to death at such high altitudes.


lol, dying at such high altitudes, why bring this up? its an anime for god sakes, not every little aspect about reality is going to be in an anime. somebody's is pissed off because Kallen got the short end of the stick in this fight.


Kallen should of died and passed away if she didnt received help while Suzaku survived a devastating death all on his own and would of lived when we count no interference. That is why alot of people believe Suzaku is the winner.

she didnt accomplished or prevented nothing in that fight while Suzaku accomplished what he needed to do to do Zero R.

if it had to go to hand to hand battle assuming Kallen was to escape her Guren , Kallen would be defeated easily by Suzaku. Kallen is only an ace with a mecha, in hand to hand, she is no match for Suzaku and would lose easily. The fight will go the same way as in the island fight except Kallen with her clothes on.
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