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Old 2008-11-14, 10:58   Link #7901
Willowhugger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
but all that talk about suzaku's beliefs only really cover season 1
from the start of season 2 he actively aids britannia in conquering more countries and inslaveing more people
and he does so with the aim of gainning more power to effect more change for "area 11" alone (the KoO can rule one area of his choosing)
Lelouch still sticks to his own idea of how to change the world but suzaku's way had changed considerbly
At that point, Suzaku has pretty much sold his soul to the Devil. Part of it has to do with the fact that he actually believes Britannia is evil by this point. It's just an evil that he intends to use to his own advantage. I suspect it might have to do with the fact that Charles doesn't give two licks about his daughter's death and that he realizes the Japanese will never ever, ever, ever forgive the Britainnians. So the idea of peacefully sliding them into the Brit system is totally shot to Hell forever.

To be fair, "S*** you, I've got mine." Is not exactly a bad philosophy when your world is totally shot to Hell.
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Old 2008-11-14, 11:07   Link #7902
bladeofdarkness
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keep in mind that the contrast in his actions has been there since day 1 (between heroic idealizem and down right evil)
in ep 2 the britannian army is butchering people in shinjiku
lelouch hooks up with ougi's group and leads them to victory (there by protecting the people that were being killed off moments ago by britannia
so the britannian forces take a beateing and lose much of its men and mecha's

suzaku goes in like a traditional mecha hero and single handedly defeates all the big bad terrorists all on his own (with his new cool mecha)
takes all of them out without killing any of them
he even attacks the almost kills the leader of the terrorists while doing it (he gets to run away in the end however)
and he also saves a woman who is falling to her death IN MID BATTLE
and leads to a great victory for britannia
very heroic
except for one thing ...

the "terrorists" were keeping the civilians from being butchered by the britannian army
now that suzaku beat them all the army can (and does) move right back in and finish the job (read: finish the massacre)
you'd think he'd rememeber about that part (what his army was doing all that time)
its only thanks to the "terroroist leader" that the full on massacre of every man woman and child in shinjiku is averted
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Old 2008-11-14, 11:27   Link #7903
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Uh...I thought that Clovis stopped the massacre by Lelouch's order to before it continued on? The most I saw of its continuation was the Brits about to slaughter Kallen, Ougi, Tamaki and the rest, not further civilian butchery.
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Old 2008-11-14, 11:40   Link #7904
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
Uh...I thought that Clovis stopped the massacre by Lelouch's order to before it continued on? The most I saw of its continuation was the Brits about to slaughter Kallen, Ougi, Tamaki and the rest, not further civilian butchery.
there were many civilians there
and that was the one part they showed on screen
after the that you see a scene with many people walking away (ougi's group included) in ep 3 in the first minute (before the scene with clovis)
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Old 2008-11-14, 13:01   Link #7905
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Yes, by that point, the Britt army had also been royally smacked down by Lelouch as well.
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Old 2008-11-14, 13:05   Link #7906
bladeofdarkness
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and suzaku's actions saved them
he turned what would have been a defeat into a great victory
too bad he did it for THE WRONG SIDE
the resistance were fighting to allow the civilans to get away from the battlefield (kallen and ougi say that its to insure that the only ones who are trapped are the memberes of the resistance)
lelouch's actions helped push the army away and prevent the massacre
and since suzaku's actions put an end to that
well...

his way of acting is very heroic (even lelouch comments on how strange it is to see him save people in mid battle)
but its for the wrong team (he is the hero of the villain team)
and he stays with it even after they pin him for killing clovis and ingnoring the victory that he gave them
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Old 2008-11-14, 13:07   Link #7907
Willowhugger
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and suzaku's actions saved them
he turned what would have been a defeat into a great victory
too bad he did it for THE WRONG SIDE
the resistance were fighting to allow the civilans to get away from the battlefield (kallen and ougi say that its to insure that the only ones who are trapped are the memberes of the resistance)
lelouch's actions helped push the army away and prevent the massacre
and since suzaku's actions put an end to that
well...
Yeah, though to be fair, its important to remember this is a crowning moment of stupidity for Suzaku not a moment of evil. He actually believed the Britannia propaganda about it being a gas leak.
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Old 2008-11-14, 13:08   Link #7908
bladeofdarkness
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he was acting very much like a hero should
but he did it for the wrong team
and by then he knew that there was no poison gas
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Old 2008-11-15, 18:25   Link #7909
Goldarmy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist
Thought I did. He didn't do it to hide the truth. He could just let her massacre endlessly and it wouldn't reveal what he did. He did it out of mercy.
Fair enough. Lelouche didn't expect anyone discovering Geass which can be seen from his arrogant reaction to Suzaku at 23's end. He did it out of shame. But all of this doesn't change the fact that it is a poor excuse.
Quote:
Suzaku joined the army because he felt guilty for killing his father, not because of any inability to stop the fighting. Hell, he outright put a stop to it by killing his father.
He joined the army from the guilt of killing his father and failing to stop deaths both. He tried to convince Genbu against an action that will kill Japanese people. It went very ugly and Japanese people still died. Of course while Suzaku actions caused deaths of Japanese, Genbu's method would have killed very much more but in Suzaku's ten year old mind he used wrong method and reached a horrible result.
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Kallen may not like him, but Suzaku at the very least wanted to try to change her mind. That went out the door quick.
And this disproves my point how? They don't have a strong bond to prevent them from killing each other.
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And stop trying to portray her as if they were on even ground. She couldn't fight back.
Your last point is meaningless since everyone prefers to destroy their enemies without being destroyed by them and Kallen with her Guren is no exception. They aren't chivalrous knights on a duel. They are soldiers on the opposing sides of a modern war. When you willingly pilot a war machine and kill a lot of people with it; you cannot expect some sort of mercy or fair play without waving a white flag with your hands in the air. I repeat again Kallen isn't some innocent bystander she chose to fight Brittania and she can't blame anyone if she is killed as an enemy. The same apllies to Suzaku too.
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Suzaku, and pretty much only Suzaku, is the reason why Zero's plans get messed up, because he's an irregular unit.
He doesn't deal well with outside factors be it Suzaku, Cornelia, Schneizel's airship or Schneizel himself. And there are a lot of variables throughout the series(superior Knightmares, float system, Charles Geass, V.V., Geass cult).
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Again, jumping to one's death is not something that can be faked.
It can be done by very very few people in anime, and Lelouche is on that list.
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Hence it's a much better way of going about it.
You don't understand. They weren't forced in a position to make a choice between damning Japan or damning another country.
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Despite the nonsensical nature of this, it would have been a better way to go about it. She wouldn't even remember betraying him.
Do you actually think that Kallen will feel better about being Geassed to betray Zero?
Quote:
And the one using the bat is doing the same, one is still worse.
The point is neither's actions are good. The general way Lelouch used Geass was as reprehensible as Suzaku's Refrain action. Lets face it Lelouch had a giant's strength, and he used it like a giant.
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And slavery is better?
He wanted Lelouch find a way that will bring peace and happiness to both Brittanians and Japanese. Total war won't bring that.
Quote:
Suzaku got all put-off because Lelouch went ahead and did it after their meeting went south.
So Suzaku should have been happy that Zero has gone all out war?
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He was going to tear it down. He saw it for what it was, though, even before it started up.
It was a threat only to Lelouch's private crusade; by accepting Euphemia's offer Lelouch confirmed this.
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It wouldn't have been copied in other areas, because it would go against Charles' policies of discrimination.
Charles policy is this "If you are weak you deserve nothing, be you Brittanian or not". And Charles doesn't give a damn unless it disrupts Instrumentality.
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Hell, the only reason he didn't put a stop to it is because he outright knew Lelouch would ruin it.
He didn't put a stop to it because it didn't hamper his plans.
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Not once but twice, by two different people no less, he is outright called a man who will betray anyone to get a leg up.
Oh come on. Kanon and Bismarck were talking about the actions of post-FREIJA Suzaku.
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Reform is not a one-man job. Reform is something many people fight for. This is something Suzaku doesn't realize.
It wasn't his gain because he did nothing to make it happen. it was Euphie's idea inspired by Lelouch and Nunnally.
Morbofist can you see how you contradict yourself or does your bias blind you that much?
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Lelouch was using Japan's liberation as a stepping stone to further his plans, which means it is not a side-effect but an expected outcome.
You didn't actually disagree with him. It doesn't counter his assertion that this is just a welcome side effect.
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Suzaku had no plan whatsoever.
No he can make plans. But he doesn't have Lelouch's mental skills, charisma or his magical mind control power so his plans stay on a simple stage.
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Suzaku needed to get thoroughly slapped in the face with how pointless his methods were
It wasn't his methods that are problem, the problem he isn't capable to do much alone by himself. And while he was slapped in the face; he wasn't slapped about his methods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vakir
If Suzaku joined Lelouch, there'd be no story.
Code Geass isn't about Suzaku and Lelouch's battle of wits. It is about Lelouch's rise to power, his corruption and eventual destruction by power.
Quote:
Suzaku's are more conducive to changing Britannia from the outside...
Suzaku is conducive to pilot a Knightmare well nothing more; be he on the rebel side or Brittanian side
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If Lelouch decided to use Geass intelligently to control key people in the government rather than waste it on gathering information about his mother, he'd fix the infrastructure rather quickly.
His decision to change system won't neceessarily negate his quest for revenge and actually most of his times in series were spent on building up his army not on information of mother. And changing the system isn't something easily done since a lot of people are part of it.
Quote:
If Suzaku decided to run around in the Lancelot blowing the collective red-shirt ensign army up he'd cause way more change than he would running around as an Honorary Soldier with a death wish.
Lots of thing wrong with this statement. Suzaku receieved Lancelot from Lloyd as Kallen receieved Guren from Lelouch. The only change Suzaku could bring is the same Kallen would have brought without Lelouch. Kill some Brittanians, make Brittanians retaliate and kill alot of Japanese and finally got herself/himself killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willowhugger
Yeah, unfortunately, that again boils down to the viewpoint that it accepts annexation as a given.
Japan has been occupied for a decade. Brittania isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Quote:
Suzaku's doing so strikes many as treasonous, even if it is the more "realistic" viewpoint.
Part of it is the romanticization of the rebellion. While it feels nice to regard a rebellion as a clean case of good vs. evil; a rebel/guerilla war is simply dirty and horrible by design. And horribleness is the whole point; making the invader so sick and tired of you, so disgusted with what you do to him, and what he has to do to you, that he simply leaves. Things go to black and gray side of moral spectrum in these wars but not everyone gets this.
Quote:
Part of it has to do with the fact that he actually believes Britannia is evil by this point.
No the whole of it had to do with the facts that all of his work has turned to ash, the girl he loved has been brainwashed into becoming a murderer then shot, and his best friend turned out to be a heartless monster responsible for previous events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness
Lelouch still sticks to his own idea of how to change the world but suzaku's way had changed considerbly
Is that really suprising considering what happened at the end of season 1?
Quote:
the "terrorists" were keeping the civilians from being butchered by the britannian army
It was solely terrorists fault to bring army upon civilians by stealing a chemical weapon in the first place(of course it wasn't chemical weapon, it was something much worse).
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Old 2008-11-15, 19:01   Link #7910
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I'm honestly tired of debating this, as well as the endless parade of one-line quoting. You're not going to convince me different and the reverse applies. I'll cover a few points, though.

Kallen being Geassed into betraying Lelouch would leave her pissed off but fine, at which point she would channel her rage into killing Suzaku. Being refrained, on the other hand, would leave Kallen like her mother over a decent period of time, though she'd recover sooner or later. Plus, it would have bit Suzaku in the ass when Nunnally found out. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't even work like Suzaku describes it. People under the influence of Refrain don't even respond to outside stimuli, much less dumb down for free questioning. In short, it was quite simply a dumb-ass move in many ways. It's far more violent than Geass, has terrible side effects, and doesn't even work like he thinks it does. You can preach the loss of free will all you like, but the fact remains that it's a harmful hallucinogen compared to eye-contact hypnosis.

Kanon and Schneizel may have been talking about post-FLEIJA Suzaku, but that doesn't matter. Suzaku proved himself through his past actions to act exactly like this. Bismarck makes that abundantly clear because he already knew Suzaku couldn't be trusted.

The part about reform isn't contradictory. Euphy's reform was an effort started by her and approved by others. Suzaku did nothing other than stand there. And it wasn't even considered reform, just a patch to stifle the rebels. As for Suzaku's efforts in general, no, he does not even have simple plans at the beginning. He just expects things to happen. Only when he loses Euphy does he actually work out an idea.
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Old 2008-11-15, 19:28   Link #7911
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Suzuku is reasonable, personally. His convictions are totally different from lulu's but essentially the same. It 's just sad that S and L in the contrast way.
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Old 2008-11-15, 19:31   Link #7912
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Finally. An opening. So, as we were saying some time ago, Suzaku and Lelouch are interesting characters especially because neither is completely right or wrong. It was a nice change from the classic good guy/bad guy manichaean scenarii, and their relationship is what made me love the series so much. I was waiting for them to team up in the end and I'm glad they did (even if... yeah ;_; ).

Poor boys ;_;
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Old 2008-11-15, 19:41   Link #7913
bladeofdarkness
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actually i didnt like that they joined forces at all
its not that i didnt like the idea of them working together (ep 20 of season 1 is still one of my faves)
its the WHEN of it
the two of them joining forces in ep 17 would have been awesome
joining up in ep 21 was out of nowhere

after lelouch saw (what he beileved to be) suzaku betraying him, and then saw him kill nunnaly (in ep 18)
i dont see a logical reason why he would choose to work with him at that point (he wanted to KILL HIM even before he blew nunnaly up)

and after suzaku finally had a mental breakdown (in ep 19) and was ready to do what ever it took to gain his wish (be KoO) it makes no sense for him to switch sides to lulu's side at that point
he had already made sure that he would be shnizel's KoO (in exchange for killing the emp, which happened)
he could have even gotten a nice raise by handing shnizel the one person who posed the biggest threat to him (or just his head, if he was in a hurry)
he finally had what he spent his whole life trying to gain (power to change the system from the inside)
why would he choose that moment to throw it all away and join forces with the guy who murdered his girlfriend and who's fault it was that suzaku killed millions of people
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Old 2008-11-15, 19:44   Link #7914
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
why would he choose that moment to throw it all away and join forces with the guy who murdered his girlfriend and who's fault it was that suzaku killed millions of people
This is where the word "plothole" makes its appearance. That or Taniguchi was really a fan of Dark Knight's ending.
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Old 2008-11-15, 19:45   Link #7915
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Hum yeah, it made sense actually. Because they had a month to actually talk to each other without anyone interrupting and explain themselves. They realized that they were both being bitchy over misunderstandings and that staying ennemies wouldn't get them anywhere. So they joined forces~~
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Old 2008-11-15, 19:47   Link #7916
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Hum yeah, it made sense actually. Because they had a month to actually talk to each other without anyone interrupting and explain themselves. They realized that they were both being bitchy over misunderstandings and that staying ennemies wouldn't get them anywhere. So they joined forces~~
And that's why they stated that there was a 1 month gap. To avoid the kind of comment that it was out of nowhere. They had time to talk, this is just not shown on screen.
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Old 2008-11-15, 19:48   Link #7917
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Hum yeah, it made sense actually. Because they had a month to actually talk to each other without anyone interrupting and explain themselves. They realized that they were both being bitchy over misunderstandings and that staying ennemies wouldn't get them anywhere. So they joined forces~~
Considering that a large portion of that month would have been arranging to take over as they did, and the fact that their last scene is Suzaku preparing to kill Lelouch, talking alone doesn't really cover it.
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Old 2008-11-15, 19:48   Link #7918
bladeofdarkness
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why would suzaku allow for such a talk in the first place
they had one in ep 17 (before suzkua deceided that idealizem is for kids)
never mind that the guy who actually joined lelouch was not suzaku in anyway but in name
he was willing to stand around while lelouch used his geass to create an army of mind controled slaves (he even killed those who opposed him)
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Old 2008-11-15, 19:50   Link #7919
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The fact that really left me "whut?" was that Suzu really had the flying guts to go through with the killing. I mean, do not get me wrong, i love Suzaku and Lulu equally but let's admit it, Suzaku was kinda a pansy most of times, especially when it came to killing.
Oh well.
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Old 2008-11-15, 19:50   Link #7920
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Considering that a large portion of that month would have been arranging to take over as they did, and the fact that their last scene is Suzaku preparing to kill Lelouch, talking alone doesn't really cover it.
Considering that their main reasons for wanting to kill each other were "YOU KILLED MY GIRL" and "YOU KILLED MY SIS", confessing that both deaths weren't intended probably helped a whole lot.
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