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Old 2008-04-13, 10:29   Link #61
Nanaya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I still find it interesting that you can, on one hand, still believe Suzaku want Japan to be free one day, yet on the other hand have problem seeing the contradiction in assisting the invasion of another nation.

If Suzaku want to help change Britannia from the inside, helping Britannia invading other free nations is the completely opposite of what you say he is doing. You can't try to stop a crime while committing the same crimes yourself on someone else. If you say Suzaku is trying to change Britannia's colonist ways, then he is actually walking further away from his goal than when he first started.
Can't you see it? Suzaku has NO problem with Britannia's colonizing ways. He has already accepted that fact.

What he has a problem with is the discrimination that comes along with it. THAT is what he wishes to change. If Britannia becomes a good empire in the end, what's the problem with it ruling the world?

And because of Suzaku's luck in meeting good natured and/or practical people IN POWER, he has a chance of achieving it.

In case you didn't understand, Lelouch is also going to embark on such an operation if he succeeds in destroying Britannia. He brazenly calls himself "the man who will rule the world" after all.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:32   Link #62
evil|plushie
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I think the biggest mistake people make with Suzaku is that they try to seperate what he says from what he does. Which is farcical in my pov, since he's the type who claimed that violence was wrong, and that you should do things the right way. Was invading Europe the right way then? You can say it's his job, but unfortunately, just because it's his job doesn't mean he has to do it. He could always quit, but then he'd never reach his dream of stopping all violence through the use of violence. Of course, it's questionable whether he would have in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
Suzaku is working for a force he thinks cannot be beaten, something he admitted to Toudou himself in their duel. If that is the case, then lessening the violence by beating the ones who are "uselessly wasting" their lives and getting innocent Elevens involved in their actions is a sacrifice worth doing.

Because in Suzaku's mind, Britannia will still defeat the rebels in the end (ALL of the Black Knights thought this way even during episode 18 to 20) and hence, the perpetrated violence is just plain "useless" instead of actually helpful.

THAT is Suzaku's justice. And all justice is relative so it would be better not to start any namecalling about what and what is not justice.
I'm sorry, but saying that Britainnians method of enforcement is too brutal to be called Justice is not namecalling. What Suzaku is doing is not so much justice as it is rationalization, if you can't beat them, join them.


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Yeah, but discrimination CAN fade away. Through acceptance and through a good amount of luck. Besides, for every racist Britannian he's ever met, he also knows that there are good people in that country and at the very least, people who don't care at all and are just practical people.
Discrimination can fade away, but in the current Britainnian setting, is that going to happen any time soon? Or is that even more likely than the persistent violence fading away anytime soon? The problem is that the discrimination seems to be constantly reinforcing itself within britainnian society. Especially with the notion of the Emperors that might = right. Suzaku might have some respect among some of the Britainnian army (Knights of Rounds and Cornelias knights) but it has yet to be seen whether that translates into equal rights or treatment for the other japanese or whether they just view Suzaku as an extremely talented monkey. After all, even if you respect one talented monkey, it doesn't mean you're going to suddenly respect or give rights to the rest of them.

edit: Btw, if he wants to stop the discrimination, stop invading other countries. People aren't going to be too happy when they get conquered and with the way the Britainnian empire thinks, the very fact the other country lost already means it's inferior.

I mean , it's also possible that one day the Emperor will die peacefully and then the next heir to the throne will suddenly decide to free all the colonies and live in peace forever. But is that likely? I find that arguing that things could happen without much basis for it kinda useless.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:41   Link #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I still find it interesting that you can, on one hand, still believe Suzaku want Japan to be free one day, yet on the other hand have problem seeing the contradiction in assisting the invasion of another nation.

If Suzaku want to help change Britannia from the inside, helping Britannia invading other free nations is the completely opposite of what you say he is doing. You can't try to stop a crime while committing the same crimes yourself on someone else. If you say Suzaku is trying to change Britannia's colonist ways, then he is actually walking further away from his goal than when he first started.
well if Suzaku doesn't help Britannia invading nations, he can't be a Knight of the Round. If he isn't a Knight of the Round, how could he have the chance to change the world from within? Both Suzaku's and Lelouch's hands are stained with blood: THIS IS THE PRICE TO PAY. The old Suzaku didn't want to kill anyone because of the guilt of having murdered his father: he was a hypocrite. The real Suzaku will do anything to obtain what he wants.

Last edited by Airi; 2008-04-13 at 10:53.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:42   Link #64
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
I think the biggest mistake people make with Suzaku is that they try to seperate what he says from what he does. Which is farcical in my pov, since he's the type who claimed that violence was wrong, and that you should do things the right way. Was invading Europe the right way then? You can say it's his job, but unfortunately, just because it's his job doesn't mean he has to do it. He could always quit, but then he'd never reach his dream of stopping all violence through the use of violence. Of course, it's questionable whether he would have in the first place.
...

Suzaku said it to Kallen in the festival that he does things the way he does them. Since he MET Euphemia and especially after the "confession" Suzaku does not stand by his words that much anymore. His actions and of course his words won't mesh well anymore.

The more you try to make those two things come together, the more you'll only get a mix of past+present+future that will literally MAKE NO SENSE.

And that is the mistake I was talking about. Suzaku is literally changing in front of us that's why you can't keep doing that with him.


Quote:
I'm sorry, but saying that Britainnians method of enforcement is too brutal to be called Justice is not namecalling. What Suzaku is doing is not so much justice as it is rationalization, if you can't beat them, join them.
I never called Britannian enforcement laws as justice. What I called justice was what you correctly termed as rationalization. Which is what JUSTICE is to some people. It's a fairly relative term.


Quote:
Discrimination can fade away, but in the current Britainnian setting, is that going to happen any time soon? Or is that even more likely than the persistent violence fading away anytime soon? The problem is that the discrimination seems to be constantly reinforcing itself within britainnian society. Especially with the notion of the Emperors that might = right. Suzaku might have some respect among some of the Britainnian army (Knights of Rounds and Cornelias knights) but it has yet to be seen whether that translates into equal rights or treatment for the other japanese or whether they just view Suzaku as an extremely talented monkey. After all, even if you respect one talented monkey, it doesn't mean you're going to suddenly respect or give rights to the rest of them.
Soon? Why soon? Suzaku is looking towards the future and the change that could occur several decades now.

Suzaku's methods are slow. They have the possibility of working, but it is slow.

Quote:
edit: Btw, if he wants to stop the discrimination, stop invading other countries. People aren't going to be too happy when they get conquered and with the way the Britainnian empire thinks, the very fact the other country lost already means it's inferior.
He can't stop what is already in motion. He doesn't have enough power yet. YET.

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I mean , it's also possible that one day the Emperor will die peacefully and then the next heir to the throne will suddenly decide to free all the colonies and live in peace forever. But is that likely? I find that arguing that things could happen without much basis for it kinda useless.
If Schneizel wins, the likelihood of the Empire's colonies becoming better treated is a great possibility. Of course, he won't dismantle the Empire. What idiot emperor does that? Better make every colonized country into an actual part of the empire than a mere colony.

Schneizel IS Lelouch x 2 - geass(?).
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:52   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
He can't stop what is already in motion. He doesn't have enough power yet. YET.
It is in motion. But Suzaku is pushing it with all his might, helping it along. Hence he is actually going BACKWARDS in his goals.

Quite simply, for each day he keep doing what he does now, the harder it would be to undo the damage he help cause. And by constantly going backwards, he will never reach his goal. It doesn't matter how much time he spend on it, Britannia will not change because he is helping Britannia in making it stronger and harder to change.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:56   Link #66
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in short, he will finally realise that rather then being able to change the mechanics of the Empire from within, the system has grind and mould him to conform to the system instead.

Just like Dark Vader, noble intent twisted to become another (exceptional) cog in the machine.

well done Suzuku, hated when you were waffing about, but now you on the dark side, you got kudos.

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Old 2008-04-13, 10:56   Link #67
Nanaya
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
It is in motion. But Suzaku is pushing it with all his might, helping it along. Hence he is actually going BACKWARDS in his goals.

Quite simply, for each day he keep doing what he does now, the harder it would be to undo the damage he help cause. And by constantly going backwards, he will never reach his goal. It doesn't matter how much time he spend on it, Britannia will not change because he is helping Britannia in making it stronger and harder to change.
And what is he supposed to do? FAIL his missions as Knight of Rounds? He logically HAS to do it and do it WELL or risk getting kicked out.

When he has amassed the power, then he can change it through his will.

Also, a stronger Britannia is not a harder to change Britannia. All it takes is a change in people's perceptions and the backing of Imperial power. He knows this is possible precisely because he knows people in Britannia like Cecile, Lloyd, and most importantly, Schneizel, Cornelia, AND Euphemia.

Remember what Cornelia told Euphemia in the Knighting episode, the Emperor has such power. All Suzaku needs is to obtain such favor and the future can become his.
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Old 2008-04-13, 11:01   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
And what is he supposed to do? FAIL his missions as Knight of Rounds? He logically HAS to do it and do it WELL or risk getting kicked out.

When he has amassed the power, then he can change it through his will.

Also, a stronger Britannia is not a harder to change Britannia. All it takes is a change in people's perceptions and the backing of Imperial power. He knows this is possible precisely because he knows people in Britannia like Cecile, Lloyd, and most importantly, Schneizel, Cornelia, AND Euphemia.

Remember what Cornelia told Euphemia in the Knighting episode, the Emperor has such power. All Suzaku needs is to obtain such favor and the future can become his.
So it is okay to invade Paris and Moscow as long as he gives it back later?

In case you haven't noticed, you are claiming Suzaku should treat Europeans the way Britannians treat the Japanese; means to get power. The fact that he is killing a LOT of innocent people in the process appear to be okay to you as long as it is what the Emperor wants...

I thought you claim Suzaku tried to change Britannia from the inside in order to prevent bloodshed? Or does European blood not count as blood?
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Old 2008-04-13, 11:03   Link #69
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
...

Suzaku said it to Kallen in the festival that he does things the way he does them. Since he MET Euphemia and especially after the "confession" Suzaku does not stand by his words that much anymore. His actions and of course his words won't mesh well anymore.

The more you try to make those two things come together, the more you'll only get a mix of past+present+future that will literally MAKE NO SENSE.

And that is the mistake I was talking about. Suzaku is literally changing in front of us that's why you can't keep doing that with him.
It still remains to be seen whether Suzaku has truly changed that much. What I said referred to what I thought of Suzaku's char as of the end of S1 but in S2, he truly hasn't shown up much at all and his few appearances haven't been that significant.


Quote:
Soon? Why soon? Suzaku is looking towards the future and the change that could occur several decades now.

Suzaku's methods are slow. They have the possibility of working, but it is slow.
A change that may also not work. Of course, there's also the no. of lifes lost while that idealised change is taking place.


Quote:
He can't stop what is already in motion. He doesn't have enough power yet. YET.
I think this is the crux of the matter. Suzaku may never have enough power and he's already doing things that are against the very ideals he espoused. Even if you say that he wants to end the discrimination, starting up a new wave of discrimination in the newly conquered country seems to be going against his own beliefs again.

Quote:
If Schneizel wins, the likelihood of the Empire's colonies becoming better treated is a great possibility. Of course, he won't dismantle the Empire. What idiot emperor does that? Better make every colonized country into an actual part of the empire than a mere colony.

Schneizel IS Lelouch x 2 - geass(?).
Um, there's no proof that Schneizel really is that nice of a person.
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Old 2008-04-13, 11:04   Link #70
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
So it is okay to invade Paris and Moscow as long as he gives it back later?

In case you haven't noticed, you are claiming Suzaku should treat Europeans the way Britannians treat the Japanese; means to get power. The fact that he is killing a LOT of innocent people in the process appear to be okay to you as long as it is what the Emperor wants...
Give it back? What do you mean GIVE IT BACK? If Europe becomes part of a "good and changed" Britannia, no need to give it back.

I haven't even seen Suzaku kill a lot of innocent people yet. If anyone's had innocents get killed for the sake of obtaining his goal, it's LELOUCH that does that.

Is it bad that Suzaku is now and ONLY NOW willing to use people to achieve his goals while it's still okay for Lelouch to do so?

Don't use that argument against Suzaku if you're going to let Lelouch of the hook for the same thing.
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Old 2008-04-13, 11:06   Link #71
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Give it back? What do you mean GIVE IT BACK? If Europe becomes part of a "good and changed" Britannia, no need to give it back.

I haven't even seen Suzaku kill a lot of innocent people yet. If anyone's had innocents get killed for the sake of obtaining his goal, it's LELOUCH that does that.

Is it bad that Suzaku is now and ONLY NOW willing to use people to achieve his goals while it's still okay for Lelouch to do so?

Don't use that argument against Suzaku if you're going to let Lelouch of the hook for the same thing.
What do you mean, NOT killing innocent people?

Suzaku had been spending the last year fighting in the European Front. The Europeans are fighting for their right to be free, and Suzaku is killing them. How is that NOT innocent blood spilt?
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Old 2008-04-13, 11:10   Link #72
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
It still remains to be seen whether Suzaku has truly changed that much. What I said referred to what I thought of Suzaku's char as of the end of S1 but in S2, he truly hasn't shown up much at all and his few appearances haven't been that significant.
Suzaku already changed drastically from episode 23-25 alone. And he'll probably change some more.

Quote:
A change that may also not work. Of course, there's also the no. of lifes lost while that idealised change is taking place.
The lives lost while that idealised change takes place is no different from the lives lost in rebellion. But Suzaku's path may indeed cut the cycle of violence completely if he succeeds.

Quote:
I think this is the crux of the matter. Suzaku may never have enough power and he's already doing things that are against the very ideals he espoused. Even if you say that he wants to end the discrimination, starting up a new wave of discrimination in the newly conquered country seems to be going against his own beliefs again.
Never have enough power? Suzaku has HOPE. That is one of his trademark traits, following trust and now, selfishness.

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Um, there's no proof that Schneizel really is that nice of a person.
And there's no proof that he's actually bad. What Schneizel is is a very practical man who would let the Numbers actually become a part of the Empire and from his words, "breathe new life into it".
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Old 2008-04-13, 11:13   Link #73
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
What do you mean, NOT killing innocent people?

Suzaku had been spending the last year fighting in the European Front. The Europeans are fighting for their right to be free, and Suzaku is killing them. How is that NOT innocent blood spilt?
They are fighting him. That's not innocent. That's war. Besides, have you forgotten that if it weren't for the maneuvers Charles pulled on both the EEU and the Chinese Federation, the EEU itself would have invaded Japan for Sakuradite along with the Chinese.

All three power blocs are challenging each other for domination.
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Old 2008-04-13, 11:18   Link #74
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They are fighting him. That's not innocent. That's war. Besides, have you forgotten that if it weren't for the maneuvers Charles pulled on both the EEU and the Chinese Federation, the EEU itself would have invaded Japan for Sakuradite along with the Chinese.

All three power blocs are challenging each other for domination.
NO

This isn't a power struggle. Britannia is INVADING Europe. And Suzaku is helping. Whatever sorry excuse Suzaku had of claiming Lulu being too violent in his ways is completely invalidated by the fact that Suzaku is kill far more people than Lulu right now.

Suzaku's old excuse is that his way is more "right", but how is helping an invasion force "right"? How is killing people for the purpose of taking their land and wealth, "right"?

Please offer an explanation for how his method is somehow more HUMANE than Lulu's.
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Old 2008-04-13, 11:21   Link #75
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Suzaku already changed drastically from episode 23-25 alone. And he'll probably change some more.
Drastically? I think not. He just showed his true repressed self, the self that Lelouch remembered from his childhood.

And again, whether he changed from S1 is hard to say because he hasn't appeared much in S2.


Quote:
The lives lost while that idealised change takes place is no different from the lives lost in rebellion. But Suzaku's path may indeed cut the cycle of violence completely if he succeeds.
So may the rebellion if it succeeds -_- Since it'd be a lot easier to not discriminate against each other when one nation/group is oppressing the other. The problem is that these are all 'what ifs'.

And to be honest, I don't think it'll ever happen, a world without discrimination or without violence.

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Never have enough power? Suzaku has HOPE. That is one of his trademark traits, following trust and now, selfishness.
Wrong, the OotBK has hope. Todoh has hope. Consider what you said, the fact that Suzaku thinks it's 'hopeless' to fight the britainnians. If he truly had hope, he'd have joined the OoTBK. I think what Suzaku has isn't so much hope but a sense of despair, considering he also indicated that he wanted to die (or Mao indicated it by reading his mind?), proving that his beliefs in the beginning were nothing more than just something he spouted for the sake of rationalization when in reality, he sought nothing more than the absolution found in death.

So how can he have hope? A man who would prefer to die? Hope for what? That his actions will change Britainnia in the far-off future when he'd rather die? I find the two contradictory to say the least. He didn't join the army because he had hope imo, but more because it was the only choice he could choose after rationalizing everything that he had done and his own inner desire.

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And there's no proof that he's actually bad. What Schneizel is is a very practical man who would let the Numbers actually become a part of the Empire and from his words, "breathe new life into it".
And there's no proof he's actually good either -_- There's no proof of anything other than the fact he's extremely charming and intelligent, ie. very very dangerous.
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Old 2008-04-13, 11:24   Link #76
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
NO

This isn't a power struggle. Britannia is INVADING Europe. And Suzaku is helping. Whatever sorry excuse Suzaku had of claiming Lulu being too violent in his ways is completely invalidated by the fact that Suzaku is kill far more people than Lulu right now.
And France invaded Britannia in the past. BOTH sides have been at war since ever. Innocent? Britannia's only paying Europe back for messing with it in the past.

It IS a struggle for domination.

And this Suzaku is different from the Suzaku from before. Suzaku from before employed the Jesus style of fighting. I doubt this Suzaku would even care if he dismembers enemy soldiers or vaporizes them with his VARIS.

Suzaku's excuse for hating Zero is all in the past now. You can't use it against him now that he's actually changed quite a bit.

Besides, he's never had qualms killing enemy soldiers when they presented a viable threat to him in season 1.

Quote:
Suzaku's old excuse is that his way is more "right", but how is helping an invasion force "right"? How is killing people for the purpose of taking their land and wealth, "right"?
Suzaku doesn't say he's right. I'm not saying he's right. He's just doing what he can to achieve his goals.

Quote:
Please offer an explanation for how his method is somehow more HUMANE than Lulu's.
... I never said his method was more humane than Lulu's. All I said is now, Suzaku is also employing Lelouch's methods of USING others to achieve his goals and that to hate him for doing so is painfully hypocritical.
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Old 2008-04-13, 11:28   Link #77
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.. I never said his method was more humane than Lulu's. All I said is now, Suzaku is also employing Lelouch's methods of USING others to achieve his goals and that to hate him for doing so is painfully hypocritical.
Oh, I am not hating him for using others to achieve his goals; I am hating him for his goals, period.

Suzaku's goal is to ensure world dominance by Britannia, so he can feel better about himself for killing his father. Both his Ends AND Means are wrong. Thus, he is now a full-fledge villain with no redeeming points whatsoever.
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Old 2008-04-13, 11:29   Link #78
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Drastically? I think not. He just showed his true repressed self, the self that Lelouch remembered from his childhood.

And again, whether he changed from S1 is hard to say because he hasn't appeared much in S2.
... that IS a drastic change. With that reverting back, EVERYTHING changes.

Quote:
So may the rebellion if it succeeds -_- Since it'd be a lot easier to not discriminate against each other when one nation/group is oppressing the other. The problem is that these are all 'what ifs'.

And to be honest, I don't think it'll ever happen, a world without discrimination or without violence.
America was pretty racist back then. Guess what happened?

Quote:
Wrong, the OotBK has hope. Todoh has hope. Consider what you said, the fact that Suzaku thinks it's 'hopeless' to fight the britainnians. If he truly had hope, he'd have joined the OoTBK. I think what Suzaku has isn't so much hope but a sense of despair, considering he also indicated that he wanted to die (or Mao indicated it by reading his mind?), proving that his beliefs in the beginning were nothing more than just something he spouted for the sake of rationalization when in reality, he sought nothing more than the absolution found in death.

So how can he have hope? A man who would prefer to die? Hope for what? That his actions will change Britainnia in the far-off future when he'd rather die? I find the two contradictory to say the least. He didn't join the army because he had hope imo, but more because it was the only choice he could choose after rationalizing everything that he had done and his own inner desire.
Suzaku has hope that he can change people without the need of actual rebellion which only leads to more supression.

And since he believes Britannia to be unbeatable, that is the only hope he has, hope in people (like the Britannians he knows) and hope that he can change the system with said people.


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And there's no proof he's actually good either -_- There's no proof of anything other than the fact he's extremely charming and intelligent, ie. very very dangerous.
There IS proof in the sound episodes and in the anime of his pragmatism. That alone is what makes it okay for him to become Emperor.

Nearly everything he's done, Lelouch would have done if he were in the same position. He nearly checkmated Lelouch's Black Knights using Euphemia's peace plan, something that he accepts as normal for an empire: acceptance of its conquered peoples.
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Old 2008-04-13, 11:30   Link #79
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France invaded Britainnia? When was this in the CG world?
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Old 2008-04-13, 11:31   Link #80
Nanaya
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Oh, I am not hating him for using others to achieve his goals; I am hating him for his goals, period.

Suzaku's goal is to ensure world dominance by Britannia, so he can feel better about himself for killing his father. Both his Ends AND Means are wrong. Thus, he is now a full-fledge villain with no redeeming points whatsoever.
Suzaku's goal is to change the system from within. Even if Britannia manages to dominate the world, if it changes into a worthy empire, then his ideals would have succeeded and he would be praised as the man who helped reform the empire that united the world.

That's actually quite a lot of redeeming points there. Almost like Celestial Being... now that I think about it...
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