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Old 2008-05-03, 09:02   Link #781
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Ice_Bullet View Post
ouch <3 cecile punch is hawt =x

I AGREE. but i think either way suckaku wont change a damn thing inside or outside. coz he doesn't want anymore deaths. leading a rebellion means fighting a war. and in a war. u either die or live. so he wont want anyone dying.. so he wont achieve anything! no pain no gain. but i agree once again that the backstabbing was way too much. some good childhood friend he turned out to be.
Of course, now Suzaku is fighting a war, killing Europeans. But it's okay for Suzaku, as it is LEGAL under Britannian law. Morality does not matter as long as it is legal, for him.
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Old 2008-05-03, 10:33   Link #782
Sol Falling
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The morality of fighting in a war is debatable. Even if Suzaku wasn't stuck on following rules, he still believes in preventing as many deaths as is possible (even if he doesn't hesitate to kill when its necessary). You're a fan of Gundam Seed, right? What was that line about a fight between doves being especially bloody? If Suzaku can end a conflict by being overwhelmingly powerful, then why shouldn't he do it?
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Old 2008-05-03, 10:52   Link #783
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The morality of fighting in a war is debatable. Even if Suzaku wasn't stuck on following rules, he still believes in preventing as many deaths as is possible (even if he doesn't hesitate to kill when its necessary). You're a fan of Gundam Seed, right? What was that line about a fight between doves being especially bloody? If Suzaku can end a conflict by being overwhelmingly powerful, then why shouldn't he do it?
Because Suzaku is on the side that STARTED and maintained the conflict?

Europe is quite happy to stop fighting. They just don't want to be invaded. If you somehow believe Suzaku is trying to stop the war in Europe by helping the side that started it... I don't know what to say. Killing the Emperor is the quickest way to end the war in Europe, not killing Europeans.

Ending a conflict Gundam SEED style requires the peacekeeper being NEUTRAL. Suzaku is nothing like a peacekeeper at all. He doesn't even pretend to be a peacekeeper anymore. So why do you keep up the illusion when even Suzaku himself ceased to believe in it?
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Old 2008-05-03, 11:04   Link #784
Ice_Bullet
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true. if suzaku were to kill the emperor it would end it all. then no more code geass. hurray. -.-. anyway. gundam seed is all about having a theme called vestige and owning everyone , not getting a scratch on yourself and posing before the credits. i dont see suzaku doing that... he can't do that. why? he can barely defeat karen. i mean if u pay close attention to all the battles he fight against karen. all ending in a draw. if not suzaku losing or karen losing. either way. like what Vallen Chaos Valiant said.. GS or GSD fights are mainly the peacekeeping force that pwnz. and again. code geass fights are nothing compared to gs or gsd. suckaku doesn't even preach about his ideals anymore. not that we've seen him said it since he betrayed lelouch. so why should he have any mindset or plans to kill the emperor?
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Old 2008-05-03, 11:05   Link #785
Sol Falling
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How exactly does Suzaku kill the Emperor without getting killed for treason and making it even harder for other numbers to make a livelihood under the Empire?

You sure Europe would be 'happy' to stop fighting? We don't know what kind of superpower they are--they might try to invade Britannia anyway. Certainly there might be enough anti-Britannian sentiment to justify a pre-emptive strike, no?

Suzaku can't afford being neutral--he hasn't got the resources, he hasn't got the initiative. Are you saying he shouldn't stop conflicts then? Just because he's not neutral, he can't reduce killing?
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Old 2008-05-03, 11:06   Link #786
cajunman380
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not that we've seen him said it since he betrayed lelouch

how did he betray Leouch?
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Old 2008-05-03, 11:17   Link #787
hero147
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Gundam Seed is teh pw3nage! Gundam Seed is nothing like Code Geass, cause there's no Lacus or Kira, hence no lacus dust, or no absolute side that is right. Theres also no neutral side. After spending a year THAT close to the emperor, how do we know the emperor didnt rewrite Suzaku's morals and beliefs? For all we know, Suzaku could already be converted...dun dun duuun


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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
His "good childhood friend" Lelouch is better than him in both killing and backstabbing...
Out of the 2, Suzaku takes the backstabber crown overall, and Lelouch the killing crown. Lelouch never backstabbed Suzaku, intentionally, making him not a back-stabber. As I remember, Lelouch couldve killed Suzaku in Season 1 twice...Once in his Lancelot and once in the execution, but he didnt. Therefore Suzaku owes his life to Lelouch. Though Suzaku saved lelouch from mortal danger with arthur the cat and all. Soo Suzaku owes Lelouch for saving his butt once.

No offense to suzaku-lovers, but I hate his guts, Lelouch pleaded to deal with their differences after Nunnaly was saved. Now with Suzaku's foolishness, I foresee Nunally dead before the end of S2, because of the emperor using her. Now, that just pissed me off.
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Old 2008-05-03, 11:23   Link #788
Ice_Bullet
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Originally Posted by hero147 View Post
Gundam Seed is teh pw3nage! Gundam Seed is nothing like Code Geass, cause there's no Lacus or Kira, hence no lacus dust, or no absolute side that is right. Theres also no neutral side. After spending a year THAT close to the emperor, how do we know the emperor didnt rewrite Suzaku's morals and beliefs? For all we know, Suzaku could already be converted...dun dun duuun




Out of the 2, Suzaku takes the backstabber crown overall, and Lelouch the killing crown. Lelouch never backstabbed Suzaku, intentionally, making him not a back-stabber. As I remember, Lelouch couldve killed Suzaku in Season 1 twice...Once in his Lancelot and once in the execution, but he didnt. Therefore Suzaku owes his life to Lelouch. Though Suzaku saved lelouch from mortal danger with arthur the cat and all. Soo Suzaku owes Lelouch for saving his butt once.

No offense to suzaku-lovers, but I hate his guts, Lelouch pleaded to deal with their differences after Nunnaly was saved. Now with Suzaku's foolishness, I foresee Nunally dead before the end of S2, because of the emperor using her. Now, that just pissed me off.
we are on the same boat XD i despise him. yeah.. dont forget... lelouch did save him so many times using his geass.. especially when scheizel's ship fired. that was a major epic save.. but that suckaku HAD to backstab lelouch. oh noes... that f**ker standing there is zero! the noob who kill euphie my darling!! must get him arrested! dont care if its lelouch! -.- zz noob suckaku
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Old 2008-05-03, 11:51   Link #789
Sol Falling
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More like, 'must stop him because he's Lelouch'. Pay attention. Is the existance of anybody who would kill Euphie a mistake? Or is it the existance of somebody who would betray the world to the very, very end?
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Old 2008-05-03, 11:58   Link #790
DN24
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Out of the 2, Suzaku takes the backstabber crown overall, and Lelouch the killing crown. Lelouch never backstabbed Suzaku, intentionally, making him not a back-stabber. As I remember, Lelouch couldve killed Suzaku in Season 1 twice...Once in his Lancelot and once in the execution, but he didnt. Therefore Suzaku owes his life to Lelouch. Though Suzaku saved lelouch from mortal danger with arthur the cat and all. Soo Suzaku owes Lelouch for saving his butt once.
Talking about who owe who,did you guys forget how Suzaku took a bullet in ep1 R1 because he refused to shoot Lelouch??And he neutralized the bomb to save Nunnaly.Then what did Lelouch do to him?Geassed his princess with some silly joke,making her ordered a massacre, then LL killed her and ruined her name.So I say LeLouch owes Suzaku his life,his sister life and Euphie life...
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Old 2008-05-03, 13:52   Link #791
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Talking about who owe who,did you guys forget how Suzaku took a bullet in ep1 R1 because he refused to shoot Lelouch??And he neutralized the bomb to save Nunnaly.Then what did Lelouch do to him?Geassed his princess with some silly joke,making her ordered a massacre, then LL killed her and ruined her name.So I say LeLouch owes Suzaku his life,his sister life and Euphie life...
I'd like to add that in episode 25, Suzaku came out of his Lancelot when Tamaki was about to kill the student council. Another big plus for Suzaku and a big minus for Lelouch since he went and made the academy the hq for his knight-pretenders, the OoBK.
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Old 2008-05-03, 15:59   Link #792
hero147
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
Talking about who owe who,did you guys forget how Suzaku took a bullet in ep1 R1 because he refused to shoot Lelouch??And he neutralized the bomb to save Nunnaly.Then what did Lelouch do to him?Geassed his princess with some silly joke,making her ordered a massacre, then LL killed her and ruined her name.So I say LeLouch owes Suzaku his life,his sister life and Euphie life...
Save nunnally then desert her at the end? Yes, Suzaku did save Nunnally's life once, but why didnt he go after her after he restrained Lelouch? Did his morals change? Did he explicitly forget after lelouch pleaded to solve their differences AFTER they saved Nunnally? It wouldve been wiser and more beneficial for Nunnally's safety, and then betray Lelouch. Just because Suzaku couldnt shoot Lelouch doesnt mean much, Lelouch couldnt kill Suzaku when he finally realized that Suzaku was the pilot of the Lancelot. What's your point?

Lelouch "accidently" geassed Euphie, it was not his intention. Euphie had to be killed, if Lelouch were to keep her alive, her name would be ruined even more. The Geass' control on her didnt wear off, she was still in power to kill more Japanese people...Lelouch at least felt remorse for it, while Suzaku betraying lelouch without any regrets was just...sick....Suzaku seems to have lost his humane side.

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I'd like to add that in episode 25, Suzaku came out of his Lancelot when Tamaki was about to kill the student council. Another big plus for Suzaku and a big minus for Lelouch since he went and made the academy the hq for his knight-pretenders, the OoBK.
Lelouch made his hq at the school, to protect the students there, that was the reason. Tamaki kinda came off like a big-shot saying he knew Zero best. I wouldnt add anybody who wasnt exactly very critical to the story into the equation because by the time we're done, we'll be calculating every individual person who Suzaku/Lelouch saved.
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Old 2008-05-03, 16:41   Link #793
killer3000ad
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Lelouch made his hq at the school, to protect the students there, that was the reason. Tamaki kinda came off like a big-shot saying he knew Zero best. I wouldnt add anybody who wasnt exactly very critical to the story into the equation because by the time we're done, we'll be calculating every individual person who Suzaku/Lelouch saved.
How are the student council not critical to the story? They get good enough screen time in both Season 1 and R2 already. And how did Lelouch think that making the school his HQ would protect the students there? Logically speaking, making a civilian building a military base just makes it a target.
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Old 2008-05-03, 16:51   Link #794
ashlay
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How are the student council not critical to the story? They get good enough screen time in both Season 1 and R2 already. And how did Lelouch think that making the school his HQ would protect the students there? Logically speaking, making a civilian building a military base just makes it a target.
well, except that if the Order is doing their job right, fighting isn't going to get anywhere near Ashford.

If it hadn't been deemed a strategic spot, it wouldn't have been defended, and so it would have been a lot easier for fighting to spread out into that area. Of course Nina had a nuke in the basement, but who would have seen that coming? >_>
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Old 2008-05-03, 16:52   Link #795
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Suzaku didn't backstab Lelouch. It's not his job to automatically join the BK just cause Lelouch says so. Lelouch spared him a few times and Suzaku helped him out an equal number of times and stopped Lelouch's own guys from killing his friends so they're about even (I'd say Lelouch hurt Suzaku more than Suzaku hurt him since Lelouch was responsible for the death of his love and the destruction of his dream and ideals where as all Lelouch got was a year of no memories and some humillation. Nunally's still alive and safe and his plan's while interrupted can still proceed. Euphie's dead and peace between Britannian's and Japanese is almost impossible now)

As for Suzaku not saving Nunally, why would he need to? He knows she's safe in Britannia and seems to have been in contact with her often and is no doubt looking out for her. Who's he need to save her from? If anything in his mind she's safer with him than with Lelouch who kills his own family without any apparant remorse.
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Old 2008-05-03, 17:42   Link #796
hero147
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Suzaku didn't backstab Lelouch. It's not his job to automatically join the BK just cause Lelouch says so. Lelouch spared him a few times and Suzaku helped him out an equal number of times and stopped Lelouch's own guys from killing his friends so they're about even (I'd say Lelouch hurt Suzaku more than Suzaku hurt him since Lelouch was responsible for the death of his love and the destruction of his dream and ideals where as all Lelouch got was a year of no memories and some humillation. Nunally's still alive and safe and his plan's while interrupted can still proceed. Euphie's dead and peace between Britannian's and Japanese is almost impossible now)

As for Suzaku not saving Nunally, why would he need to? He knows she's safe in Britannia and seems to have been in contact with her often and is no doubt looking out for her. Who's he need to save her from? If anything in his mind she's safer with him than with Lelouch who kills his own family without any apparant remorse.
I wouldnt want my kid in Britannia, especially near the emperor. Nunnally is most likely with the emperor, we dont know if Suzaku still has knowledge of her existence due to the fact that basically the emperor wiped her from the face of the earth. Being with the emperor is not safe, Lelouch commented on how the emperor even uses his own kids as tools, as being a tool himself. In the beginning, when lelouch stripped his loyalty they were political tools, and were tossed to japan to supposely rot and die, until the Ashfords took them in.

Lelouch seems to kill his own family without any remorse, but he would not hurt Nunnally in the slightest, that is absolute. But the statement should be that Lelouch doesnt show remorse when he kills those who are deemed evil. I'm pretty sure Lelouch started breaking down after killing Euphie, though he didnt kill Cornelia yet, we'll see how that turns out.
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Old 2008-05-03, 22:02   Link #797
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Yes but once again we know Lelouch wouldn't hurt Nunnally and his reasons and such for fighting. Suzaku does not.
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Old 2008-05-03, 22:20   Link #798
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Originally Posted by War_Lord View Post
When I say being threatened, I mean they're not being forced to conform to Britannian's values and beliefs, they're just being discriminated against for their origin/traditions/customs. They can still practice those in the area they were given, there aren't any Britannian laws that are against it.
In which case they'd lose independence (quoted General Toudou), nuff said (stop bringing up the SAR, been on it for too long)
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Claiming something is true on the grounds that the majority of people think it is right would be what debators call an ad populum fallacy. Their plan was never even given a chance, so there's no way to tell whether it would've worked or not.
The fact that most people think it'd never have worked is obvious (ok maybe not to you)
The fact that you think I claimed it to be true then bring up ad populum fallacy and argue the idea would have worked, is your own stupid problem.
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Originally Posted by War_Lord View Post
Lulu is using the same tactics that the emperor used to take over Japan. Britannia is a strong country, yet Lulu is putting up a good fight. If a strong nation like Britannia end up being conquered in such a short amount of time, what makes you think the same thing won't happen if Lulu takes over?
As I've said, I'd stop supporting him.
Spoiler for irrelevant facts, not actual argument, can be skipped:

@Lestaki: Thank you for taking the time to type all that up, which was rather insightful and informative. Correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying Suzaku is a hypocrite in one way or another, just that it's always been overstated. His method may differ from Lelouch's, but ultimately they're heading towards the same goal. Suzaku deliberately chooses to go against his ideals in order to realize them, which marks him as being consistent in his belief. You see a lot of people in the world are like that too, they sometimes find their obligation conflicting with their sense of morality/philosophy and are forced to take similar approaches. One can contradict oneself knowingly or otherwise, either way it doesn't save one from being called a hypocrite by others.
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And personally, I'm hoping that the show will be very careful with Lulu's probable victory. Impossible odds are entertaining but if the outcome is achieved in an impossible way, that's laughable
Are you suggesting that Code Geass is a ridiculous show? BLASPHEMY!
If you want to know whether Suzaku's really a hypocrite or not, let's stop whingeing about the past (some of you still believe [A] would have worked, [B] would have happened, [C] wouldn't have...) and see if Suzaku will succeed in the end or will just be another Britannian pawn who later gets owned by Lelouch. If he does succeed, however, I'm sure people will think better of him. Time will tell who's right and who's wrong, and for me, I'm on Lelouch's side. Suzaku lost my support in the conversation with Lelouch after the hostage rescue, and I wish it had gone like this:
L: It was nice that everybody got rescued by the Order of the Black Knights.
S: If they wanted to capture the culprits, they should've waited for the police to go in. Why didn't they do that?
L: They probably thought it'd have been too late, the police are incompetent after all.
S: They may be incompetent now, but it's OK if they start to change internally, right?
L: They intend to change, but end up being tied down by various hindrances.
S: That's something you should say only after they put in all their effort and try to make changes up until the very end...
L: By which time the hostages will already be six feet under. For example there are two persons, each one is suffering from a serious illness which can only be cured by some very rare herbs, I know you're the type of guy that'll try and save both of them, but they both end up dead and you won't feel bad about it, reasoning at least you've tried your best. Me, I'll choose which one to save and let the other go to hell. Whether you like it or not hardly concerns me.
S: ...By not doing that, they're just self-justifying their actions.
L: Yeah, like I give a /f^k/, you ungrateful brat.
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Old 2008-05-03, 22:44   Link #799
War_Lord
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In which case they'd lose independence (quoted General Toudou), nuff said (stop bringing up the SAR, been on it for too long)
You're stating that they'd loose their independence on a quote based on opinion not fact. It's solely up to the people how they respond to the discrimination. Not all of them took it so hard. Suzaku is a prime example. Like I said, it's not against the law for them to practice their beliefs and values. So by the standard of how I look at the situation, their beliefs and values weren't officially threatened.

Quote:
The fact that most people think it'd never have worked is obvious (ok maybe not to you)
The fact that you think I claimed it to be true then bring up ad populum fallacy and argue the idea would have worked, is your own stupid problem.
You gave me no reason to think otherwise. Most of your statements thus far had a purpose. Why did you post something like that if you weren't trying to make a point?
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Last edited by War_Lord; 2008-05-03 at 22:55.
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Old 2008-05-03, 23:04   Link #800
orangejuicetang
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True, Suzuku is sometimes hypocritical. However, it would be lying to also say that Lelouch is never hypocritical as well. In fact, most people are at least a tiny bit hypocritical. I personally find it hard to believe that a person could walk up to me and honestly say "I have never done or said a hypocritical thing in my entire life"
Also, just curious, but does anyone else think that
Spoiler for Speculation:

And finally, there is no point in argueing about whether SAR would have worked or not, for the sole reason that it never happened. The only real way to decide it is for the producers to make an alternate reality in which it happened. Argueing about whether it would be a success or a failure is like kicking a dead dog. Actually lets make that a puppy. That died during childbirth.
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