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Old 2009-01-19, 18:18   Link #8301
Narona
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Originally Posted by Daril Gukku View Post
I think if Lelouch had tried to explain what happened with Euphie, they might have come to a truce. I'm sure if he talked about it seriously with Suzaku, Suzaku would have been able to tell that he truly cared about Euphie and regretted killing her.

But he was too distracted by Nunnally being kidnapped and when he started talking about Euphemia being in the past and they had to save Nunnally RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE!!!1!1, I think that pushed it over the edge for Suzaku. At that moment, there was no way he could forgive him right then.
What is great is that Suzaku saw behind lelouch's lie. He knew that something wa snot right about euphie.

IIRC, he even said that he will help him and that lelouch should continue to lie (not sure that he said that, I ca,'t remember).

The plan failed not because of lelouch (even if he lied again and it was not necessary) but because of schneizel/Kanon.
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Old 2009-01-20, 04:24   Link #8302
Levy
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LOL, you make me it sound like the homopairing is what Lelouch and Suzaku fought over. XDDDD

Jokes aside, yes, I was under the very same impression, that Suzaku had understood that Lelouch was lying... and that's why I was a bit confused by his apparently firm resolution of killing Lelouch in ep.21
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Old 2009-01-20, 04:45   Link #8303
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
LOL, you make me it sound like the homopairing is what Lelouch and Suzaku fought over. XDDDD

Jokes aside, yes, I was under the very same impression, that Suzaku had understood that Lelouch was lying... and that's why I was a bit confused by his apparently firm resolution of killing Lelouch in ep.21
Just because he got that Lelouch was lying doesn't change the fact that Lelouch killed Euphy, and Suzaku had already forgotten their conversation come Turn 18. Hell, he forgot about Shirley and Euphy not selling Lelouch out in minutes in Turn 21. When it comes to his revenge, Suzaku has a very short attention span.
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Old 2009-01-20, 06:03   Link #8304
Levy
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I think it's again more a problem of very bad writing of those episodes (ep.21 was, leaving aside the part in wich Lelouch speaks about Nunnaly with his parents, quite a pain in the ass), but you know, I find your revengefull-ADD-Suzaku quite amusing for some reasons =P

Anyway, yes, even if he geassed her unintentionally, even if he lied about that, Lelouch is still the one that shot down Euphie. I'm confident Suzaku understood to a degree that there was more than Lelouch's lie about it, and silently made up with him during ZR, but still, Euphie is dead by the hands of Lelouch and this will never change.
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Old 2009-01-20, 10:06   Link #8305
Narona
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
Anyway, yes, even if he geassed her unintentionally, even if he lied about that, Lelouch is still the one that shot down Euphie. I'm confident Suzaku understood to a degree that there was more than Lelouch's lie about it, and silently made up with him during ZR, but still, Euphie is dead by the hands of Lelouch and this will never change.
If at least Euphie died for a good reason, but it was because of a stupid, not funny joke .

Maybe suzaku would have been even more mad at Lelouch if he learned the truth ealier in the show XD.


Seriously, this was not a joke. Lelouch said that out of vanity, which makes the whole mistake even more inexcusable.

I can finally provide the dialogue.

Euphie: "did you really think I would shoot you if you threatened me, Lelouch?"

Lelouch: "No, I didn't. If I really want to give an order, none can disobey me. Shoot me, fire suzaku, I could ask you to do anything. "

Euphie: "You're such a jokester."

Lelouch: "I'm serious. Even if I were to say 'Kill all the Japanese" you would have no choice, and would do it."
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Old 2009-01-20, 10:14   Link #8306
Levy
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Yeah, true that...
In a way, I pity Lelouch. Despite his power, he's oftenly being the pawn of several things, not last a remarkably bad luck. ^^;

there's that Shakespear's Romeo line I can't provide in english without browsing google that sounds like 'I'm the puppet of fate' that although sounding quite horrible in my crappy instant translation suits him quite a bit.
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Old 2009-01-20, 10:27   Link #8307
Narona
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
Yeah, true that...
In a way, I pity Lelouch. Despite his power, he's oftenly being the pawn of several things, not last a remarkably bad luck. ^^;

there's that Shakespear's Romeo line I can't provide in english without browsing google that sounds like 'I'm the puppet of fate' that although sounding quite horrible in my crappy instant translation suits him quite a bit.
Lelouch was not perfect (I don't excuse him about the massacre of japanese, I just understand how it comes to that. Same when I try to understand how Rolo becomes the man who killed someone like shirley). He was eaten by the power he got. He felt so invincible (when it comes to order people) that he looked down on people, even on Euphie for a short moment.

Geass doesn't exist in real life, but obtaining great power like becoming the leader of a country can make people do the same mistake. They feel so powerful that they forget that power is dangerous.

You mean the "I am fortune's fool" romeo's line (in english), I think.
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Old 2009-01-20, 11:06   Link #8308
Levy
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yeah, this is one of the things I liked the most about his character: spectacular spectacular and with an absolute power, and still a boy with all his human limits like pride, vanity and such...

wait.. wasn't this the Suzaku topic? XD;;;

yes, that's the line..and it sounds so much better than the one I provided XD
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Old 2009-01-20, 14:32   Link #8309
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At the same time though, Euphie was still all "Oh you're just joking!" To which Lelouch was like "No, I'm serious", and felt the need to give a more extreme example of what his power was capable of. It's just too bad that it activated at the worst possible moment. Besides, when it happened, he tried to stop her.
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Old 2009-01-20, 22:14   Link #8310
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
At the same time though, Euphie was still all "Oh you're just joking!" To which Lelouch was like "No, I'm serious", and felt the need to give a more extreme example of what his power was capable of. It's just too bad that it activated at the worst possible moment. Besides, when it happened, he tried to stop her.
I hate it when people try to make crappy excuses for him
His intention was to have her shoot him with a stun gun in front of a crowd of witnesses or did you forget? Lelouch is guilty period. If there's anyone who didn't take it seriously it was him for him to make a joke like that.
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Old 2009-01-20, 22:36   Link #8311
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I hate it when people try to make crappy excuses for him
His intention was to have her shoot him with a stun gun in front of a crowd of witnesses or did you forget? Lelouch is guilty period. If there's anyone who didn't take it seriously it was him for him to make a joke like that.
Oh give me a break. Does Lelouch have to be held guilty for something he later abstained from? And to call the "kill the Japanese" thing joke is ridiculous. As one of the other posters said, it's not like he said "Oops, she took it too seriously!"
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Old 2009-01-20, 23:43   Link #8312
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Oh give me a break. Does Lelouch have to be held guilty for something he later abstained from? And to call the "kill the Japanese" thing joke is ridiculous. As one of the other posters said, it's not like he said "Oops, she took it too seriously!"
No. But that sure as hell does make him accountable for it regardless of how many excuses fans put up for him. And yes him saying "You know I have the power to command you to do whatever I say like kill the Japanese" now who the hell jokes about genocide in that situation? And if by abstained you mean clean up after is own himself, then yes.
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Old 2009-01-21, 02:08   Link #8313
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Originally Posted by Haku-Men View Post
No. But that sure as hell does make him accountable for it regardless of how many excuses fans put up for him. And yes him saying "You know I have the power to command you to do whatever I say like kill the Japanese" now who the hell jokes about genocide in that situation? And if by abstained you mean clean up after is own himself, then yes.
It was a hypothetical, using an action totally unthinkable by Euphemia as an example, intended to give an idea of how serious Lelouch's power was. Calling it a "joke" gives it the connotation of facetiousness, something Lelouch clearly had no intention of there. To suggest he was joking about genocide is absurd.
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Old 2009-01-21, 02:10   Link #8314
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None of it matters in this thread, as this thread's for Suzaku and not Lelouch.
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Old 2009-01-22, 23:02   Link #8315
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None of it matters in this thread, as this thread's for Suzaku and not Lelouch.
Thats what I was just thinking... we need to start a big debate about Suzaku >>
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Old 2009-01-23, 15:24   Link #8316
Narona
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Just because he got that Lelouch was lying doesn't change the fact that Lelouch killed Euphy, and Suzaku had already forgotten their conversation come Turn 18. Hell, he forgot about Shirley and Euphy not selling Lelouch out in minutes in Turn 21. When it comes to his revenge, Suzaku has a very short attention span.
Because he cared a lot to Euphie ^^. Lelouch too took choices out of anger when shirley (romantic interest or just dear friend, he cared for her a lot) died (about the massacre of the cult).

Lelouch and Suzaku share a lot of similitudes despite their different vision of how to change the world (before the ZR)
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Old 2009-01-23, 19:09   Link #8317
morbosfist
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Because he cared a lot to Euphie ^^. Lelouch too took choices out of anger when shirley (romantic interest or just dear friend, he cared for her a lot) died (about the massacre of the cult).

Lelouch and Suzaku share a lot of similitudes despite their different vision of how to change the world (before the ZR)
Don't deny that, just stating the obvious. Plus, this isn't merely choices out of anger for Suzaku. It was the first time. Second time when it's his fault their meeting is compromised (I don't care if Schenizel did it in secret, you shouldn't be stupid enough to be followed while meeting with a terrorist), he's right back to the same mindset when he was going to help Lelouch an hour earlier. Then they pretty much save the entire world, and he recognizes for a fact that both Euphy and Shirley did not sell Lelouch out, and again he goes back to revenge. Nothing should be that blinding.
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Old 2009-01-23, 19:36   Link #8318
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Don't deny that, just stating the obvious. Plus, this isn't merely choices out of anger for Suzaku. It was the first time. Second time when it's his fault their meeting is compromised (I don't care if Schenizel did it in secret, you shouldn't be stupid enough to be followed while meeting with a terrorist), he's right back to the same mindset when he was going to help Lelouch an hour earlier. Then they pretty much save the entire world, and he recognizes for a fact that both Euphy and Shirley did not sell Lelouch out, and again he goes back to revenge. Nothing should be that blinding.
Yeah cause how the hell the audience let alone Suzaku is supposed to know Kanon can manage to conceal his presence until the right moment of confrontation. Now your just being to damn nitpicky. FYI episode 8 from R2 shed light that infact Suzaku wanted to know why he killed Euphie (it's only natural since if someone you love is killed infront of your very eyes you want to know the circumstance that led to it) as for the battle scene in episode 18 it was obvious he was bluffing about using FREIJA and Lelouch (not thinking) gave the order to kill him. And to blame blame him without realizing earlier is freaking stupid any person, Suzaku thought Lelouch was the worst person in the world and you expect him to understand after everything that happened?
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Old 2009-01-24, 06:49   Link #8319
morbosfist
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Yeah cause how the hell the audience let alone Suzaku is supposed to know Kanon can manage to conceal his presence until the right moment of confrontation.
Kanon, a squad of soldiers, and three Knightmares. If it were just Kanon and he got sold out later, that'd be one thing. Suzaku was just careless here.

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Originally Posted by Haku-Men View Post
FYI episode 8 from R2 shed light that infact Suzaku wanted to know why he killed Euphie (it's only natural since if someone you love is killed infront of your very eyes you want to know the circumstance that led to it) as for the battle scene in episode 18 it was obvious he was bluffing about using FREIJA and Lelouch (not thinking) gave the order to kill him.
Not sure what that has to do with my point. One, yes he did want to know, but even when he figured out that Lelouch was lying about the reason, he still stuck to his revenge. FLEIJA has nothing to do with it, either. That was his bluff. The point remains that he is still trying to punish Lelouch, or rather Zero, after coming so close to reconciling with him.

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And to blame him without realizing earlier is freaking stupid any person, Suzaku thought Lelouch was the worst person in the world and you expect him to understand after everything that happened?
I'm not sure what you're referring to here, so I'll respond as best as possible. The first time, when Lelouch had just killed Euphy, yes that holds true. It does not the second and third times, where Lelouch is asking for help and saving the world, respectively.
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Old 2009-01-24, 08:24   Link #8320
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Well, Suzaku is certainly not very subtle most of the time... and pretty messed up.
But that's part of why I like him so much.

And then there's the fact that his nemesis was Lelouch, of all people. I don't see any point in trying to excuse either of them, but I doubt that Suzaku would have reacted the same way if some random terrorist had been Euphie's murderer - and not his best friend.
Neither of them acted very rational after their meeting at the shrine, and people can start throwing things at them for that if they want to... but I'd prefer to hug them.
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