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Old 2009-06-01, 02:21   Link #8521
bladeofdarkness
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you DO notice that while we saw kallen being saved by gino
they never bothered to explain how the heck SUZAKU survived
he was in his mecha, and he should have died by all rights since he
1)was out of power
2)as people keep insisting, the lancelot has not eject system
he couldnt have just jumped out the back of the thing, becouse even if we FORGET about the whole "miles up in the air, almost in orbit, not enough air and too cold" bit
your still left with the fact that after taking a hit to the chest that ment his KMF was seconds away from exploding, he was sitting in his cocpit like a lemon instead of scrambeling to get out the back and get some distance between him and the machine (like what lelouch did)
if kallen was saved by gino
then suzaku was saved by deus ex machina in the same way that gillford was

P.S
he didnt destroy her most powerful weapon before the last attack (i'm considering both harken strikes as one move)
he DID lose the leg, but her arm was still woking and well on its way to killing him when he launcehd the harkens
and the "official" last attack of the fight (the one that WASNT a ditch effort but rather an attemped to win) was a spinzaku kick VS a kallen claw strike
it couldnt have been more symbolic if the had used swords
and kallen was the one who won that praticular sword crossing (suzaku's broke)
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Old 2009-06-01, 02:22   Link #8522
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai View Post
Ifs doesn't make your argument valid, and way to contradict yourself genius, since he still managed to destroy her most powerful tool with that leg along with the fact that those harukens destroyed the operation system but yet you claim Kallen had a full functioning Knightmare Frame after his last attack, whether you wanna deny the fact that her last attack wasn't a last-ditch effort is up to you considering it's staring right in the face.
You're not making much sense. Ifs are ifs, they're part of the argument. If he had missed, he'd have lost. Simple. He didn't miss, but nevertheless it was his last attack. He had nothing left to do. His Knightmare could no longer remain mobile. Kallen's was mobile up until his last-ditch attack stopped it. I'm not denying anything, this is simple fact. It was a last-ditch attack, because he had lost the ability to move.

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Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai View Post
You see you keep making these BS excuses but you have no evidence to back it up, whether your right or wrong about the shields she would have slid off like you believe and do you know how far of a drop that is? And in case you forgot she fainted after the battle, so your implying that she would be able to recover the strength to afterwards? Finally Gino was the only one in the area since Kallen was the only one to bypass the shields thanks to him and since everyone had their KMF destroyed and Xingke was just heading out ti the battlefield at the time (after Lelouch declaration of his victory) no one would have saved her, try harder
Fainting isn't permanent, you know. People do wake up. There were plenty of Knightmares buzzing around the Damocles. You can see them fighting outside the windows, and even before that when Lelouch and Nunnally start talking. Gino was not her only hope. I suggest you pay more attention before telling others to try harder.
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Old 2009-06-01, 02:35   Link #8523
FruitsPunchSamurai
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
You're not making much sense. Ifs are ifs, they're part of the argument. If he had missed, he'd have lost. Simple. He didn't miss, but nevertheless it was his last attack. He had nothing left to do. His Knightmare could no longer remain mobile. Kallen's was mobile up until his last-ditch attack stopped it. I'm not denying anything, this is simple fact. It was a last-ditch attack, because he had lost the ability to move.
I'll play your game if she had missed she would have lost. THE END. I'm not sure what your trying to prove anymore?
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Fainting isn't permanent, you know. People do wake up. There were plenty of Knightmares buzzing around the Damocles. You can see them fighting outside the windows, and even before that when Lelouch and Nunnally start talking. Gino was not her only hope. I suggest you pay more attention before telling others to try harder.
Again with this crap, your assuming that all these plot devices will conveniently come to rescue her when in the end because she's Kallen The KMFs were outside from the shields and Kallen was the only one to get through, she was inside of the shield and your telling me that any KMF would have swooped in to save her? Word of advice when your making a statement try not to sound so damn biased.
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Old 2009-06-01, 02:40   Link #8524
bladeofdarkness
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she had two working arms and legs
he had one leg
one arm
and almost no chest at that point
thats why he has that OH SHIT look on his face when firing the harkens

and while i do agree that gino saved her from death
i also state again
suzaku was saved by plotus necesitus
AKA deus ex machina
he SHOULD have been killed, and they never bothered to explain how he survived when all his actions look and sound like he accepts that she just killed him
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Old 2009-06-01, 02:41   Link #8525
FruitsPunchSamurai
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
you DO notice that while we saw kallen being saved by gino
they never bothered to explain how the heck SUZAKU survived
he was in his mecha, and he should have died by all rights since he
1)was out of power
2)as people keep insisting, the lancelot has not eject system
he couldnt have just jumped out the back of the thing, becouse even if we FORGET about the whole "miles up in the air, almost in orbit, not enough air and too cold" bit
your still left with the fact that after taking a hit to the chest that ment his KMF was seconds away from exploding, he was sitting in his cocpit like a lemon instead of scrambeling to get out the back and get some distance between him and the machine (like what lelouch did)
if kallen was saved by gino
then suzaku was saved by deus ex machina in the same way that gillford was
So what's your damn point? All that it shows is that Suzaku would have lived regardless of the outcome in order for Zero's Requiem to be complete, since without him Lelouch would have been dead
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
P.S
he didnt destroy her most powerful weapon before the last attack (i'm considering both harken strikes as one move)
he DID lose the leg, but her arm was still woking and well on its way to killing him when he launcehd the harkens
and the "official" last attack of the fight (the one that WASNT a ditch effort but rather an attemped to win) was a spinzaku kick VS a kallen claw strike
it couldnt have been more symbolic if the had used swords
and kallen was the one who won that praticular sword crossing (suzaku's broke)
That's what I was referring too, without the claw Kallen would be useless hence her most powerful weapon, he used the hakens to knock the Gurens systems down and destroy the head
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
she had two working arms and legs
he had one leg
one arm
and almost no chest at that point
thats why he has that OH SHIT look on his face when firing the harkens

and while i do agree that gino saved her from death
i also state again
suzaku was saved by plotus necesitus
AKA deus ex machina
he SHOULD have been killed, and they never bothered to explain how he survived when all his actions look and sound like he accepts that she just killed him
I can't explain how he survive that, all it means that he was meant to live for Zeros Requiem other than that it's the inconsistencies on the writing
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Old 2009-06-01, 02:48   Link #8526
bladeofdarkness
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the arm was in perfect working order after the kick
all it lost was the control rods for the wide range blast (useless anyway, since she was out of juice)
she was about to kill him with that arm (hence why he blew it off first with tha harken)

and my POINT was that you dont KNOW how he lived
you see him sitting around like a lemon and explode before making a jesus like return and saving the day
but we dont see how the fuck he survived that
who says that he wouldnt have died himself if someone hadnt found his ejection block out side on the ledgh
or that he didnt almost freeze to death before a search and rescue team found him

i know that its nothing more then speculation
but since the cast made it a point to make it look like he died and then have him show up without any explntion, its no more of an ass pull to say that he would have survived on his own (out side, miles up in the air) then it morbo's suggestion that kallen might have survived falling into the sea below
its like you said
BOTH were ment to survive
and having gino catch kallen on screen covered HER rescue
but we dont know HOW suzaku survived, which means that we dont know that he wouldnt have died without getting help of his own (more then likely, given his condition and situation)
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Old 2009-06-01, 03:01   Link #8527
FruitsPunchSamurai
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the arm was in perfect working order after the kick
all it lost was the control rods for the wide range blast (useless anyway, since she was out of juice)
she was about to kill him with that arm (hence why he blew it off first with tha harken)

and my POINT was that you dont KNOW how he lived
you see him sitting around like a lemon and explode before making a jesus like return and saving the day
but we dont see how the fuck he survived that
who says that he wouldnt have died himself if someone hadnt found his ejection block out side on the ledgh
or that he didnt almost freeze to death before a search and rescue team found him

i know that its nothing more then speculation
but since the cast made it a point to make it look like he died and then have him show up without any explntion, its no more of an ass pull to say that he would have survived on his own (out side, miles up in the air) then it morbo's suggestion that kallen might have survived falling into the sea below
its like you said
BOTH were ment to survive
and having gino catch kallen on screen covered HER rescue
but we dont know HOW suzaku survived, which means that we dont know that he wouldnt have died without getting help of his own (more then likely, given his condition and situation)
For the last damn time the kick destroyed the arm (along with his leg) and the harkens took out what was left of it's head. It's quite obvious that you and morbos are biased when it comes to these sort of discussions so your gonna make up any sort of explanation as to why Kallen should live and why Suzaku should have died so it's pointless to have this sort of discussion, all I'm saying is that Suzaku was needed for Zero's Requiem he needed to thwart out the enemies and he needed to live, who else would have token on the mantle? No one. And why was it important for her to be saved? Nothing.
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Old 2009-06-01, 03:04   Link #8528
bladeofdarkness
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1)re-watch the fight
the arm was still working after the kick

2)
Quote:
all I'm saying is that Suzaku was needed for Zero's Requiem he needed to thwart out the enemies and he needed to live, who else would have token on the mantle? No one. And why was it important for her to be saved? Nothing.
not sure i understand what that even MEANS
what do you mean why is it important for her to survive ?
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Old 2009-06-01, 03:09   Link #8529
FruitsPunchSamurai
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
not sure i understand what that even MEANS
what do you mean why is it important for her to survive ?
Why is it so important for her to of survive the final fight compares to Suzaku who needed to survive. They were obviously gunning to kill each other and Lelouch obviously did not tell Suzaku to spare her life(or any) if she became a threat.
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Old 2009-06-01, 03:15   Link #8530
bladeofdarkness
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again
i dont understand what you mean by importent
suzaku surviving might have been importent for the sake of the PLAN
but that by no means insures his survival IN UNIVERSE nor makes his survival more important
it only means that he AS A CHARCTER has a reason to want to win and survive the fight

if your looking at it from a "forth wall breaking" POV
the his survival for the sake of the plot fills the end of zero-r just as kallen's survival fills the epilouge need
and, like i said before, having any character other then complete douchbags like diethard die during the final arc
makes ZERO-R being a good thing, a very hard sale
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Old 2009-06-01, 03:21   Link #8531
FruitsPunchSamurai
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
again
i dont understand what you mean by importent
suzaku surviving might have been importent for the sake of the PLAN
but that by no means insures his survival IN UNIVERSE nor makes his survival more important
it only means that he AS A CHARCTER has a reason to want to win and survive the fight
That sure as hell doesn't explain how he survived now does it
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
if your looking at it from a "forth wall breaking" POV
the his survival for the sake of the plot fills the end of zero-r just as kallen's survival fills the epilouge need
and, like i said before, having any character other then complete douchbags like diethard die during the final arc
makes ZERO-R being a good thing, a very hard sale
Eh. I wouldn't of cared really and there were PLENTY of fans who hated the fact that some of the characters survived to the end of the series so in the end you can't justify people would of hated that aspect if most were gunning for it, hence "douchbags" did make it
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Old 2009-06-01, 03:30   Link #8532
bladeofdarkness
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SOME douchbags didnt die
but that wasnt the IMPORTENT part
NON douchbags didnt die
think about it like this

would you still like lelouch if his use of kaguya and the tianxi and nuke shields got them killed ?
would you still like him if he ended up getting nunnaly killed in his attack on the damocles
same deal here
lelouch kick starts a plan for taking over the world
and he makes it a point to keep kallen in the dark when she comes right up to him to ASK him about it

kallen getting killed in the final arc mean that lelouch had managed to get BOTH of his LI's killed
and BOTH of them in similer situations that are indircetly HIS FAULT
lelouch comes up with a crazy plan (who he keeps the girl out of to protect her) involving an unexpected but dangerus ally
who ends up killing the girl to keep her from getting in their way
it makes selling him as a hero much harder if he kills any likeable character who wasnt involved in his betryal
since it means that he is ENTIRELY at fault for turning them into his enemy in the first place


P.S
and how did we get to this topic again ?
the debate was about whether or not suzaku was trying to win
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Old 2009-06-01, 14:45   Link #8533
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FPS, please drop the attitude towards the other posters. Not trying to mini-mod or anything.
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Old 2009-06-01, 14:56   Link #8534
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I agree. Just because you can come off as a rude jackass on the net doesn't mean you need to.
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Old 2009-06-01, 19:24   Link #8535
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
SOME douchbags didnt die
but that wasnt the IMPORTENT part
NON douchbags didnt die
think about it like this

would you still like lelouch if his use of kaguya and the tianxi and nuke shields got them killed ?
would you still like him if he ended up getting nunnaly killed in his attack on the damocles
same deal here
lelouch kick starts a plan for taking over the world
and he makes it a point to keep kallen in the dark when she comes right up to him to ASK him about it

kallen getting killed in the final arc mean that lelouch had managed to get BOTH of his LI's killed
and BOTH of them in similer situations that are indircetly HIS FAULT
lelouch comes up with a crazy plan (who he keeps the girl out of to protect her) involving an unexpected but dangerus ally
who ends up killing the girl to keep her from getting in their way
it makes selling him as a hero much harder if he kills any likeable character who wasnt involved in his betryal
since it means that he is ENTIRELY at fault for turning them into his enemy in the first place
Well that's just YOUR opinion man.
I wouldn't of thought any differently of Lelouch if the entire OOBK were killed off because of the explosion (and I doubt anyone would have cared) since the entire time he wasn't trying to save anyone's life or go easy since he know his plan would have failed, Kallen and Rivalz are a different story since Kallen was gonna claw him inside the ship because she didn't understand at the time and Rivalz wasn't fighting, Nunnally as you know was Lelouch's weakness and would never kill her under the circumstance that's why he went to stop her (his final goodbye should indicate this) and to honest Kallen not being able to figure it out would be her fate not Lelouch's she manage to survive with sheer strength and luck by her side and at the time Lelouch was primarily focus on making up for his sins through Zero's Requiem. Another thing is that Lelouch was never a hero to begin with so that kind of scenario isn't at all farfetched, his tendencies were to fix his atrocities by becoming a tyrant of the world and then have Suzaku kill him to rebuild it so in the end there's nothing heroic about it, sacrificial but not heroic.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
P.S
and how did we get to this topic again ?
the debate was about whether or not suzaku was trying to win
Of course he was trying to win he said it himself both of them were giving their all in the final battle since if they didn't they would be dead. It would be stupid of Lelouch to of told Suzaku to go easy on Kallen because she was an "LI" because Suzaku wouldn't make it and Kallen would have gotten to Lelouch.
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FPS, please drop the attitude towards the other posters. Not trying to mini-mod or anything.
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
I agree. Just because you can come off as a rude jackass on the net doesn't mean you need to.
Well incase you two didn't read my signature, I'm a bit of a DICK.
But trust me that wasn't intended so sorry.
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Old 2009-06-01, 19:38   Link #8536
bladeofdarkness
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fandumb and the ability of viewers to misunderstand what the story tellers are aiming at becouse a character looks "cool" will always be around
but look at it from a story telling POV
remove lelouch's draco in leather pants status from the picture
and what you are left with a character who behaves like a complete monster during the entire final arc
between using women and children as human shields, mind raping untold thousends, sacrificing many of his own soldiers in tactics that show complete lack of care for human life, and telling nunnaly that she stands as an example of everything he hates and despises
lelouch is already very close to the edge of becoming a totally unlikable douchbag himself
where once he was walking the thin line between hero and villain, he is WELL past the point of no return now
he may never have really been a "hero", but he was at least LIKABLE becouse he had people who he interacted with that MADE him likeable (nunnaly most of all)
in the final arc he ends up turning those people into his enemies in the most brutal way that can be
which is why he needs all the help he can GET to be able to stay likable
making sure that almost no named character died becouse of his shit
and that they all get happy endings becouse of him
goes a long way to make him likable again
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Old 2009-06-01, 19:43   Link #8537
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It was an act. He had to convince people he was the world's worst emperor in order to draw in the hatred of the people and make them embrace a more peaceful vision of the future, and he would have likely failed in this had he had gone any softer.
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Old 2009-06-01, 19:49   Link #8538
bladeofdarkness
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i'm not talking about how he TALKED
THAT was an act
im talking about what he DID
and the things he actually DID are much worse then mearly telling nunnaly he dislikes her or blowing kallen off in ashford

1)turning thousends of people into slaves
2)using women and children as human shields
3)using his own troops as a meat shield and killing them by the hundreds in doing so
4)murdering everyone who disagrees with him
choose any of those and tack them onto any other character
see if you still like them after that
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Old 2009-06-01, 19:58   Link #8539
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And I'm talking about the ultimate motivation behind those acts. Not that I necessarily agree with the acts themselves.

The motivation behind those acts was for himself to become hated by the whole world, and not just by Kallen or Nunnally. The real question is whether any of those acts he carried out were unnecessary for his final goal. (For one, I'll say the troop sacrifice was unnecessary.)
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Old 2009-06-01, 20:04   Link #8540
bladeofdarkness
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And I'm talking about the ultimate motivation behind those acts. Not that I necessarily agree with the acts themselves.

The motivation behind those acts was for himself to become hated by the whole world, and not just by Kallen or Nunnally. The real question is whether any of those acts he carried out were unnecessary for his final goal. (For one, I'll say the troop sacrifice was unnecessary.)
every character in the history of fiction has a MOTIVE
having a motive alone does not make a character likable you know

in the final arc lelouch is basiclly a villain in the vains of leto II, treize, and Ozymandias
all did things that THEY deemed as necessary, but that in no way makes them any less monsterus
but since he is also the protagonist, the writers want to keep him LIKABLE
and making sure that non of the likable characters get killed by his crazy plan is a good way to achive that
would you still like him if nunnaly died ?
a simple yes or no please
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