AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Code Geass

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-06-01, 20:12   Link #8541
FruitsPunchSamurai
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Los Angelas, California
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
fandumb and the ability of viewers to misunderstand what the story tellers are aiming at becouse a character looks "cool" will always be around
but look at it from a story telling POV
remove lelouch's draco in leather pants status from the picture
and what you are left with a character who behaves like a complete monster during the entire final arc
between using women and children as human shields, mind raping untold thousends, sacrificing many of his own soldiers in tactics that show complete lack of care for human life, and telling nunnaly that she stands as an example of everything he hates and despises
lelouch is already very close to the edge of becoming a totally unlikable douchbag himself
where once he was walking the thin line between hero and villain, he is WELL past the point of no return now
he may never have really been a "hero", but he was at least LIKABLE becouse he had people who he interacted with that MADE him likeable (nunnaly most of all)
in the final arc he ends up turning those people into his enemies in the most brutal way that can be
which is why he needs all the help he can GET to be able to stay likable
making sure that almost no named character died becouse of his shit
and that they all get happy endings becouse of him
goes a long way to make him likable again
What you say is very true but at the same token not what I'm talking about. He never gave out any vibes that he wanted any of them to live (except for Kallen) and him blowing up Mt. Fuji thereby wiping out the majority of forces and sinking the OOBK ship proves my point, if there's anyone who's responsible for the OOBK and many other characters avoided death it's Okouchi's writing since in Turn 23 death flags were all over the place and we were all trolled in Turn 24 when Diethard was the only one the die. And it's funny that you mention all those acts since alot of fans applauded him for his misdeeds in that span.
FruitsPunchSamurai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 20:17   Link #8542
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
then were not really disagreeing at all
actually what i WAS talking about was that the writers made him more likable by not letting most characters die
i'm not talking about IN universe
i'm talking about the writing stand point

lelouch himself didnt show much care about who he was hurting
which is part of what i say makes him less likable
but Okouchi's writing saved him from becoming a bigger douch for it by handing out plot armor like its christmas
which was what i was getting at

and while many people did cheer, they only cheered becouse lelouch looks cool while doing it
any person who thinks about it for more then two seconds would see the flaw in saying "cool, lelouch is using children as human shields"
or "cool, lelouch just turned thousends of people into sock puppets"
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 20:18   Link #8543
FruitsPunchSamurai
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Los Angelas, California
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
then were not really disagreeing at all
actually what i WAS talking about was that the writers made him more likable by not letting most characters die
i'm not talking about IN universe
i'm talking about the writing stand point

lelouch himself didnt show much care about who he was hurting
which is part of what i say makes him less likable
but Okouchi's writing saved him from becoming a bigger douch for it by handing out plot armor like its christmas

and while many people did cheer, they only cheered becouse lelouch looks cool while doing it
any person who thinks about it for more then two seconds would see the flaw in saying "cool, lelouch is using children as human shields"
or "cool, lelouch just turned thousends of people into sock puppets"
Well can't argue with that, glad we're on the same page
FruitsPunchSamurai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 20:20   Link #8544
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai View Post
Well can't argue with that, glad we're on the same page
yeah
its good to know we just wasted all that time and came a few steps closer to developing carple tunnel syndrome
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 20:24   Link #8545
FruitsPunchSamurai
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Los Angelas, California
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
yeah
its good to know we just wasted all that time and came a few steps closer to developing carple tunnel syndrome
Sad but very funny at the same
When is this thread gonna be about Suzaku again?
FruitsPunchSamurai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 20:28   Link #8546
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
For the sake of full disclosure: I'm right in the middle in terms of how I view Lelouch and his actions from a moral standpoint.

If he ended up killing Nunnally, it would depend on whether or not her death turned out to be unnecessary in terms of accomplishing the final goal. Would I still be sad? Yes. Would I hate him if it had to be done? No, assuming he wouldn't be totally rash about it. Thankfully, given that he only faced off directly against her right at the end, and his one and only goal was to secure FLEIJA, he did nothing more than Geass her into handing it over. And from that point on he didn't have to make anymore violent threats he would have to follow through with.

Besides, had he become a complete monster, would he even say that one line to C. C. about too many people already dying since the start, and how for their sakes he had to carry his plan through to the end? If he either never said it, or said it but didn't mean it, that would mean he wouldn't care one way or the other about the actions or the results. Given their relationship and history throughout the show, he would have accomplished nothing by saying anything insincere to C. C..
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 20:31   Link #8547
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
ok then

suzaku's live geass
good, or bad

the good part is that improves his combat abilities considerably and insures that he cant commit suicide

the bad part is that it forces him to protect HIMSELF above all else
and considering that he seems to have became nunnaly's guardian, i'd say that it has the potential of causing him to end up saving himself rather then protecting her (I.E, he cant try and take a bullet for her)
the live geass after all forces him to live under conditions were he would normally value OTHER things over his own life (ep 18 provided an excellent example of that)

so what im asking is
is it a good thing ultimately
or does its downsides make it less then valuable
it makes him stronger
but even WITHOUT it he is beyond amazing both on foot and in a knightmare
so is it really worth it (considering that he now has the ability to remove it altogether)

@azul120
he was BEHAVING like a complete monster
he wasnt really one
but he was very much a villain at that stage
necessary evil villain
but villain non the less
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 20:35   Link #8548
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Technical villain then.
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 20:37   Link #8549
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
a Technical villain in motive
and complete monster in action
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 20:50   Link #8550
morbosfist
Spinning Lotus
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
suzaku's live geass
good, or bad

the good part is that improves his combat abilities considerably and insures that he cant commit suicide

the bad part is that it forces him to protect HIMSELF above all else
and considering that he seems to have became nunnaly's guardian, i'd say that it has the potential of causing him to end up saving himself rather then protecting her (I.E, he cant try and take a bullet for her)
the live geass after all forces him to live under conditions were he would normally value OTHER things over his own life (ep 18 provided an excellent example of that)

so what im asking is
is it a good thing ultimately
or does its downsides make it less then valuable
it makes him stronger
but even WITHOUT it he is beyond amazing both on foot and in a knightmare
so is it really worth it (considering that he now has the ability to remove it altogether)
Good when he had a half-assed idea for freeing Japan, because it kept him from throwing away his progress at the first chance. It's more a liability now, since he's a bodyguard.
__________________
morbosfist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 21:08   Link #8551
ria1414
Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Chicago, Illinois
As much as I love Suzaku, I will agree that he does have the house slave mentality, but he's just a kid, and can't be blamed LOL. But on a serious note, Suzaku is a idealist, it's just that I don't believe he can accomplish his goal working in the Britannia Military. The only way he may be able to make any changes is if he was part of the royal family, which he is not, so being an Britannia soldier is just a waste of time. However, his complex ideas provide viewers with much entertainment as we don't just see him as a soldier without a conscious trying to annihiale anyone that crosses his path.

At first, I was kind of stunned to see Lelouch was more than willing to kill someone (Britannia or not), which made Suzaku look more like a saint compared to him, but war is not pretty and sometimes lives must be taken, which brings me to another question. We know Suzuaku doesn't want to kill anyone, so why become a soldier in the first place?
ria1414 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 21:12   Link #8552
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Yeah. Hughes from FMA in a way had it right when he decided to take a bureaucratic job within the military in order to accomplish things without getting any blood on his hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness
a Technical villain in motive
and complete monster in action
Complete monster on the outside. I don't think he would have been believable otherwise as the world's biggest monster.
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 21:12   Link #8553
Orga777
TRUE! Lelouch is dead! XD
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New Jersey
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Good when he had a half-assed idea for freeing Japan, because it kept him from throwing away his progress at the first chance. It's more a liability now, since he's a bodyguard.
So half-assed that Lelouch ended up changing Britannia from the inside at the end of things eh? Granted it was more of a hybrid of their thoughts, but the fact remains, he only really pulled it off so well because it was from the inside. XP

As for the "LIVE" Geass. It is bad. Suzaku is inherently a very selfless person. He would sacrifice himself for any one of his friends if need be, even if he DIDN'T have a death wish I would still see him doing that. The "LIVE" Geass, as blade pointed out, makes him selfish by protecting himself over all else. It resulted in a FLEIA being fired when Suzaku didn't even plan on using it to begin with.

Lelouch's Geass in general is bad really. It takes away free will from any single person. It is an absolute command that CANNOT be disobeyed no matter how much someone fights it. Lelouch is like a Dictator giving out commands when he uses his Geass. It is the worst of the four that we saw in this series. (Between Charles, Mao, and Bismarck.)
Orga777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 21:18   Link #8554
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
So half-assed that Lelouch ended up changing Britannia from the inside at the end of things eh? Granted it was more of a hybrid of their thoughts, but the fact remains, he only really pulled it off so well because it was from the inside. XP

As for the "LIVE" Geass. It is bad. Suzaku is inherently a very selfless person. He would sacrifice himself for any one of his friends if need be, even if he DIDN'T have a death wish I would still see him doing that. The "LIVE" Geass, as blade pointed out, makes him selfish by protecting himself over all else. It resulted in a FLEIA being fired when Suzaku didn't even plan on using it to begin with.

Lelouch's Geass in general is bad really. It takes away free will from any single person. It is an absolute command that CANNOT be disobeyed no matter how much someone fights it. Lelouch is like a Dictator giving out commands when he uses his Geass. It is the worst of the four that we saw in this series. (Between Charles, Mao, and Bismarck.)
The Charles thing is potentially up there, because it involves rewriting someone else's memories against their will.

That Lelouch's Geass is so bad, at least depending on the ramifications, is evidently one of the reasons why Lelouch chose death as atonement.
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 21:34   Link #8555
morbosfist
Spinning Lotus
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
So half-assed that Lelouch ended up changing Britannia from the inside at the end of things eh? Granted it was more of a hybrid of their thoughts, but the fact remains, he only really pulled it off so well because it was from the inside. XP
Lelouch used his whole ass, Suzaku did not. "I'll become Knight of One and everything will be sunshine and daises," is about as half-assed as you can get. Lelouch tore Britannia apart. Wasn't so much changing from within as making an entirely new system from the remains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
As for the "LIVE" Geass. It is bad. Suzaku is inherently a very selfless person. He would sacrifice himself for any one of his friends if need be, even if he DIDN'T have a death wish I would still see him doing that. The "LIVE" Geass, as blade pointed out, makes him selfish by protecting himself over all else. It resulted in a FLEIA being fired when Suzaku didn't even plan on using it to begin with.
Half the time Suzaku isn't sacrificing his life for his friends, he's just sacrificing his life because he's a masochist. In line with his poorly thought-out goals, such an attitude is for the most part unacceptable. The command results in tragedy, to be sure, but Suzaku has no one but himself to blame for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ria1414 View Post
We know Suzuaku doesn't want to kill anyone, so why become a soldier in the first place?
Because he's stupid. He treats it as repentance and a way to get himself killed, somehow believing all the while that he can prevent death. He blinds himself to the obvious.
__________________
morbosfist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 22:27   Link #8556
Kid Ying
Pon pon pon
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Rio
Quote:
Originally Posted by ria1414 View Post
As much as I love Suzaku, I will agree that he does have the house slave mentality, but he's just a kid, and can't be blamed LOL. But on a serious note, Suzaku is a idealist, it's just that I don't believe he can accomplish his goal working in the Britannia Military. The only way he may be able to make any changes is if he was part of the royal family, which he is not, so being an Britannia soldier is just a waste of time. However, his complex ideas provide viewers with much entertainment as we don't just see him as a soldier without a conscious trying to annihiale anyone that crosses his path.

At first, I was kind of stunned to see Lelouch was more than willing to kill someone (Britannia or not), which made Suzaku look more like a saint compared to him, but war is not pretty and sometimes lives must be taken, which brings me to another question. We know Suzuaku doesn't want to kill anyone, so why become a soldier in the first place?
I think it was to protect the peace that started with the death of his father. It was a heavy burden for him, so i guess he didn't wanted to see that going down the flush because of some petty fight. Besides, he still wanted to fix things up and there's no way for a japanese to gain status out of the military(and no way to gain status inside either, we all saw that Suzaku suffered a lot before all the fight with Zero and he getting together with Euphemia, where he finally could show his skills), so he got some reasons for him.
Kid Ying is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 22:28   Link #8557
snowdevil_crow
Wielder of Cucumbers
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Canada
Nah, Lelouch definitely shares some blame for that.

He should have taken Suzaku's threat more seriously and not let his emotions take a hold of him the way they did in that fight. He should have been thinking. Honestly, why tell someone to kill the guy who's a) carrying a nuke and b) been commanded by you to live no matter what?

In fact, I'd say he gets most of it. Maybe Suzaku should have tried harder to either not take the bomb into battle, or to convince Lelouch that he hadn't betrayed him, but honestly, Lelouch's actions throughout that whole second Black Rebellion episode were really, really stupid. I couldn't stand him in that episode.
snowdevil_crow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 22:49   Link #8558
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
I will agree that Lelouch screwed the pooch by ordering Suzaku be killed in light of the fact that he still had the "live" Geass command.

That still doesn't change the way Schneizel and Kanon manipulated them both.
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 22:50   Link #8559
snowdevil_crow
Wielder of Cucumbers
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Canada
Definitely not. Schneizel and Kanon are douches.:/
snowdevil_crow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-01, 23:05   Link #8560
morbosfist
Spinning Lotus
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow View Post
He should have taken Suzaku's threat more seriously and not let his emotions take a hold of him the way they did in that fight. He should have been thinking. Honestly, why tell someone to kill the guy who's a) carrying a nuke and b) been commanded by you to live no matter what?
No commander would ever take such a grandiose claim seriously. It's the equivalent of someone in our world saying they'll vaporize an entire country with a Kill Sat if we don't surrender. Weapons like FLEIJA are not taken seriously until they are used. Even in a rational state of mind, Lelouch would have dismissed him as a liar. Even if he thought the claim was true, which is unlikely, he would immediately assume Suzaku would not fire it (he knows Suzaku wouldn't) and have his ass captured post-haste. Then you get the same problem.

Second, killing Suzaku was a sure thing as far as he knew. Suzaku could not stand up to Kallen. He was getting shredded, and sooner or later he'd have died.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow View Post
In fact, I'd say he gets most of it. Maybe Suzaku should have tried harder to either not take the bomb into battle, or to convince Lelouch that he hadn't betrayed him, but honestly, Lelouch's actions throughout that whole second Black Rebellion episode were really, really stupid. I couldn't stand him in that episode.
Lelouch is hardly responsible for most of it. He did not choose to deploy the bomb, he didn't make it, didn't know it existed until Suzaku gave an empty and quite unbelievable threat, and consequently had no idea Suzaku would fire it at the government complex. On the other hand, Suzaku had every choice in equipping it, decided to take it into a large population center filled with civilians, and knew damn well that his death wish would result in his Geass activating. Suzaku carries a major portion of the blame.

Somewhat off-topic, how exactly were Lelouch's actions throughout the entire second rebellion stupid? Explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
I will agree that Lelouch screwed the pooch by ordering Suzaku be killed in light of the fact that he still had the "live" Geass command.

That still doesn't change the way Schneizel and Kanon manipulated them both.
As I note above, it was Kallen. Command or not, he was dead. Just bad luck that he had the super-bomb. The second part is true.
__________________
morbosfist is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.