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Old 2009-07-06, 19:14   Link #8701
Kid Ying
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I thought Suzaku was going to get crazy at the end of the series. In fact, i think he already was a shonen hero when everything started. He wasn't like Kenshin. Kenshin in the not that good ol' days didn't liked it, but killed. A. LOT. Suzaku was more of a "i'm not going to kill even if i die", so, when you're already in the top of the shonen qualification, there's only one way: Dowhill.
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Old 2009-07-06, 19:17   Link #8702
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I thought Suzaku was gonna kill Lelouch and be a batshit crazy guy by the end of the series, from the very beginning.

Mostly because I heard CLAMP designed the characters. XD
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Old 2009-07-07, 00:11   Link #8703
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Suzaku was batshit crazy to begin with. All of his shonen-hero tendencies seem to stem from the ridiculous deathwish he developed as a result of killing his own father.

If he had never killed Prime Minister Kururugi, Suzaku would have had his head on a lot straighter. Probably would have not put on the blinders to Britannia's evil, and likely would have been fighting along with Kallen in the resistance.
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Old 2009-07-07, 06:12   Link #8704
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Suzaku was batshit crazy to begin with. All of his shonen-hero tendencies seem to stem from the ridiculous deathwish he developed as a result of killing his own father.

If he had never killed Prime Minister Kururugi, Suzaku would have had his head on a lot straighter. Probably would have not put on the blinders to Britannia's evil, and likely would have been fighting along with Kallen in the resistance.
There wouldn't be a resistance. Japan would have been torn apart and the Japanese people as a polity would have been destroyed by the three-way war that would have occured had Suzaku not killed his father and the war gone on long enough to allow the other two powers to intervene. Had that happened, there wouldn't be any foreign support supplying nightmare technology to the resistance, and everyone would be claiming as much of Japan as they could for themselves.

Hell, you could even argue that the intervention of others could have completely altered Kallen's allegiance. No surrender means her brother never has a chance years later to run a ramshackle resistance, while her father would likely have tried to keep his family safer. And if any other faction besides Britannia (Europe, China, or even especially Japanese remnants) got him killed, then you could easily envision her connecting to her Statfield-half.
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Old 2009-07-07, 11:10   Link #8705
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
There wouldn't be a resistance. Japan would have been torn apart and the Japanese people as a polity would have been destroyed by the three-way war that would have occured had Suzaku not killed his father and the war gone on long enough to allow the other two powers to intervene. Had that happened, there wouldn't be any foreign support supplying nightmare technology to the resistance, and everyone would be claiming as much of Japan as they could for themselves.

Hell, you could even argue that the intervention of others could have completely altered Kallen's allegiance. No surrender means her brother never has a chance years later to run a ramshackle resistance, while her father would likely have tried to keep his family safer. And if any other faction besides Britannia (Europe, China, or even especially Japanese remnants) got him killed, then you could easily envision her connecting to her Statfield-half.

Yeah fighting britannia is one thing but fighting all three powers would have been a disaster for japan simply put they didn't not have the means to fight three super powers at once. even lelouch strategies wouldn't work.

and yes kallen alliagance might have shifted she might have ended up in Britannia possibly as knight of the rounds as gino once said
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Old 2009-07-07, 22:35   Link #8706
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It's not necessarily true that would have happened. It's mentioned by one character, but honestly what would Minister Kururugi have done?

Asked his people to commit suicide by cop--er, Britannian?

No. He would have swallowed his pride, made a big show of capitulating to Britannia's demands, but would have ensured there was one hell of a stronger backing for any resistance force. There's absolutely no way Japan could have won the fight against Britannia and I'm sure his generals would have explained that to him.

So the central government of Japan goes to ground, the resistance always exists and is never ramshackle.

Britannia winning the war was never in question. They had more troops, more guns and more money. But by killing his father, Suzaku ensured that the resistance would be so weak that Britannian rule would be virtually unchallenged. At least until Zero came along...
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Old 2009-07-08, 06:48   Link #8707
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
It's not necessarily true that would have happened. It's mentioned by one character,
The most intelligent character in the show, but more importantly it's a case of 'fictional alternative'. When a major character says that if 'a' had changed then 'b' would have resulted, it can nearly always be accepted as fact. So when the lead protagonist of the show, a military and political prodigy, says that the war would have seen the rest of the world intervene and Japan torn apart had the war gone on any longer, you can take his word.


Quote:
but honestly what would Minister Kururugi have done?

Asked his people to commit suicide by cop--er, Britannian?
That's exactly what he was intending to do. Side material as early as Season 1 made clear that, having failed to get away with playing the three powers against eachother on the assumption that none would risk invading, Minister Kururugi was going to fight to the bitter end and take Japan down with him. Suicide by Britannia was exactly what he was intending.

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Old 2009-07-08, 07:17   Link #8708
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
The most intelligent character in the show, but more importantly it's a case of 'fictional alternative'. When a major character says that if 'a' had changed then 'b' would have resulted, it can nearly always be accepted as fact. So when the lead protagonist of the show, a military and political prodigy, says that the war would have seen the rest of the world intervene and Japan torn apart had the war gone on any longer, you can take his word.
Didn't Lelouch say that to Suzaku after his best friend just had a complete breakdown in front of him because of the guilt?
Looking at the context, it might have been an exaggeration.

Hm... the thing is, we don't know what kind of person Genbu really was, do we?
For example, in the Light Novel, he planned to let Japan be crushed because Kirihara had too much power. He wanted to hand the country to Britannia on a silver plate so that he could become governor afterwards.
Now, the Light Novels aren't canon, but Stage 0 seems pretty close, and even if that aspect was purely the writer's own interpretation, I still can't remember any side materials contradicting it, which would mean that anything is possible.
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Old 2009-07-08, 07:26   Link #8709
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but the whole reason suzaku killed him was because he WOULDN'T surrender even at the cost of destroying japan

doesnt that COMPLETELY contredict what you just posted from the novel ?
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Old 2009-07-08, 07:43   Link #8710
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
but the whole reason suzaku killed him was because he WOULDN'T surrender even at the cost of destroying japan

doesnt that COMPLETELY contredict what you just posted from the novel ?
Uhm, no, because in the novel, Genbu wanted Britannia to crush Japan. I meant that quite literally.
They all knew continuing the fight was pointless, but while Kirihara later on came up with the suicide story to make Japan go down with a bang and a lot of reserves still in tact, Genbu wanted this war because it would have destroyed Kirihara and truly left him the most powerful man in Japan due to his connections to, for example, those who wanted to get rid of Lelouch and Nunally.
For that, he would happily have become a "dog of Britannia".
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Old 2009-07-08, 12:19   Link #8711
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The Stage 0 explanation of Genbu Kururugi's conduct makes an awful lot of sense looking at the events of the show.
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Old 2009-07-09, 23:40   Link #8712
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And happy birthday to Suzaku. Going by my computer's time which is 12:40 AM EST.
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Old 2009-07-09, 23:44   Link #8713
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whoohooo!

In honour of Suzaku's birthday, which hasn't arrived where I live (just over an hour away...!), I would like to say: Suzaku, you magnificent hypocritical crazy messed up sweet lovable sexy masochistic beast, have a happy birthday. You have been shown an undeserved amount of hate from the fandom, but you will always have a few loyal fans and not-haters who will recognize the awesomeness of your character. <3
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Old 2009-07-09, 23:51   Link #8714
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Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow View Post
whoohooo!

In honour of Suzaku's birthday, which hasn't arrived where I live (just over an hour away...!), I would like to say: Suzaku, you magnificent hypocritical crazy messed up sweet lovable sexy masochistic beast, have a happy birthday. You have been shown an undeserved amount of hate from the fandom, but you will always have a few loyal fans and not-haters who will recognize the awesomeness of your character. <3
Like me, which is why I totally spazzed and rushed my reply so I could be first to wish him his birthday.
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Old 2009-07-10, 00:12   Link #8715
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Well, it's officially July 10th where I am so...

Happy Birthday Suzaku! You masochistic son of a bitch!

LOL, nah seriously, I feel for ya bro. I'd say that Suzaku is definitely one of the characters that had to put up with some of the biggest sh*t in Code Geass. So here's to Suzaku for persevering through and through (more or less)
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Old 2009-07-10, 00:22   Link #8716
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you spin me right round baby right round like a record baby right round round round

from one of the rare fans who like both Lelouch and Suzaku...

happy birthday spinzaku!
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Old 2009-07-11, 08:25   Link #8717
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wut, so now it's Suzaku's birthday too. lol 'k whatever, happy belated birthday Suzaku (six and a half hours late in my time zone).

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Suzaku was batshit crazy to begin with. All of his shonen-hero tendencies seem to stem from the ridiculous deathwish he developed as a result of killing his own father.

If he had never killed Prime Minister Kururugi, Suzaku would have had his head on a lot straighter. Probably would have not put on the blinders to Britannia's evil, and likely would have been fighting along with Kallen in the resistance.
I disagree. Suzaku had his head on straight enough. It wasn't so much killing his father that doomed him to a life of self-punishment, it was the loss of Euphie.

Also, it's pretty much a given that ending a war sooner = less people dead. I don't see how it's possible that Suzaku killing his father could have left Japan weaker from a post-war standpoint. Even if we don't get into the whole 'three superpowers slaughtering each other for scraps of Japan' scenario, which would have destroyed Japan's citizenry, Genbu's early death certainly left more of Japan's military in tact. That means more remnants to go underground, and a stronger post-war resistance.


Lemme ask something I still haven't really straightened out, though. What exactly was it about the aftermath of Genbu's death that Suzaku regretted? What actually made him feel he was wrong? Was it simply the reality of having killed someone with his own hands? I really don't think that was it, 'cause it simply does not make sense from all sorts of perspectives. Rather, I think the trigger for Suzaku's feelings of guilt was from the act of having broken the 'rules' of obeying his father and the root of those feelings of guilt was in him somehow failing to save the lives of innocent people. After all, during the hoteljack incident, Suzaku's 'crazy' reaction was "it's happening again..." So what I'm really trying to figure out here is: how did Suzaku's killing of his father lead to innocent deaths, moreso than would have occurred if he hadn't killed him? Japan's loss was a foregone conclusion, so why would he regret hastening its surrender?
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Old 2009-07-11, 10:26   Link #8718
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Lemme ask something I still haven't really straightened out, though. What exactly was it about the aftermath of Genbu's death that Suzaku regretted? What actually made him feel he was wrong? Was it simply the reality of having killed someone with his own hands? I really don't think that was it, 'cause it simply does not make sense from all sorts of perspectives. Rather, I think the trigger for Suzaku's feelings of guilt was from the act of having broken the 'rules' of obeying his father and the root of those feelings of guilt was in him somehow failing to save the lives of innocent people. After all, during the hoteljack incident, Suzaku's 'crazy' reaction was "it's happening again..." So what I'm really trying to figure out here is: how did Suzaku's killing of his father lead to innocent deaths, moreso than would have occurred if he hadn't killed him? Japan's loss was a foregone conclusion, so why would he regret hastening its surrender?
Not only is it simply the reality of killing someone, it's that he was not punished in the least for it. If anything, they likely praised him. Thus, he took up a "violence is bad" stance and joined up with Britannia as his way of punishing himself.
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Old 2009-07-12, 01:55   Link #8719
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Uhm, no, because in the novel, Genbu wanted Britannia to crush Japan. I meant that quite literally.
They all knew continuing the fight was pointless, but while Kirihara later on came up with the suicide story to make Japan go down with a bang and a lot of reserves still in tact, Genbu wanted this war because it would have destroyed Kirihara and truly left him the most powerful man in Japan due to his connections to, for example, those who wanted to get rid of Lelouch and Nunally.
For that, he would happily have become a "dog of Britannia".
How would this work? If Genbu kept the war going, it would cost more Britannian lives, more Britannian resources, and risk intervention from the Chinese Federation and EU, meaning Britannia could end up without complete control of Japan, or ANY of Japan in the end. I don't see how these connections would want this, when they could just make an agreement of "You kill Lelouch and Nunally and surrender, then we'll make up some B.S. charges and execute Kirihara."

@Sol and morbosfist: I think it was also that the killing didn't stop once Genbu died. Britannia swooped in and decimated Japan and people still suffered. Suzaku was never the type to sit down and think "Okay, alot of people are suffering because of what I did, but realistically more would be suffering if I hadn't acted." In fact, I'm skeptical if he ever realized this until years later (and even if he did, he knew that those weren't the reasons he acted). Suzaku basically put together in his mind that he broke a rule and millions suffered as a result, without ever considering that what he did really was the best thing for Japan in the overall sense. Looking around at all the suffering of his people it would be pretty hard to say "It's okay, they're actually better off since I killed my father in a hissy fit."
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Old 2009-07-12, 02:10   Link #8720
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@Sol and morbosfist: I think it was also that the killing didn't stop once Genbu died. Britannia swooped in and decimated Japan and people still suffered. Suzaku was never the type to sit down and think "Okay, alot of people are suffering because of what I did, but realistically more would be suffering if I hadn't acted." In fact, I'm skeptical if he ever realized this until years later (and even if he did, he knew that those weren't the reasons he acted). Suzaku basically put together in his mind that he broke a rule and millions suffered as a result, without ever considering that what he did really was the best thing for Japan in the overall sense. Looking around at all the suffering of his people it would be pretty hard to say "It's okay, they're actually better off since I killed my father in a hissy fit."
The killing didn't stop immediately, but the result was pretty quick. They would have announced his death within a day, surrender within the week, and within a month occupation forces wouldn't be facing much if any resistance.

What happened with Suzaku is that he killed his father and was pretty much rewarded for it. He sees it as a good thing that his murder brought peace, since he's quick enough to shoot his mouth off about the peace his father made, but how he gained that peace eats at him.
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