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Old 2009-10-13, 11:54   Link #9081
bladeofdarkness
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my comment was about HollowScar statement that he keeps screwing up lulu's plans
in THAT case its not just his skill, but also the complete tech advantage he has over most enemies

as for this part
Quote:
Now I know how you people ramble about him going around kicking other nations' butts but let's be clear about one thing. His objective was to help the japanese people, as Mao would put it the guy's selfish so of course the Japanese would come first before the French. He's working his way up to the Knight of One.
he basiclly ENSLAVES OTHER NATIONS to britannia's will in the hopes that when the entire world is treated the way japan is treated now, he would get to rule japan
his way of "improving" the lives of the japanese people first requires him to destroy the lives of all the people of many other countries
he actively helps Britannia to oppress others, and calls those people who fight against this oppression criminals
thats QUITE the hypocrisy from a man who claims that he doesnt want to use "wrong" means
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Old 2009-10-13, 11:58   Link #9082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
my comment was about HollowScar statement that he keeps screwing up lulu's plans
in THAT case its not just his skill, but also the complete tech advantage he has over most enemies
Some tech advantage. After that first battle the Guren came into place, which allowed Kallen to fight Suzaku equally, and in those places, Lelouch's plans still got ruined.

Quote:
he basiclly ENSLAVES OTHER NATIONS to britannia's will in the hopes that when the entire world is treated the way japan is treated now, he would get to rule japan
his way of "improving" the lives of the japanese people first requires him to destroy the lives of all the people of many other countries
thats QUITE the hypocrisy from a man who claims that he doesnt want to use "wrong" means
Yeah what part of the "Selfish" did you not get? I thought I was clear on that?
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Old 2009-10-13, 12:01   Link #9083
bladeofdarkness
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not "selfish"
hypocritical

and other then the guren, it takes a VERY long time before the black knights get something on the same level of the lancelot
everyone else is stuck using burai
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Old 2009-10-13, 12:04   Link #9084
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To be a hypocrite, Suzaku would need to preach one thing and do the other at the same time.
This was the case during most of R2, but, unless I missed something, not during Zero Requiem.
...And I'm not even sure which one we're talking about. xD
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Old 2009-10-13, 12:05   Link #9085
bladeofdarkness
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the final fight with kallen
suzaku goes WAY past the point of doing the wrong thing and working outside the system (actually breaking the system)
and yet criticizes her for not going along with the system

though thats more a case of motive decay

and we were mostly talking about before zero-requiem
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Old 2009-10-13, 12:06   Link #9086
SoldierOfDarkness
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Yeesh, there's no way in heck I could've been the only guy who saw the parts where Suzaku/Lelouch kept rambling about Japan being the "world"

Everything that Suzaku rambled about was all about Japan, to him that world was "Japan".

I mean how the heck could you guys get so confused over that? How can you be so shocked when it was all about Japan to begin with?

Quote:
To be a hypocrite, Suzaku would need to preach one thing and do the other at the same time.
This was the case during most of R2, but, unless I missed something, not during Zero Requiem.
...And I'm not even sure which one we're talking about. xD
I gave my two cents about the whole situation. That Suzaku was a selfish guy who fought only for his own gains and happiness. In the end he gives that up so that the world can be happy.

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and other then the guren, it takes a VERY long time before the black knights get something on the same level of the lancelot
????? Guren appeared in episode 10, by that point the Lancelot was only engaged in one battle against lelouch. By that point Guren and Lancelot fought each other to a standstill, cancelling each other out. Lelouch's armie had machines that could handle Britannia's armor on an equal footing.

I mean it's not that wide as a gap like the Chinese knightmares and the Black Knights.
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Old 2009-10-13, 12:14   Link #9087
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the whole point i was making was a response to HollowScar saying that suzaku is able to destroy not all that much into it really

and its not that its all about japan
its about him enslaving others, then calling people who oppose this oppression criminals
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Old 2009-10-13, 12:16   Link #9088
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Suzaku still believed that following the establishment was the right thing to do but since he realized it caused pain he sided with Lelouch's plan anyway despite not wanting to deep inside. Basically he acknowledged that his way of doing things wasn't working and followed a different idea but he still believed his way of doing things was the "right" thing to do.

If you notice in the final debate between Lelouch/Suzaku and Nunally/Kallen despite being allied against each other Lelouch is unknowingly agreeing with Kallen and Nunally is unknowingly agreeing with Suzaku.
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Old 2009-10-13, 12:19   Link #9089
bladeofdarkness
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except that his "system" theory was based on his not wanting to use the "wrong methods"
which is exactly what he was doing at the time of the last fight
how can he criticizes others for it if he behaves even worse
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Old 2009-10-13, 16:21   Link #9090
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Okay, about conquering France being 'enslavement'. In the first place, the number system has nothing to do with slavery. Slaves are property; Honourary Britannians are second-class citizens. Eleven's might be third class citizens; regardless, under the number system nobody is 'owned' by another or forced to do something they don't want to do.

Second. Please note that the number system is a system of colonization. It is a system which establishes citizen classes for territories being developed for Britannian settlement. The thing is, Britannia never tries to colonize the Chinese Federation or the EU. In fact, the conflict with France ended with a peace treaty; simply put, Britannia doesn't even have enough of a population to properly colonize the entire world in the manner of Japan. You should also note that the CF and EU have been at war with Britannia since forever. Britannia's military actions against them aren't unprovoked, it is a matter of national security.

Claiming that Suzaku's participation in Britannia's worldwide military efforts is equivalent to enslavement is just bullshit. We all know that the number system was developed by Charles to pursue Geass ruins in the first place. It is designed for occupation and colonization on a smaller scale. There was never any chance of i.e. France becoming something ridiculous like Area 20 in the first place. This incredible exaggeration has gone on long enough.
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Old 2009-10-13, 16:31   Link #9091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
except that his "system" theory was based on his not wanting to use the "wrong methods"
which is exactly what he was doing at the time of the last fight
how can he criticizes others for it if he behaves even worse
Um, you missed the part where he criticized people, after ZR? OH WAIT, there was no such scene, yeah.
You need to distinguish the difference between before-after. Obviously Suzaku saw his methods were worse than crap in order to achieve what he wanted, because playing fair =/= getting what i want.
With his fair-play, he got a lot of people killed actually, serving a rotten government like Britannia.
So he did his own shit with ZR, and accepted the role of Zero. And there goes period.
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Old 2009-10-13, 16:36   Link #9092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Okay, about conquering France being 'enslavement'. In the first place, the number system has nothing to do with slavery. Slaves are property; Honourary Britannians are second-class citizens. Eleven's might be third class citizens; regardless, under the number system nobody is 'owned' by another or forced to do something they don't want to do.
I shouldn't bother to point out Turn 1 then. They may not be slaves by law, but they might as well be.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Second. Please note that the number system is a system of colonization. It is a system which establishes citizen classes for territories being developed for Britannian settlement. The thing is, Britannia never tries to colonize the Chinese Federation or the EU. In fact, the conflict with France ended with a peace treaty; simply put, Britannia doesn't even have enough of a population to properly colonize the entire world in the manner of Japan. You should also note that the CF and EU have been at war with Britannia since forever. Britannia's military actions against them aren't unprovoked, it is a matter of national security.
The conflict with France, EU territory, only ended after the EU had already lost half their territory to Schneizel. It wasn't a tie or anything. Schneizel just likes using force as leverage in diplomacy.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Claiming that Suzaku's participation in Britannia's worldwide military efforts is equivalent to enslavement is just bullshit. We all know that the number system was developed by Charles to pursue Geass ruins in the first place. It is designed for occupation and colonization on a smaller scale. There was never any chance of i.e. France becoming something ridiculous like Area 20 in the first place. This incredible exaggeration has gone on long enough.
This is wrong for several reasons. I do not know where you're pulling this nonsense from, but it has no basis in reality. First, it was said that several of Charles recent campaigns (not all) were to secure the ruins. Second, there are only eight ruins and 18 areas, so obviously his conquests are not bound under a single goal. Three, any conquered area is renamed as Area ##, and that would include every recent conquest throughout Europe. Suzaku's efforts were contributing to the enslavement of these areas, and they specifically make note that he is acting of his own accord in doing this. He isn't being ordered to do anything. He's attacking nations that are trying to remain free (and succeeding) just to win favor with the Emperor.
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Old 2009-10-13, 16:39   Link #9093
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by peekaydee View Post
Um, you missed the part where he criticized people, after ZR? OH WAIT, there was no such scene, yeah.
You need to distinguish the difference between before-after. Obviously Suzaku saw his methods were worse than crap in order to achieve what he wanted, because playing fair =/= getting what i want.
With his fair-play, he got a lot of people killed actually, serving a rotten government like Britannia.
So he did his own shit with ZR, and accepted the role of Zero. And there goes period.
how about DURING
i was talking about his fight with kallen in which he accuses her of not going along with the system

@Sol
what makes you think the areas conquered in the EU dont become areas like japan did ?
japan is a nation of about 100 million people,
didnt stop it from being turned into just one single area
and i was talking enslavement as in "forcing people to become third class citizens in their own country
with the promise that if they work hard at it, they might be promoted to second class citizens
like what happened to the Japanese
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Old 2009-10-13, 16:40   Link #9094
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
how about DURING
i was talking about his fight with kallen in which he accuses her of not going along with the system
How about stop hating ZR concept and spilling it in ALL kinds of thread? And i mean, ALL. It gets annoying after a while.
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Old 2009-10-13, 16:44   Link #9095
bladeofdarkness
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actually it has to do with hypocrisy more then Z-R specifically
suzaku continues to preach the "go with the system" retoric while doing something completely different AT THE SAME TIME
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Old 2009-10-13, 16:46   Link #9096
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
except that his "system" theory was based on his not wanting to use the "wrong methods"
which is exactly what he was doing at the time of the last fight
how can he criticizes others for it if he behaves even worse
Suzaku's reason for supporting Britannia and the 'system' isn't based on not wanting to use 'wrong methods'. It's based on preservation of life. To bring peace, one side has to win: and helping Britannia has a much higher chance of success than helping rebels and terrorists. Kallen complained 'what about those who can't join the system' but what exactly did this 'can't' ever consist of? Only the fact that her brother had died fighting against it, pretty much. The only thing holding back the majority of Japanese from joining the system was petty and quite clearly baseless national pride. None of this has anything to do with 'means' or 'methods'.

The 'wrong methods' stuff comes into play with stuff like Suzaku's initial grievance against the Black Knights. Working towards a common 'end' (saving the hostages), Suzaku had an issue with the Black Knights circumventing the establishment and using the result to stroke their own egos by posturing as 'heroes of justice'. You might note that Suzaku also had problems with Zero's 'cowardly manipulation from the shadows' (i.e. Geass), and prior to Stage 23 refused to enter a battlefield filled with hate and the intent to kill. This kind of stuff is what Suzaku's 'don't use the wrong methods' mentality refers to: Suzaku rejects self-serving behaviour and demands that one should consider the consequences that one's actions might have upon others before committing them.

I.e. Blowing up a shipful of allies asking for help in order to ambush your enemy? Self-serving, underhanded bullshit, i.e. wrong methods. Cutting off one's pursuit of the enemy leader in order to save a falling civilian? Not self-serving, honourable, i.e. 'right methods'.

By the time Tokyo is Fleija'd, Suzaku's hands have been too dirtied to even hope of considering himself an honourable, self-sacrificing person, so he gives up on the 'right methods' (i.e. he betrays a lord who will not promote him; betraying a 'friend' who is a lying murdering criminal was always a different matter). However, Suzaku's support for Britannia as the stronger power who can more quickly bring peace remains as it ever did.
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Old 2009-10-13, 16:49   Link #9097
peekaydee
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
actually it has to do with hypocrisy more then Z-R specifically
suzaku continues to preach the "go with the system" retoric while doing something completely different AT THE SAME TIME
Then you missed what Suzaku meant in the last dialogue by a VERY long shot. Or, you do not actually get the subtitles meaning or something. And i am not gonna start deciphering the message of the obvious, cause srsly, nothing worse than a stubborn-biased-fan. ""

eta: Sol - Um, Kallen was not talking about herself solely, and the girl actually had a point. Britannians could shit Japanese every fucking time they wanted, and no one would ever complain. Kallen was talking about the oh-so-nice-daily treatment some Japanese got, from Brtiannians bullies. /in a general concept.
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Old 2009-10-13, 16:50   Link #9098
bladeofdarkness
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@sol
your definition of peace is quite different from what most people view it
its not peace between countires
or peace between people
its peace of the "sit down, shut up, and know your place you dog" kind
which is what everyone who isnt britannian would have suffered under the peace suzaku was working for

a LACK of fighting is NOT the same as peace
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Old 2009-10-13, 17:02   Link #9099
Sol Falling
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I shouldn't bother to point out Turn 1 then. They may not be slaves by law, but they might as well be.
After the Black Rebellion, Japan had been demoted to a 'penal colony'. It no longer even had 'area' status.

Quote:
The conflict with France, EU territory, only ended after the EU had already lost half their territory to Schneizel. It wasn't a tie or anything. Schneizel just likes using force as leverage in diplomacy.

This is wrong for several reasons. I do not know where you're pulling this nonsense from, but it has no basis in reality. First, it was said that several of Charles recent campaigns (not all) were to secure the ruins. Second, there are only eight ruins and 18 areas, so obviously his conquests are not bound under a single goal. Three, any conquered area is renamed as Area ##, and that would include every recent conquest throughout Europe. Suzaku's efforts were contributing to the enslavement of these areas, and they specifically make note that he is acting of his own accord in doing this. He isn't being ordered to do anything. He's attacking nations that are trying to remain free (and succeeding) just to win favor with the Emperor.
The point is that without enough actual Britannians to act as 'first class citizens', the 'second class citizen' distinction is meaningless. Season one points out that it is Britannian policy to have numbers govern their own people, and furthermore indicates that even numbers operate within a capitalist economy. This means that aside from taxation, except for areas with high density of Britannian settlement, occupation by Britannia is essentially meaningless. The difference between the majority of the EU and Japan is that Japan is a geographically small country with a highly condensed population. The idea that Britannia would even attempt to 'settle' all these conquered areas in the manner of Japan is, again, ridiculous.

Again, see Britannia's methods for trying to deal with the CF and EU. Peace treaties, negotiation, and political deals. Britannia has no interest in 'colonizing' everything, just in ensuring security and cooperation. The idea of enslavement, I will say again, is bullshit.
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Old 2009-10-13, 17:05   Link #9100
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Suzaku's reason for supporting Britannia and the 'system' isn't based on not wanting to use 'wrong methods'. It's based on preservation of life. To bring peace, one side has to win: and helping Britannia has a much higher chance of success than helping rebels and terrorists. Kallen complained 'what about those who can't join the system' but what exactly did this 'can't' ever consist of? Only the fact that her brother had died fighting against it, pretty much. The only thing holding back the majority of Japanese from joining the system was petty and quite clearly baseless national pride. None of this has anything to do with 'means' or 'methods'.
It is almost entirely based on that, or he wouldn't get so irritatingly put off at the Black Knights not doing it. Even in the final battle where he's doing pretty much the exact opposite, he argues with Kallen on this very point. To him it is wrong to go against the system, period, because he did that once and look what happened.

You keep going on about having a better chance and completely ignoring the piss-poor treatment anyone who isn't Britannian gets. Having a lower chance for a better gain is a good trade-off. Suzaku simply isn't willing to take that chance at the start of the series. Kallen was arguing on behalf of everyone who doesn't get a say, and that's the entire population of Japan. Suzaku is arguing from a faulty position and he knows it, which is why both times they argue, Kallen gets the last good word in and Suzaku can't counter.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The 'wrong methods' stuff comes into play with stuff like Suzaku's initial grievance against the Black Knights. Working towards a common 'end' (saving the hostages), Suzaku had an issue with the Black Knights circumventing the establishment and using the result to stroke their own egos by posturing as 'heroes of justice'. You might note that Suzaku also had problems with Zero's 'cowardly manipulation from the shadows' (i.e. Geass), and prior to Stage 23 refused to enter a battlefield filled with hate and the intent to kill. This kind of stuff is what Suzaku's 'don't use the wrong methods' mentality refers to: Suzaku rejects self-serving behaviour and demands that one should consider the consequences that one's actions might have upon others before committing them.
He was trying to demonize the Black Knights in his little conversation with Lelouch (and anywhere else for that matter). He's not willing to accept their cause because they fight the system, and so he assumes the worst of everything they do even before having a good reason to. Zero rescued him from being executed by a kangaroo court and he's about as ungrateful for it as a person can possibly get without being rude about it. Sorry, but claiming that the "wrong means" are so simple a thing just doesn't work. He equates fighting the system to doing something wrong, regardless of how they go about it.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
After the Black Rebellion, Japan had been demoted to a 'penal colony'. It no longer even had 'area' status.
It was still an area, and as I recall it was called "remedial", but then I can't remember the dub term.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The point is that without enough actual Britannians to act as 'first class citizens', the 'second class citizen' distinction is meaningless. Season one points out that it is Britannian policy to have numbers govern their own people, and furthermore indicates that even numbers operate within a capitalist economy. This means that aside from taxation, except for areas with high density of Britannian settlement, occupation by Britannia is essentially meaningless. The difference between the majority of the EU and Japan is that Japan is a geographically small country with a highly condensed population. The idea that Britannia would even attempt to 'settle' all these conquered areas in the manner of Japan is, again, ridiculous.
There are enough of them for it to mean something anywhere. Numbers are treated like crap, and the series gives more than enough examples of this fact. Just because they have self-government (which they don't, not really, more like a regulatory body) doesn't make them equal in any fashion, because the Britannians settle in basically every city to some extent. Unless they're outright not colonizing these places, which wouldn't make any sense, any Area colony is treated exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Again, see Britannia's methods for trying to deal with the CF and EU. Peace treaties, negotiation, and political deals. Britannia has no interest in 'colonizing' everything, just in ensuring security and cooperation. The idea of enslavement, I will say again, is bullshit.
Again, look at the larger picture. Peace treatries, negotiations, and political deals in the wake of open warfare that went badly for those two. It's easy to make a treaty when you have the bigger stick, and this is Schneizel acting, not the Emperor. The idea of enslavement is exactly what they're going for. Britannia wants the whole world, and they keep taking until they get it. The only reason they didn't invade the Chinese Federation or the EU outright is because they would lose the world war that would surely follow. They don't have the manpower to keep it up. The treaties and such allow them time to regroup, then move ahead later.
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