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Old 2009-11-18, 18:54   Link #9241
azul120
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Not to mention that Suzaku in season 1 could be likened to The Fool to an extent, benefitting largely from various fortuitous events, namely getting spared from death by his father's keepsake watch, being discovered by Lloyd and Cecille which led to him gaining access to the Lancelot, and meeting Euphie.

Now you could argue that Lelouch lucked out by being given Geass, but the rest of his success rested on his smarts, charisma, organizational skills, and sheer determination.

Not to mention that the SAZ also happened after Euphie encountered Lelouch on Kaminejima Island, and subsequently Nunnally at the school festival, and had been encouraged by her meeting with Nina.
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Old 2009-11-19, 16:04   Link #9242
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
actually, we still dont know if it would have worked at all
Anime law of causality: when paradise is destroyed before being achieved, it was paradise.

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but its also not only a result of suzaku's actions

the reason the SAZ was approved was that it was a good propaganda weapon against zero and the black knights
without the growing popularity of zero among the elevens, it would never have been approved
in effect, lelouch is as much resposible for the formation of the SAZ as suzaku is (possibly more)
and without lelouch's "anti-idealism", suzaku's path would not have produced any results
its a tricky road to try and claim the SAZ as the triumph of suzaku's path
So what? So what if SAZ handily solved Britannia's Japan problem, depended on friends in high places, and was self-serving for Britannia?

It would have happened. Suzaku isn't a messiah figure who has to deliver everything himself to be validated. It merely has to happen, and Suzaku's support and connection with Euphie were as necessary for her to get the personal strength to do so as anyone else.

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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Not to mention that Suzaku in season 1 could be likened to The Fool to an extent, benefitting largely from various fortuitous events, namely getting spared from death by his father's keepsake watch, being discovered by Lloyd and Cecille which led to him gaining access to the Lancelot, and meeting Euphie.

Now you could argue that Lelouch lucked out by being given Geass, but the rest of his success rested on his smarts, charisma, organizational skills, and sheer determination.
And Russia's a pretty warm place, if you ignore the winter.

Really, that's an amazing exception to make, and ignores the number of times Lelouch lucked out thanks to his own deus ex machinas. C.C. was that deus ex a number of times.

Lelouch's successes were often dependant on Geass, which is not his own power.


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Not to mention that the SAZ also happened after Euphie encountered Lelouch on Kaminejima Island, and subsequently Nunnally at the school festival, and had been encouraged by her meeting with Nina.
Which doesn't change that it's the fulfillment of Suzaku's stated desire: change by the system, from within the system. Suzaku himself doesn't have to personally do it in order to be validated. Suzaku is a part of the environment that brings change from within.
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Old 2009-11-19, 18:20   Link #9243
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The SAZ might have been "paradise" for Lelouch and Suzaku, since they were Euphie's first concern, but other than that, it's highly questionable that it would have resulted in a change of Britannia's policies as a whole.

The difference between Lelouch's luck and Suzaku's is that Suzaku's way of going about things wasn't realistic to begin with.
Lelouch had a chance of achieving change even without luck. Suzaku, on ther other hand, would have ended as cannon fodder at best.
In many cases, Lelouch used Geass because it was the quickest solution, not the only one. In others, he needed luck because life just hated him - Mao, for example, was something he could not have seen coming, at least before he acquired Geass.

There were instances like the one where Cornelia almost got him because he was being overconfident, but without Geass, it's quite possible he would have been more careful and never even gotten into such a situation. Who knows?
In Suzaku's case, though, it's pretty clear that without the Lancelot, he would have been screwed. Well, or not, considering he wanted to die.
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Old 2009-11-19, 18:54   Link #9244
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
The SAZ might have been "paradise" for Lelouch and Suzaku, since they were Euphie's first concern, but other than that, it's highly questionable that it would have resulted in a change of Britannia's policies as a whole.

The difference between Lelouch's luck and Suzaku's is that Suzaku's way of going about things wasn't realistic to begin with.
Lelouch had a chance of achieving change even without luck. Suzaku, on ther other hand, would have ended as cannon fodder at best.
In many cases, Lelouch used Geass because it was the quickest solution, not the only one. In others, he needed luck because life just hated him - Mao, for example, was something he could not have seen coming, at least before he acquired Geass.

There were instances like the one where Cornelia almost got him because he was being overconfident, but without Geass, it's quite possible he would have been more careful and never even gotten into such a situation. Who knows?
In Suzaku's case, though, it's pretty clear that without the Lancelot, he would have been screwed. Well, or not, considering he wanted to die.
If lelouch hadn't received geass when he did, he would have been shot dead in Turn 1 and Suzaku would never have risen up the ranks in the manner that he did - self-styled as Zero's apparent main opponent.
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Old 2009-11-20, 01:48   Link #9245
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Lelouch had a chance of achieving change even without luck.
What is the basis for this? Prerequisite to Lelouch achieving any change at all is for him to actually defeat Britannia. Lelouch's revolution never succeeded even with geass--what makes it any more likely he could have done so without it?

Although Suzaku's method has a 'destroy the enemy' prerequisite too, it is a perfectly realistic way of doing things. Given the smaller size of the enemy, in fact it is moreso. Suzaku doesn't need to be alive to change Britannia, he just needs to crush any further hope of resistance--then the Japanese, driven by the necessity of making a living, and Britannia, without any provocation for further punishment, would move fully into the process of assimilation.
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Old 2009-11-20, 03:31   Link #9246
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
What is the basis for this? Prerequisite to Lelouch achieving any change at all is for him to actually defeat Britannia. Lelouch's revolution never succeeded even with geass--what makes it any more likely he could have done so without it?

Although Suzaku's method has a 'destroy the enemy' prerequisite too, it is a perfectly realistic way of doing things. Given the smaller size of the enemy, in fact it is moreso. Suzaku doesn't need to be alive to change Britannia, he just needs to crush any further hope of resistance--then the Japanese, driven by the necessity of making a living, and Britannia, without any provocation for further punishment, would move fully into the process of assimilation.
It didn't work because Suzaku stood in his way at every turn. For the entire first season he serves the purpose of a deus-ex-machina to fuck up what would otherwise be a string of successes. If he'd done it without Geass he'd have done it much later, when he was more prepared for it. Suzaku would likely be dead by then.

On the other hand, Suzaku outright would not have accomplished a thing if not for Lelouch. He'd still be a grunt sent in as cannon fodder, without any hope of promotion. Even after that, he lives off Zero. Any success he gains is done through Zero, even indirectly as with the SAZ. Suzaku never works for his goal, a few instances (KoR promotion) notwithstanding. He just expects it to be handed to him.
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Old 2009-11-20, 03:50   Link #9247
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
And Russia's a pretty warm place, if you ignore the winter.

Really, that's an amazing exception to make, and ignores the number of times Lelouch lucked out thanks to his own deus ex machinas. C.C. was that deus ex a number of times.

Lelouch's successes were often dependant on Geass, which is not his own power.
Except that Geass took skill to use properly, and without it, there are things that couldn't be achieved half as easily, if at all.

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Which doesn't change that it's the fulfillment of Suzaku's stated desire: change by the system, from within the system. Suzaku himself doesn't have to personally do it in order to be validated. Suzaku is a part of the environment that brings change from within.
This was already covered by morbosfist just now.
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Old 2009-11-20, 12:32   Link #9248
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Suzaku would've gone nowhere without Zero, that may be true, but the same can be said about Lelouch and geass. He said he was planning on destroying Britannia regardless, but his changes were pretty slim w/o geass. I guess he could always wait to become emperor, but he was 17th in line so...yeah.
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Old 2009-11-20, 13:38   Link #9249
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do i really have to point out that suzaku's path led him right into a kangaroo court that he would later be saved from by lelouch ?
after which he actually WENT BACK to it

if lelouch hadnt took the credit for it during the rescue op, suzaku would have still been hung for a crime he did not commit
he KNEW that, and he still went back

suzaku's path on its own does not lead anywhere but his own death
which one should note, is exactly what he wants
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Old 2009-11-20, 14:48   Link #9250
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Suzaku would've gone nowhere without Zero, that may be true, but the same can be said about Lelouch and geass. He said he was planning on destroying Britannia regardless, but his changes were pretty slim w/o geass. I guess he could always wait to become emperor, but he was 17th in line so...yeah.
He actually gave up his right to the throne, so being Emperor would never have happened. At any rate, without Geass, he would have started much much later, and probably with a much greater plan. Without Geass, Lelouch still had a chance. Without Zero, Suzaku only had a chance to die.
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Old 2009-11-20, 15:09   Link #9251
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Is there some definitive basis for assuming Lloyd/Cecil only found Suzaku as a result of him being shot/pulled off the battlefield? Actually, since they somehow seemed to have compatibility data about him even before he piloted in that instance, it kinda stands to reason that they'd had an eye on him for a while. Given Suzaku's superhuman physical abilities, I don't think it's all that certain he'd have remained a grunt.

As for what would qualify as Suzaku's accomplishment, you guys seem to be under the mistaken assumption that Suzaku's aim is promotion or personal power. This is mistaken. At the base level, Suzaku's goal was to wipe out resistance and terrorism, both in reality and in the people's hearts. Garnering personal accomplishments and being promoted is merely a secondary goal which encourages participation within the Empire by setting an example. His fundamental intent, however, was to force participation by necessity by leaving the Japanese no other alternative--improvement of conditions spurred by their cooperation would then occur naturally, without any need to rely on Suzaku.

edit:

I really have to wonder what Lelouch's supposed 'greater plan' would have consisted of. Zero only gained the support of the resistance movement because he was the 'man of miracles'. Without this ability to easily unbalance his opponents internally, Lelouch's strategic capabilities hardly measure up to even Cornelia. Without the 'power' of geass, and without the 'power' of a personal army, would he have had any power at all?
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Old 2009-11-20, 15:22   Link #9252
morbosfist
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Is there some definitive basis for assuming Lloyd/Cecil only found Suzaku as a result of him being shot/pulled off the battlefield? Actually, since they somehow seemed to have compatibility data about him even before he piloted in that instance, it kinda stands to reason that they'd had an eye on him for a while. Given Suzaku's superhuman physical abilities, I don't think it's all that certain he'd have remained a grunt.
The simulator scores were after they offered him the key, which means he probably took the test after recovering, and the compatibility score was after the battle. They didn't come there specifically to recruit him. The pilot they wanted, which is suggested to be Jeremiah, was busy slaughtering people, so they went with the only one available.

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As for what would qualify as Suzaku's accomplishment, you guys seem to be under the mistaken assumption that Suzaku's aim is promotion or personal power. This is mistaken. At the base level, Suzaku's goal was to wipe out resistance and terrorism, both in reality and in the people's hearts. Garnering personal accomplishments and being promoted is merely a secondary goal which encourages participation within the Empire by setting an example. His fundamental intent, however, was to force participation by necessity by leaving the Japanese no other alternative--improvement of conditions spurred by their cooperation would then occur naturally, without any need to rely on Suzaku.
It was not his goal at all to wipe out resistance and terrorism. Again, this is ignoring the character's own stated goals. He says, in no uncertain terms, that if he follows the rules he can get people to trust him. Not others, not the Japanese people as a whole, just him. Suzaku's plan is in its entirely a grasp at personal power to enact change, not using his example as a vehicle for social reform. To put it bluntly, Suzaku is too dim to think up such a plan. His intent was to change the system from within, and as a corollary to that fought those who did so from without, which in turn garnered those very promotions he sought. To claim he did it as part of a plan to inspire change indirectly is foolish.

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I really have to wonder what Lelouch's supposed 'greater plan' would have consisted of. Zero only gained the support of the resistance movement because he was the 'man of miracles'. Without this ability to easily unbalance his opponents internally, Lelouch's strategic capabilities hardly measure up to even Cornelia. Without the 'power' of geass, and without the 'power' of a personal army, would he have had any power at all?
He underestimated Cornelia the first time, that's it. Narita was won entirely without Geass. He didn't even need to Geass the soldiers in that shack. That was just a place for C.C. to stay. Removing the personal army part is just trying to diminish his ability to affect change. He could easily establish himself as a figure in the resistance without Geass. It would just take more planning.
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Old 2009-11-20, 15:50   Link #9253
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Not to mention that Cornelia had an actual army already.
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Old 2009-11-20, 16:05   Link #9254
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The simulator scores were after they offered him the key, which means he probably took the test after recovering, and the compatibility score was after the battle. They didn't come there specifically to recruit him. The pilot they wanted, which is suggested to be Jeremiah, was busy slaughtering people, so they went with the only one available.
hahahaha...so Lloyd and Cecil came to the battlefield to give simulation test to a nobody,while he was unconscious or just recovered?Also there're also tons of pilots and Britanian soldiers to choose from at the site, why choose an honorary Britanian which will surely lead to much troubles later on? The test was obviously took place earlier and they came seeking the pilot once they have the result. Suzaku was destined to have the Lancelot one way or another

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At any rate, without Geass, he would have started much much later, and probably with a much greater plan. Without Geass, Lelouch still had a chance. Without Zero, Suzaku only had a chance to die.
Do you realize that "much much later" mean that Cornelia will have more time to quell rebellions and weed out useless trashes in the army, Schniezel will have years to make compromises with the areas and Britania foes which will make Britania much more stronger and stable than its currently is. Forget about planning and preparation, LL won't even find someone who want to challenge Britania in that "much much later" of yours.

And without Zero, Suzaku would never have to face that trial nor would he get shot by his superior.
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Old 2009-11-20, 16:19   Link #9255
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hahahaha...so Lloyd and Cecil came to the battlefield to give simulation test to a nobody,while he was unconscious or just recovered?Also there're also tons of pilots and Britanian soldiers to choose from at the site, why choose an honorary Britanian which will surely lead to much troubles later on? The test was obviously took place earlier and they came seeking the pilot once they have the result. Suzaku was destined to have the Lancelot one way or another
After he was recovered, and he was not their first choice. Suzaku wasn't selected to be the pilot, he got lucky, just like Lelouch was lucky to receive Geass. Their original pilot was busy and they make it clear Suzaku was not the person they were looking for. They had plenty of time to test him in between him being revived and the Lancelot being deployed.

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Do you realize that "much much later" mean that Cornelia will have more time to quell rebellions and weed out useless trashes in the army, Schniezel will have years to make compromises with the areas and Britania foes which will make Britania much more stronger and stable than its currently is. Forget about planning and preparation, LL won't even find someone who want to challenge Britania in that "much much later" of yours.
Cornelia would never have gone to Area 11 if not for Zero, nor would she have been delpoyed anywhere but countries in the midst of being conquered. Schneizel's compromises came in the wake of Zero, before which the Chinese Federation was not willing to negotiate. There would always be people willing to challenge Britannia, no matter the circumstance.

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And without Zero, Suzaku would never have to face that trial nor would he get shot by his superior.
No, he just would have been shot in another cannon fodder engagement when he was unarmed.
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Old 2009-11-20, 16:19   Link #9256
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hahahaha...so Lloyd and Cecil came to the battlefield to give simulation test to a nobody,while he was unconscious or just recovered?Also there're also tons of pilots and Britanian soldiers to choose from at the site, why choose an honorary Britanian which will surely lead to much troubles later on? The test was obviously took place earlier and they came seeking the pilot once they have the result. Suzaku was destined to have the Lancelot one way or another.
actually, they came there to get another pilot (spculated to be jeremiah) who was deployed on the frontlines before they got there (and hence, was not available)
Lloyd laments this fact out loud
in fact, all the pilots were not free at the time
suzaku wasnt selected from the start, he was just the only one LEFT for Lloyd to try out (because he was injured)
there was no point for them to seek a pilot who they knew would never be allowed to field test the lancelot anyway (its only lelouch's actions that force clovis to OK it)

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Do you realize that "much much later" mean that Cornelia will have more time to quell rebellions and weed out useless trashes in the army, Schniezel will have years to make compromises with the areas and Britania foes which will make Britania much more stronger and stable than its currently is. Forget about planning and preparation, LL won't even find someone who want to challenge Britania in that "much much later" of yours.
considering how horrible britannia treats its "numbers" there would ALWAYS be people wanting to fight it
oppression breeds resistance.
which is ironicly the REASON why suzaku's goal is doomed from the start
britannia does not seek to integrate the numbers into their society in the first place, and would ALWAYS treat the numbers as lessers
and hence, there would never be an end to the various rebellions against it

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And without Zero, Suzaku would never have to face that trial nor would he get shot by his superior.
thats ok
i'm sure he'd be able to find some OTHER way to get himself killed
suzaku's survival is living proof that while the universe may hate lelouch, it fucking loves suzaku (or hates him, depending on how you/he views it)

1)when the "poison capsule" opens, he sticks his own gas mask on lelouch rather then himself (he's lucky its not really poison)
2)he willingly gets shot by his superior (lucky for him, his dad's watch protects him)
3) he gets sentenced to death and then after getting rescued he GOES BACK (lucky for him, his rescuer also cleared him of the charges)

and just in case you think suzaku isnt entirely about blind luck
4)he walks out of the court and by the clearest display of divine favor, a royal princess who is unique amongst her family in not being evil, litteraly FALLS INTO HIS ARMS

say what you will about suzaku
the universe seems to like him
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Old 2009-11-20, 16:28   Link #9257
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Suzaku = The Fool, Lelouch = Butt Monkey (of the universe).
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Old 2009-11-20, 17:52   Link #9258
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After he was recovered, and he was not their first choice. Suzaku wasn't selected to be the pilot, he got lucky, just like Lelouch was lucky to receive Geass. Their original pilot was busy and they make it clear Suzaku was not the person they were looking for. They had plenty of time to test him in between him being revived and the Lancelot being deployed.
Quote:
actually, they came there to get another pilot (spculated to be jeremiah) who was deployed on the frontlines before they got there (and hence, was not available)
Lloyd laments this fact out loud
in fact, all the pilots were not free at the time
suzaku wasnt selected from the start, he was just the only one LEFT for Lloyd to try out (because he was injured)
there was no point for them to seek a pilot who they knew would never be allowed to field test the lancelot anyway (its only lelouch's actions that force clovis to OK it)
All of these luck are meaningless if he wasn't able to control the machine, but he was and he even got top score.He got lucky to have a chance to pilot the Lancelot,after that it was skills because it's quite clear that an ordinary pilot can't control it


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considering how horrible britannia treats its "numbers" there would ALWAYS be people wanting to fight it
oppression breeds resistance.
which is ironicly the REASON why suzaku's goal is doomed from the start
britannia does not seek to integrate the numbers into their society in the first place, and would ALWAYS treat the numbers as lessers
and hence, there would never be an end to the various rebellions against it
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Cornelia would never have gone to Area 11 if not for Zero, nor would she have been delpoyed anywhere but countries in the midst of being conquered. Schneizel's compromises came in the wake of Zero, before which the Chinese Federation was not willing to negotiate. There would always be people willing to challenge Britannia, no matter the circumstance.
We're talking about 10-20 years into the future here, any numbers of events could have taken place. The empire wouldn't stay the same waiting for LL to get ready and it'd more likely getting stronger. There's also the question how much longer would the Ashford willing to shelter him before they try something funny. He could even run into Tamaki and some mobs in a back alley after one of his chess match and get beaten to death for being Britanian
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Old 2009-11-20, 18:26   Link #9259
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Except that Geass took skill to use properly, and without it, there are things that couldn't be achieved half as easily, if at all.
But the geass itself was a huge string of luck, and is not his own power. Even the manifistation it took of absolute domination over others, as opposed to the various other forms and abilities, is a huge string of luck (well, plot, but same point really). Attributing the effects of Geass as Lelouch's own strengths is confusing the tool's power with the weilder's. No matter how well Lelouch uses Geass, it isn't his own power. Every time he capitalizes on it, every time, he's reinforcing the gains from luck and abilities that aren't innate to him.


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This was already covered by morbosfist just now.
Morbo is, still, on my ignore list. You're welcome to make your own arguments, though. (Though I'm far too infrequent in these parts to bother often.)
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Old 2009-11-20, 18:50   Link #9260
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
The SAZ might have been "paradise" for Lelouch and Suzaku, since they were Euphie's first concern, but other than that, it's highly questionable that it would have resulted in a change of Britannia's policies as a whole.
If you want to go into doomed utopian scenarios, there's a far more obvious one that was dooming Lelouch: Britannia's ever increasing strength and nukes. You really can't stress the nukes enough, because even after two seasons of fighting it and victory after victory, building up his own personal army, tearing apart Britannia's own society and stability from within and descending it into regular revolts, and then adding the super nuke fortress of doom to the other side, Britannia's military still came on top. That's not just lopsided, that's positively stacking the deck against the Britanian forces.

In an ideal world where Lelouch raises up Japan and starts from there, he isn't going to be facing the remnants of Britannia torn apart from within, and he's still going to be facing an orbital nuke fortress down the line.

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The difference between Lelouch's luck and Suzaku's is that Suzaku's way of going about things wasn't realistic to begin with.
Lelouch had a chance of achieving change even without luck. Suzaku, on ther other hand, would have ended as cannon fodder at best.
In many cases, Lelouch used Geass because it was the quickest solution, not the only one. In others, he needed luck because life just hated him - Mao, for example, was something he could not have seen coming, at least before he acquired Geass.
Without luck, Lelouch never would have gotten Geass. Without Geass, he never would have gotten to the points that he did. And even, with much handwaving as you want, the battle and war

The collapse of the settlement, for example; even if you go exactly up to that strategic point without Geass (say Suzaku is never rescued), handwave everything to that point, it would have been impossible to collapse the final Britannia defensive lines of the Tokyo settlement without Geass. Without collapsing those lines, Lelouch won't decimate most of Cornelia's forces, won't send Britannia's last lines to the government building and abandon everything else. Cornelia or her equivalent would hold out in the fortress of the settlement holding out until Schneizel would arrive and Lelouch's uprising would lose. Lelouch isn't in a position of being powerful enough to oppose Schneizel.

The point is that Lelouch needed Geass for any chance to achieve his aims. Getting Geass is infinite luck, and without it (that luck and the Geass) Lelouch had no chance. And even with Geass, Lelouch lost the moment V.V. made a single move and retrieved Nunally in the confusion. Something that would surely happen Geass or no geass. And we know how that turned out.

Lelouch's goal was just as unrealistic as Suzaku's. Suzaku's depended on unsupported faith in Brittanians. Lelouch depended on a unknown, supernatural power for even a fighting chance, a fighting chance which was annihalated the moment Charles sent V.V. to get Nunally. Which really was inevitable, since it happened the moment Lelouch became an actual threat.
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There were instances like the one where Cornelia almost got him because he was being overconfident, but without Geass, it's quite possible he would have been more careful and never even gotten into such a situation. Who knows?
In Suzaku's case, though, it's pretty clear that without the Lancelot, he would have been screwed. Well, or not, considering he wanted to die.
And yet luck and feasibility, even motivation, really have nothing over the fact that the anime showed us something clear: Suzaku's ideals, as fanciful, unrealistic, self-serving, and everything else as they may be in your eyes, were suceding. Even Lelouch was capitulating that that impossible idealism when he changed his mind about having Euphie murder him to destroy that and instead moved to take part in it.
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