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Old 2010-02-15, 10:19   Link #9301
Sol Falling
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Similar in conception to the SAZ, Suzaku's administration could be used as a model for other colonies depending on how successful it is. Even apart from that, though, the second huge paragraph in my post talks about why logistically it wouldn't make sense for Britannia to make EU/CF territories it conquered into Areas.

I'm also pretty sure the EU isn't exactly modelled after the EU in our world, given Code Geass's alternative history and all. If I've got it right, Britannia's exodus from Europe basically took all of Europe's royal/noble families and the institution of monarchy in general along with it. Charles' comment from S1 also suggests some sort of uniform/universal democracy. I'm not certain it'd be all that accurate to assume it is similar to the EU in our world (also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't aware that our European Union had a military component? Okay, so I've never familiarized myself with world politics or current events to any real extent, but I thought the EU was exclusively a trade union).
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Old 2010-02-15, 10:32   Link #9302
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Similar in conception to the SAZ, Suzaku's administration could be used as a model for other colonies depending on how successful it is. Even apart from that, though, the second huge paragraph in my post talks about why logistically it wouldn't make sense for Britannia to make EU/CF territories it conquered into Areas.

I'm also pretty sure the EU isn't exactly modelled after the EU in our world, given Code Geass's alternative history and all. If I've got it right, Britannia's exodus from Europe basically took all of Europe's royal/noble families and the institution of monarchy in general along with it. Charles' comment from S1 also suggests some sort of uniform/universal democracy. I'm not certain it'd be all that accurate to assume it is similar to the EU in our world (also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't aware that our European Union had a military component? Okay, so I've never familiarized myself with world politics or current events to any real extent, but I thought the EU was exclusively a trade union).
our EU doesn't have a military component
their's does

but the EU isn't a single entity in the CG world
they talk about its nations (France, Poland, Italy) as separate nations repeatedly
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Old 2010-02-15, 11:45   Link #9303
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I don't really get where people get this 'Suzaku does stuff to make himself feel better' stuff when it's pretty clear he couldn't possibly consider himself more of a dirty sinner. (Also: the line azul brought up in Turn 6 is pretty much an explicit example of Suzaku refusing to dress up the fact that he is killing real people for his cause.)
Just because he considers himself a sinner does not mean he's not deluding himself about what he's doing. Turn 6 is one of the instances where he outright justifies killing, but is using Nunnally as an excuse, and yet two episodes later he lets Anya sign a man's life away because he was too afraid to do it himself. That is the delusion. Suzaku doesn't like to admit he's a killer, and doesn't truly do so until he nukes Tokyo (and even that he tried to pass the buck on at first).

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Screw whatever preconceptions those European generals' had of what constitutes a 'reasonable' battle; if the name of the Knight of Rounds' 'White Shinigami' doesn't speak enough for them, then they do deserve whatever consequences they get for not surrendering.
So a name is supposed to make people surrender automatically? You must be joking. Even a flying unit can be shot down. Suzaku simply has plot armor keeping him alive. Suzaku's request was entirely unreasonable. They were holding the line until he showed up, and had no reason to think one unit would be that much of a problem, reputation be damned.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I think one thing to remember when talking about Suzaku supposedly helping Britannia 'enslave' other countries is that, unlike the then present Britannia and Japan, Britannia and the E.U./C.F. are actually (perhaps intermittently, but certainly historically) at war. The fact is, in Code Geass it's pretty much a given that all governments are assholes anyway (go back to Lelouch and Suzaku's meeting in Picture Book 1/Stage 00 for an interesting idealogical reversal), so assuming and condemning Suzaku for enabling a 'political aggressor' like Britannia would be meaningless. Compromising with stuff like that is a fundamental assumption of 'working with the (any) system' in the first place.
Nevertheless, he's forcing veritable slavery upon millions, possibly billions, of people to help a minority. He didn't even have to participate in that EU battle. He just showed up. If he were following orders, then it might be excused. He's doing it to earn prestige, which is far worse.

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Remember, Suzaku's goal is not 'get Britannia to stop conquering countries'. It's 'get Britannia to treat conquered countries well'; countries being conquered is not a detriment under this assumption.
No, it's "get Britannia to treat Japan well." He doesn't give a shit about anywhere else. Being Knight of One only helps Japan. He'd doom the world to hell for his own slice of heaven, so to speak.

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Furthermore, speaking on Suzaku's contributions to Britannia 'enslaving' other countries in the style of Japan in general: unlike Japan, which was an independant nation, wherever it was Suzaku was fighting in Turn 4 (it was either Germany or Italy I think, but I can't remember) and more than likely anywhere else he took the field at was a part of one of the world's superpowers (the E.U. in this case).

This is because, after gaining military dominance around the time of the invasion of Japan, Britannia had already had around 8 years to conquer any of the weaker individual nations left around which it was interested in. However, considering all the military/technological advancements Britannia had been acquiring recently, it was probably in an expansionary period, even beginning to gain ground directly against its rival superpowers.

What this means is two things: first, given Britannia's much increased military potential, and given that it's recent gains are in areas much closer to the heart of it's rival superpowers, Britannia has much less incentive to consolidate/reform those areas than to convert them into staging grounds for further excursions or to use them as bargaining chips for direct negotiations. Second: given the influx of new technology, Britannia gained more room for growth/improvement so that less of its production capacity would be directed at satellite 'colonies' in the first place (I think you can see this in the state of Japan at the start of R2 for example--it is clearly not recovered from the Black Rebellion, and the general situation itself does not seem permanent or even sustainable). All this means that for me, the idea that Suzaku's contributions to Britannia's war effort would lead to anything remotely similar to new 'Area 11's is quite unlikely.
So instead of having their country enslaved it's simply razed to the ground? How is this better? One of the picture dramas has a scene where Suzaku sees first hand the lives he's affecting, when a little girl accuses him (rightfully so) of killing her parents. He just makes sure the orphaned girl will be ok and goes on his merry way. Regardless of what's happening to these countries, they are being made into territories and their citizens would become Numbers eventually.

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So let me get back to the point: as I see it, Suzaku had no reason whatsoever to feel guilty over crushing those armies, so I don't see why he'd feel the need to 'dress up' anything in the first place; and indeed, the fact that he offered them a chance to surrender at all does seem to me to have been honourable.
It'd be honorable if they would be treated fairly. They won't. Likewise, if his request were actually one he could ever expect to be honored it would be, but it isn't. He knew he was going to kill them.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Similar in conception to the SAZ, Suzaku's administration could be used as a model for other colonies depending on how successful it is. Even apart from that, though, the second huge paragraph in my post talks about why logistically it wouldn't make sense for Britannia to make EU/CF territories it conquered into Areas.
Suzaku's administration coud also be seen as harmful to the stability of the Empire, and could be blocked. It's not like he has the power to cecede. That assumes he even gets there. More to the point, it also assumes Suzaku actually thought that far ahead, when he clearly did not.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I'm also pretty sure the EU isn't exactly modelled after the EU in our world, given Code Geass's alternative history and all. If I've got it right, Britannia's exodus from Europe basically took all of Europe's royal/noble families and the institution of monarchy in general along with it. Charles' comment from S1 also suggests some sort of uniform/universal democracy. I'm not certain it'd be all that accurate to assume it is similar to the EU in our world (also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't aware that our European Union had a military component? Okay, so I've never familiarized myself with world politics or current events to any real extent, but I thought the EU was exclusively a trade union).
This EU has a multi-national army culled from its member nations.
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Old 2010-02-15, 13:33   Link #9304
azul120
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Besides, the Britannian MO is to look down on Numbers. And you say that the defending armies deserved what they got? Nothing personal meant, but you know, you should be a comedian.

Edit: Not to mention that my point about Kirihara and the others still stands in light of Suzaku's direction in R2, especially since he was still a death seeker. In other words, he was looking for fulfilling himself rather than working for the common good.

Last edited by azul120; 2010-02-15 at 13:56.
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Old 2010-02-15, 14:13   Link #9305
Revolutionist
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The panzers were no match for the Lancelot, Suzaku knew this and told them they could surrender. The EU commanders should've been aware of the capabilities of the Rounds' machines. Had they been so, Suzaku's request would not have seemed as ridiculous...
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Old 2010-02-15, 14:15   Link #9306
azul120
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You're basically saying that might makes right.
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Old 2010-02-15, 14:20   Link #9307
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
The panzers were no match for the Lancelot, Suzaku knew this and told them they could surrender. The EU commanders should've been aware of the capabilities of the Rounds' machines. Had they been so, Suzaku's request would not have seemed as ridiculous...
i'm surprised no one has pointed this out yet but...
PEOPLE WHO FIGHT TO DEFEND THEIR HOMES AND FAMILIES DON'T SURRENDER !!!
why would they
surrendering is something you do to avoid dying because you want to live
if surrendering also destroys the things you live FOR, then its not an option
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Old 2010-02-15, 14:25   Link #9308
azul120
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i'm surprised no one has pointed this out yet but...
PEOPLE WHO FIGHT TO DEFEND THEIR HOMES AND FAMILIES DON'T SURRENDER !!!
why would they
surrendering is something you do to avoid dying because you want to live
if surrendering also destroys the things you live FOR, then its not an option
I guess I felt that that had been insinuated, what with all the "Britannians reduce Numbers to second class citizens with no identity of their own" business, and reiterating that might be pointless.
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Old 2010-02-15, 14:47   Link #9309
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i'm surprised no one has pointed this out yet but...
PEOPLE WHO FIGHT TO DEFEND THEIR HOMES AND FAMILIES DON'T SURRENDER !!!
why would they
surrendering is something you do to avoid dying because you want to live
if surrendering also destroys the things you live FOR, then its not an option
And how are the decisions made by other people Suzaku's fault? He gave them the chance to surrender and live, which is more than they would get from someone else. When they refused he did his job and made them die for their countries.
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Old 2010-02-15, 14:55   Link #9310
bladeofdarkness
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And how are the decisions made by other people Suzaku's fault? He gave them the chance to surrender and live, which is more than they would get from someone else. When they refused he did his job and made them die for their countries.
no...
what he gave them is a chance to surrender and condemn their loved ones to a life of being treated like shit by their new britannian overlords
which might SEEM like "more than they would get from someone else"
until you remember that before suzaku shows up, they are WINNING

which DOES make it his fault for their decision
suzaku doesn't "give them a chance to surrender" rather then simply be killed
suzaku is the one who FORCES them into this position where they have to choose between the two options
he's the only reason why they ended up losing the battle
if he didn't step in, britannia's invading forces would have LOST

and while they are fighting for their countries
he can't even claim THAT much
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Old 2010-02-15, 14:58   Link #9311
Nogitsune
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And how are the decisions made by other people Suzaku's fault?
They are not.
His own decisions, however, are. If I decide to fight for a power-hungry Empire, for whatever reasons, then I'm responsible for the obvious consequences.

Quote:
He gave them the chance to surrender and live, which is more than they would get from someone else.
"What? It's his own fault I killed him! I told him that if he gave me his house, wife and first-born son, I'd let him go! That's more than he would have gotten from any other psychopathic robber!"

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When they refused he did his job and made them die for their countries.
A job he chose himself.
Actually, I think morbosfist said all that needs to be said on Suzaku's understanding of "justice".
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Old 2010-02-15, 15:02   Link #9312
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And how are the decisions made by other people Suzaku's fault? He gave them the chance to surrender and live, which is more than they would get from someone else. When they refused he did his job and made them die for their countries.
He can offer the chance to surrender midway through the battle when they see his capabilities instead of showing up anouncing they should surrender now. But I doubt the conqueree would surrender because that means giving up on there love ones.
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Old 2010-02-15, 15:03   Link #9313
bladeofdarkness
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He can offer the chance to surrender midway through the battle when they see his capabilities instead of showing up anouncing they should surrender now.
fuck that
he can NOT TAKE PART in the battle to begin wiht
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Old 2010-02-15, 15:08   Link #9314
Knightrunner
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fuck that
he can NOT TAKE PART in the battle to begin wiht
The fact is that Suzaku went to battle. He can go into battle even though he as no right into it because he can only gain. Telling the enemy to surrender (even though I would seriously doubt they would) midway through battle is more logical to save more lives and gives him a slightly better standing.
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Old 2010-02-15, 15:13   Link #9315
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fuck that
he can NOT TAKE PART in the battle to begin wiht
Yes he can, and he did lol.

Suzaku was part of the Britannian armed forces, and as such he can partake in battle. Him killing all those people ended the battle earlier and ultimately saved lives on both sides.
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Old 2010-02-15, 15:19   Link #9316
bladeofdarkness
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The fact is that Suzaku went to battle. He can go into battle even though he as no right into it because he can only gain. Telling the enemy to surrender (even though I would seriously doubt they would) midway through battle is more logical to save more lives and gives him a slightly better standing.
once he chose to do the FIRST part (actually taking part in the fight) it doesn't MATTER what else he does
he's not going to GET any better standings, because he's doing something he shouldn't be doing in the first place
you don't get points off for killing people because you were NICE about it

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Yes he can, and he did lol.

Suzaku was part of the Britannian armed forces, and as such he can partake in battle. Him killing all those people ended the battle earlier and ultimately saved lives on both sides.
i didn't mean he CANT fight in the battle
i mean he could and SHOULD have chosen NOT to fight in it
saving britannian invaders is not "saving lives", and since he just ended up killing the defending forces, he condemned the civilain population to britannian occupation
letting britannia bleed itself dry against as many fronts as possible is a better choice, since it makes them more likely to give up
suzaku helping britannia conquer other nations is not excusable

especially since he doesn't even have a nationalist excuse for it
since britannian is not his country
and he cant even claim ignorance
people like gino who are pro-britannia because they we're born there and never had to experience first hand what its like to be under its occupation can at least claim that much
suzaku KNOWS what its like to be under britannian occupation, and yet forces that same fate on others
there is no excuse for it
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Old 2010-02-15, 15:20   Link #9317
Knightrunner
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Yes he can, and he did lol.

Suzaku was part of the Britannian armed forces, and as such he can partake in battle. Him killing all those people ended the battle earlier and ultimately saved lives on both sides.
imagine if the Round knight of 10 interfered in that battle

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once he chose to do the FIRST part (actually taking part in the fight) it doesn't MATTER what else he does
he's not going to GET any better standings, because he's doing something he shouldn't be doing in the first place
you don't get points off for killing people because you were NICE about it
For when he is talking to his Round Knight friends, he can say he gave them the chance to surrender, but they didn't take it.

Last edited by Knightrunner; 2010-02-15 at 15:31.
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Old 2010-02-15, 15:25   Link #9318
bladeofdarkness
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imagine if the Round knight of 10 interfered in that battle
whats the difference ?

aside, of course, from bradly having an actual REASON to fight (since britannia is his country)
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Old 2010-02-15, 15:29   Link #9319
azul120
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A full on massacre, that's what.
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Old 2010-02-15, 15:31   Link #9320
bladeofdarkness
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A full on massacre, that's what.
as opposed to what actually happened ?
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