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Old 2011-07-14, 06:53   Link #9461
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
I wouldn't consider the ZR an ideal solution in that regard. Strictly speaking it does fulfill both objectives, but at the cost of horrible atrocities, far worse than either base plan would have gone.

Rebellion doesn't need to further the chains of hatred, certainly not indefinitely. Had the rebellion succeeded conventionally, it would have eventually forced a situation in which Britannia would either be forced to the table or stuck in a perpetual Cold War in the worst case scenario. Regardless, there would be peace, even if the two were separate. Suzaku's idea of peace could be easily likened to some rather unfortunate occurrences in American history, which I doubt I need to actually bring up.

All in all, ZR is an extreme, no-holds barred method of forcing peace on everyone. Rebellion can end any one of a number of ways, but successfully at least it can bring equality. Submission to an invading power, however, leaves little hope for a favorable outcome, not in the sense that the identity of those conquered gets to remain in any significant form.
lol. I'm not about to start up the debate again over here in this thread. I'll just note, then, that from my perspective, the only 'atrocities' which Zero: Requiem required which were not already necessitated by the conflict with Schniezel would be the mass assassinations or executions of the conflict/war promoting elements within Britannia (and possibly elsewhere). Frankly, though, as in even Charles/Marianne's story the Britannian nobles/aristocrats were painted as the true villains, this to me comes off as a rather natural thing to include in the ending.

As for submission leaving little hope for a favourable outcome--in the end, this is only if you look at it through the lens of national identity being the most important thing. While I can of course agree that preserving that sense of identity is a strength of the path of outright revolution, integration comes with its own strengths--among them, economic development.
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Old 2011-07-14, 15:04   Link #9462
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol. I'm not about to start up the debate again over here in this thread. I'll just note, then, that from my perspective, the only 'atrocities' which Zero: Requiem required which were not already necessitated by the conflict with Schniezel would be the mass assassinations or executions of the conflict/war promoting elements within Britannia (and possibly elsewhere). Frankly, though, as in even Charles/Marianne's story the Britannian nobles/aristocrats were painted as the true villains, this to me comes off as a rather natural thing to include in the ending.
C. C. says that the nobles that had been assassinated had a basic right to object to their loss of privilege.

And let's not forget how Lelouch geassed all of his soldiers into complete obedience and made them wear masks, and used them as expendables. On top of that, he also detonated Mt. Fuji, which would have caused no small amount of damage over Japan.

Not to mention anything else he would have had to do in order to make himself the worst tyrant in the world.

Quote:
As for submission leaving little hope for a favourable outcome--in the end, this is only if you look at it through the lens of national identity being the most important thing. While I can of course agree that preserving that sense of identity is a strength of the path of outright revolution, integration comes with its own strengths--among them, economic development.
There was no hope of even that under old Britannia. The Honorary system, which still meant its applicants were second class citizens, was nothing more than snake oil. And even that was too much for many Britannians, who wanted it eliminated outright.
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Old 2011-07-26, 08:51   Link #9463
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I don't mind with Suzaku movement during his time in R2.

It's natural as Euphimia is died, and Lelouch actions which leads to her death just make a justification it'll be much better ( less casualties ) to change the world from the system.

The only thing I can't understand from Suzaku is,
He's taking Schniezel side to take the fastest route to be the Knight of One.

Did he forgot, it's because of Schniezel, Lelouch ended up thinking Suzaku betrayed him ?
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Old 2011-07-26, 12:06   Link #9464
azul120
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He only cares about becoming the Knight of One in order to gain jurisdiction over Japan. He isn't really concerned with the rest of the world. Infact, he's responsible for many EU nations falling to Brittannia as Knight of Seven.

And he works with Schneizel simply because he sees it as the quickest means to becoming KoO, and by then, he's finally acknowledged that it's about the results. Of course, Suzaku's never really known what he's doing, as he's been constantly been used by Charles and Schniezel.
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Old 2011-08-01, 08:48   Link #9465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
He only cares about becoming the Knight of One in order to gain jurisdiction over Japan. He isn't really concerned with the rest of the world. Infact, he's responsible for many EU nations falling to Brittannia as Knight of Seven.

And he works with Schneizel simply because he sees it as the quickest means to becoming KoO, and by then, he's finally acknowledged that it's about the results. Of course, Suzaku's never really known what he's doing, as he's been constantly been used by Charles and Schniezel.
My problem comes when he's taking his sword by saying,

"This is for Lelouch and Nunnally !"

By this logic, he's supposed to kill Schniezel first rather than taking Emperor and Bismarck first.

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Old 2011-08-01, 20:02   Link #9466
azul120
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Charles started it by abandoning Lelouch and Nunnally in the first place.
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Old 2012-02-14, 15:01   Link #9467
DarkyPwnz
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Suzaku,with his hyprocritical and erronous views of peace,is the most annoying character I've ever seen. Lelouch should have just got rid of him when he got the chance.

He should have been more worried about Kallen,Shirley and other people who actually cared about him. Death of Suzaku would have probably done more good than bad.

Cornelia would have been captured much earlier,BK would get even more support and perhaps grow big enough to take Japan over before Euphy's SAZ thing would work.
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Old 2012-02-14, 15:52   Link #9468
Jasanime
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I wasn't really a fan of Suzaka, but I think he played a very important role. He was Lelouch's first (and one of his only) true friends, and the value Lelouch places on this friendship throughout the series is a big part of what helps viewers empathise with Lelouch.

Also without Suzaka, we couldn't have had the epic ending to R2, I personally LOVED the final episode.
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Old 2012-02-16, 21:09   Link #9469
azul120
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I think you can also blame a lot on Villetta.
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Old 2012-02-17, 11:52   Link #9470
brolyeuphyfusion
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I would have considered Suzaku an okay character if it weren't for his mental problems! He thinks his girlfriend(Shirley) is dead yet she is alive(at least for the first 13 episodes)
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Old 2012-02-17, 14:13   Link #9471
ChocoBar9
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To 5 years later I still laugh at people's irrational hate of Suzaku
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Originally Posted by brolyeuphyfusion View Post
I would have considered Suzaku an okay character if it weren't for his mental problems! He thinks his girlfriend(Shirley) is dead yet she is alive(at least for the first 13 episodes)
Wh...what?
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Old 2012-02-17, 14:31   Link #9472
DarkyPwnz
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Originally Posted by brolyeuphyfusion View Post
I would have considered Suzaku an okay character if it weren't for his mental problems! He thinks his girlfriend(Shirley) is dead yet she is alive(at least for the first 13 episodes)
Shirley was never his girlfriend.
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Old 2012-02-17, 15:22   Link #9473
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by brolyeuphyfusion View Post
I would have considered Suzaku an okay character if it weren't for his mental problems! He thinks his girlfriend(Shirley) is dead yet she is alive(at least for the first 13 episodes)
This guy seems to think that Euphie was a homicidal maniac who secretly wanted to massacre the Japanese or the Britannians too...
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Old 2012-02-17, 15:38   Link #9474
DarkyPwnz
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20 bucks says he is American.
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Old 2012-02-22, 22:35   Link #9475
AutarchSeverian
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Considering the username, I feel like he is a joke account.

EDIT: On the subject of Suzaku, I can't believe he was made a knight by Euphy after he let that camera get destroyed and let Tamaki and the other incognito terrorists get away without death.

Last edited by AutarchSeverian; 2012-02-24 at 16:01.
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Old 2012-02-27, 03:23   Link #9476
brolyeuphyfusion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
This guy seems to think that Euphie was a homicidal maniac who secretly wanted to massacre the Japanese or the Britannians too...
It is fact, you just can't understand that Euphemia hates Britannians more than anything
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Old 2012-02-27, 09:58   Link #9477
NoemiChan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brolyeuphyfusion View Post
It is fact, you just can't understand that Euphemia hates Britannians more than anything
She does? Oh, she doesn't?!
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Old 2012-02-27, 19:50   Link #9478
azul120
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Originally Posted by AutarchSeverian View Post
Considering the username, I feel like he is a joke account.

EDIT: On the subject of Suzaku, I can't believe he was made a knight by Euphy after he let that camera get destroyed and let Tamaki and the other incognito terrorists get away without death.
1) If they were incognito, how would they be discovered?
2) That just wasn't how Euphie rolled.
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Old 2012-02-27, 22:43   Link #9479
brolyeuphyfusion
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Give me proof of your claims DarkyPwnz and GenjiChan
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Old 2012-02-27, 23:48   Link #9480
AutarchSeverian
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
1) If they were incognito, how would they be discovered?
2) That just wasn't how Euphie rolled.
1) I was just using the label "incognito terrorists" to make it clear who I was talking about (Tamaki plus two other Naota/Ohgi-group members).
2)True...until Lelouch fixed her.
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