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Old 2008-05-14, 00:00   Link #1141
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Yes, although I consider Britannia to be MUCH kinder than the Japanese.

For all I can see, Area 11 is the Indian Crown Colony.
Hmmm, I don't know. Japanese people are pretty much relegated to "ghettos". Do you really see many Japanese civilians around, even though the setting is really Japan? They don't really seem well off to me. I saw a scene with a Japanese in one of the Britannia areas. The vendor. He was pretty much beaten until he was rescued.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:03   Link #1142
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
Hmmm, I don't know. Japanese people are pretty much relegated to "ghettos". Do you really see many Japanese civilians around, even though the setting is really Japan? They don't really seem well off to me. I saw a scene with a Japanese in one of the Britannia areas. The vendor. He was pretty much beaten until he was rescued.
At least they don't go around killing civilians for nothing (although Clovis was an $^%$&% for destroying one of the ghettoes while trying to get C.C.), assimilating the culture, completely starving the Japanese, etc.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:03   Link #1143
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
I agree with you that there is no set of rules that governs everyone's thoughts.

I'm not really saying that Suzaku is wrong. I am saying that the justifications given by Suzaku for his actions do not justify what he is doing.

That means either:

A) Suzaku is lying about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action).

or

B) Suzaku is retarded and ignorant and cannot rationalize his thoughts.

or

C) It's just poor work done by the writing staff and swept under the rug and just shrugged off.

or

D) Suzaku is schizophrenic.
:P man, did you even actually read what I wrote? If you're looking for a rationalization of Suzaku's thoughts, I just provided it right there. Next time you find yourself thinking that Suzaku did something that's contradicting himself and feel like writing it off as bad writing, read that again and think about whether Suzaku's actions violate these two principles:

A) Rules must be followed
or
B) Those who follow rules must not be hurt

If it doesn't, then Suzaku is being a totally consistent and rational person, okay?
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:05   Link #1144
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
A) Rules must be followed
or
B) Those who follow rules must not be hurt

If it doesn't, then Suzaku is being a totally consistent and rational person, okay?
One argument that can be made against that is: Are the rules sensible?


Of course, our Suzaku doesn't really concern himself with such ideas.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:06   Link #1145
DJ_RockmanX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
One argument that can be made against that is: Are the rules sensible?


Of course, our Suzaku doesn't really concern himself with such ideas.
Methinks that Suzaku is playing by his own set of rules, like Lelouch is.

And look at what happens when you play in the same game with two different rulebooks.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:08   Link #1146
Irenicus
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Yes, although I consider Britannia to be MUCH kinder than the Japanese.

For all I can see, Area 11 is the Indian Crown Colony.
For Britannians. Japanese are pretty much driven into ghettos with no rule of law attached.

Even Clovis -- Clovis -- ordered a massacre of an entire ghetto without a blink of an eye after all. And it was accepted by the troops, the media, and the Britannian colonists like nothing happened. Sure, the common colonists didn't exactly explicitly *know* of these massacres, but it's not like many of them would care even if they do know.

The British had their share of crimes and oppression in the subcontinent (ignored by nostalgia-tinted outlooks of some "pro-Imperial" British as if nonexistent), but Britannia really is off the charts in "Evil Empire" status I think.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:10   Link #1147
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
One argument that can be made against that is: Are the rules sensible?


Of course, our Suzaku doesn't really concern himself with such ideas.
Yeah, that's pretty much his major flaw. On the other hand, Lelouch doesn't bother considering that question either: he's gonna destroy Britannia, regardless of whether they're decent people (i.e. Clovis).

Oh, and also, I'd butt into your conversation about how the Japanese are treated and mention that the six noble families of Japan, as well as the many dozens of other candidates Lelouch had for head of the Kyoto house, indicate that there were quite a few Japanese who were living in decent conditions.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:11   Link #1148
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
For Britannians. Japanese are pretty much driven into ghettos with no rule of law attached.
Which was no different from India.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Even Clovis -- Clovis -- ordered a massacre of an entire ghetto without a blink of an eye after all.
To get C.C. on which his life probably depended upon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
And it was accepted by the troops, the media, and the Britannian colonists like nothing happened. Sure, the common colonists didn't exactly explicitly *know* of these massacres, but it's not like many of them would care even if they do know..
Which is the same even today, although mass murder wouldn't be as tolerated.


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but Britannia really is off the charts in "Evil Empire" status I think.
You mean Britian, or have I missundertood your original meaning?
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:13   Link #1149
DJ_RockmanX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
To get C.C. on which his life probably depended upon.
Don't give him the right to play God and end the lives of countless innocents in the process.

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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Which is the same even today, although mass murder wouldn't be as tolerated.
I hate ignorance, and that was one reason for my early hatred of Suzaku.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:15   Link #1150
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
:P man, did you even actually read what I wrote? If you're looking for a rationalization of Suzaku's thoughts, I just provided it right there. Next time you find yourself thinking that Suzaku did something that's contradicting himself and feel like writing it off as bad writing, read that again and think about whether Suzaku's actions violate these two principles:

A) Rules must be followed
or
B) Those who follow rules must not be hurt

If it doesn't, then Suzaku is being a totally consistent and rational person, okay?
Huh?

Which rules though? Whose rules? Any rules that are already in place? Japan's rules? Britannia's rules? Suzaku's rules that for some reason do not apply to Britannia?

So, those 2 criterias work only for Japanese or rebels and not his Britannian masters? Would those rules apply to the Emperor?

If it was a weak nation who invaded Japan instead of Britannia, would Suzaku still kill his father? Weak nation or strong nation, there is still hurting of innocents, so to stop the bloodshed, Suzaku needs to commit patricide?
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:16   Link #1151
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by DJ_RockmanX View Post
Don't give him the right to play God and end the lives of countless innocents in the process.
I didn't say he had a right: I'm just saying it's not your usual case of Britannian oppression.


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I hate ignorance, and that was one reason for my early hatred of Suzaku.
That we can agree on.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:19   Link #1152
DJ_RockmanX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
Huh?

Which rules though? Whose rules? Any rules that are already in place? Britannia's rules? Suzaku's rules that for some reason do not apply to Britannia?

So, those 2 criterias work only for Japanese or rebels and not his Britannian masters? Would those rules apply to the Emperor?
Suzaku's rulebook, page 27. Compare and contrast with Lelouch's rulebook, page 34.

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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
If it was a weak nation who invaded Japan instead of Britannia, would Suzaku still kill his father? Weak nation or strong nation, there is still hurting of innocents, so to stop the bloodshed, I need to kill my father?
I think we really need a better picture of the circumstances in which Suzaku killed his father. That whole "I did it to save the people!' thing to me just sounds like a whole lot of self-justification for killing his dad.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:26   Link #1153
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Don't give him the right to play God and end the lives of countless innocents in the process.
More like he was using it to cover up. If word got out about C.C. then he'd be disowned and such. Probably even worse if Daddy found out he was playing with C.C.

Quote:
I think we really need a better picture of the circumstances in which Suzaku killed his father. That whole "I did it to save the people!' thing to me just sounds like a whole lot of self-justification for killing his dad.
Why can't we just stick with a spur of the moment unless otherwise noted?

Kid was desperate to do something and in that rage he killed his father.

I mean he fell into shock after that.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:27   Link #1154
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More like he was using it to cover up. If word got out about C.C. then he'd be disowned and such. Probably even worse if Daddy found out he was playing with C.C.
Still doesn't make it right...

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Why can't we just stick with a spur of the moment unless otherwise noted?

Kid was desperate to do something and in that rage he killed his father.

I mean he fell into shock after that.
Yeah, he's a messed up guy. He's made some progress, but he's still pretty messed up.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:28   Link #1155
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
For Britannians. Japanese are pretty much driven into ghettos with no rule of law attached.

Even Clovis -- Clovis -- ordered a massacre of an entire ghetto without a blink of an eye after all. And it was accepted by the troops, the media, and the Britannian colonists like nothing happened. Sure, the common colonists didn't exactly explicitly *know* of these massacres, but it's not like many of them would care even if they do know.

The British had their share of crimes and oppression in the subcontinent (ignored by nostalgia-tinted outlooks of some "pro-Imperial" British as if nonexistent), but Britannia really is off the charts in "Evil Empire" status I think.
Given the fact that the Britannian royal family disowned Euphie and called her a traitor I doubt even the citizens of Britannia could stomach such violent acts.

Regardless of how brutal the romans were even they had their limits to such violent and oppressive acts.

Quote:
Still doesn't make it right...
No one said it was right

I didn't say he had a right: I'm just saying it's not your usual case of Britannian oppression.

Quote:
but he's still pretty messed up.
Dude killed his father at such a young age, of course he's messed up.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:30   Link #1156
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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Originally Posted by DJ_RockmanX View Post
Suzaku's rulebook, page 27. Compare and contrast with Lelouch's rulebook, page 34.
Haha.

But, at least Lelouch mans up and knows that some of the stuff is wrong. He just feels like he has no choice but to continue.

Suzaku needs to continually make himself feel like he is one of the good guys.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ_RockmanX View Post
I think we really need a better picture of the circumstances in which Suzaku killed his father. That whole "I did it to save the people!' thing to me just sounds like a whole lot of self-justification for killing his dad.
Yes, that would be Option A)

A) Suzaku is lying with/about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action).

What he used as justification isn't the real reason why he did it.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:32   Link #1157
DJ_RockmanX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
Haha.

But, at least Lelouch mans up and knows that some of the stuff is wrong. He just feels like he has no choice but to continue.

Suzaku needs to continually make himself feel like he is one of the good guys.
Yeah that's one thing that hasn't exactly changed with him, and pretty much the number one reason me no like the guy.

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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
Yes, that would be Option A)

A) Suzaku is lying with/about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action).

What he used as justification isn't the real reason why he did it.
Me really wants to know why he done it. Perhaps I might feel vaguely sorry for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Given the fact that the Britannian royal family disowned Euphie and called her a traitor I doubt even the citizens of Britannia could stomach such violent acts.

Regardless of how brutal the romans were even they had their limits to such violent and oppressive acts.

No one said it was right

I didn't say he had a right: I'm just saying it's not your usual case of Britannian oppression.
Yeah, but trying to justify it using the Britannian/oppressor perspective irks me.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Dude killed his father at such a young age, of course he's messed up.
Lelouch can only dream of having done the same.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:37   Link #1158
SoldierOfDarkness
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But, at least Lelouch mans up and knows that some of the stuff is wrong. He just feels like he has no choice but to continue.

Suzaku needs to continually make himself feel like he is one of the good guys.
I find it amusing how everyone remembers every detail of Lelouch and justifies his acts so long as he sheds a tear.

Yet everyone completely forgets every detail of Suzaku where he admits that he's a son of a ****, a terrible person, and someone who doesn't deserve to even be a honored knight of Britannia. I mean if that doesn't stand out saying that he knows that his actions are descipiable then I don't know what else to say.

Quote:
Yeah, but trying to justify it using the Britannian/oppressor perspective irks me.
Hey we justify Lelouch's murderous and traitiorous acts. Surely we can be more lenient with people like Clovis.

Even Toudo told Suzaku himself, once you choose your path then you'd better stick to that path to the end, regardless of what happens.

ANd since when did he say he's on the good guys' side? In fact where did ANYONE say they are the good guys?
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:39   Link #1159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I find it amusing how everyone remembers every detail of Lelouch and justifies his acts so long as he sheds a tear.

Yet everyone completely forgets every detail of Suzaku where he admits that he's a son of a ****, a terrible person, and someone who doesn't deserve to even be a honored knight of Britannia. I mean if that doesn't stand out saying that he knows that his actions are descipiable then I don't know what else to say.



Hey we justify Lelouch's murderous and traitiorous acts. Surely we can be more lenient with people like Clovis.

Even Toudo told Suzaku himself, once you choose your path then you'd better stick to that path to the end, regardless of what happens.

ANd since when did he say he's on the good guys' side? In fact where did ANYONE say they are the good guys?
Intended perspective of the audience. That is the only answer.
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Old 2008-05-14, 00:47   Link #1160
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I find it amusing how everyone remembers every detail of Lelouch and justifies his acts so long as he sheds a tear.

Yet everyone completely forgets every detail of Suzaku where he admits that he's a son of a ****, a terrible person, and someone who doesn't deserve to even be a honored knight of Britannia. I mean if that doesn't stand out saying that he knows that his actions are descipiable then I don't know what else to say.

Hey we justify Lelouch's murderous and traitiorous acts. Surely we can be more lenient with people like Clovis.
Did someone recently say that Lelouch was a good guy, and what he is doing is a good thing? He's the protagonist, but that doesn't necessarily make him "good" morally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Even Toudo told Suzaku himself, once you choose your path then you'd better stick to that path to the end, regardless of what happens.

ANd since when did he say he's on the good guys' side? In fact where did ANYONE say they are the good guys?
So, Suzaku made those exact justifications for his own actions to make himself seem like a bad guy?
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